SME Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 So has anyone put their names on the list for the A4-20k? I'm seriously contemplating that direction given as little as $200 price differential and the four channel capability. With four channels of amp, I could replace my near field mid bass modules with full subs and continue to run my custom EQ, for a grand total of 8 woofers. I have a rough design in mind of some cabinets for dual-opposed HST-18s, but am eager to see T/S specs for the HST-15 before making any final decisions. I imagine the eight HST-18 may be more than I need for all but the most taxing content. The HST-12 appears to offer more displacement vs. box volume than the HST-18, so I imagine the HST-15 will fall in the middle and still reduce box volume requirements a bit. Of course, it's the mounting depth + surround overhang that constrains the length of the longest dimension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I posted the T/S for the HST15D2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I posted the T/S for the HST15D2 Thanks! Err, where did you post them? Edit: Nevermind. I found them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemX Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 The only published music in the same league that I own is "Best of Kodo", which is also brutal test of a system, particularly with regard to mid and upper bass. It'll destroy your mains if you let it. I play it at least +3 from theatrical reference, and it should probably be played a bit higher still. I've heard them play in real life in a very well designed concert hall, and the chest pounding was pretty epic. So, I picked up a copy of this 'Best of Kodo' CD... Levels seemed to vary across some of the different tracks but the 'Monochrome' one was soooooo quiet! I had it on in the background while making dinner and I thought the CD had finished until 2 minutes later a loud bit came up lol I ended up playing it at Reference (0.0) on the AVR but the loud bits really are loud then, and as it was gone 11pm, I didn't think I should annoy the neighbours again... haha I will play it again tomorrow but louder, when most of them are out Thanks for the recommendation, I love me some good drumming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Thanks! Err, where did you post them? Edit: Nevermind. I found them. Post 12 has my T/S for the newer 15HSTD2. Post 10 was the prototype from years ago. And where did Bosso mention he was going to be building the A4-20K? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Post 12 has my T/S for the newer 15HSTD2. Post 10 was the prototype from years ago. And where did Bosso mention he was going to be building the A4-20K? He didn't say if he was going to build it. He only said that there'd be a minimum buy-in to get the best price. See post #1052. There he says it's "2 channel", but I think that's a typo. (Is it?) The specs are given in post, and they indicate that it's a 4 channel amp with the option of running 2 channels bridged. While I reckon I'd have no problem using that power for 8 HST woofers, my primary interest in it over the A-14k is the 4 independent channels for a low price. I'd rather not give up my ability to do signal processing on 4 independent sub channels, and two A14k amps would be very expensive. Based on the specs of your woofers, I'm leaning toward HST15s over HST-18s. It looks like HST-15 mates much better to the box size I have in mind. For that box size, it looks like I'll get more output per watt at the bottom end using 15s vs. 18s in the same numbers. Presumably, that also means I'll get less distortion with ULF heavy content, until excursion becomes the dominant contributor to distortion. At the same time, the HST-18s do have 3 dB more to give if the amps can get them there, and I'm doubting that I will be satisfied with only 4 x 15" woofers. Nevertheless, I'm not sure even the A4-20k is up to the task of driving 8 x HST-18s in the enclosure size I have in mind. It may take 2 x A14k amps anyway. So I'm thinking that if the A4-20k is likely to materialize soon, then I'll buy one to drive 8 x HST-15d2 woofers. Otherwise, I'll get 4 x HST-18d2 woofers and an A-14k amp and plan on adding a separate amp if I ever opt to upgrade my near-field mid-bass modules with something DIY. Edit: I just looked at the numbers again, and the output per watt advantage of the 15s over the 18s is only very slight (1 dB?), even at 10 Hz and is gone by 20 Hz. I guess the 18s are still looking real good from here. Edit2: In case anyone is wondering, I'm aiming for a box size roughly between 5 and 6 cuft for each dual-opposed woofer pair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 The HST18 will play fine in an even smaller box size, where 5 cuft is almost even on the big size for it. You should be in excellent shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 SME how big is your room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 The HST18 will play fine in an even smaller box size, where 5 cuft is almost even on the big size for it. You should be in excellent shape. HST-18s. Two of them in a 5-6 cuft box or rather, 2.5-3 cuft per woofer. That yields a Qtc between 0.79 and 0.85, which is a bit high. I can easily use DSP to compensate the frequency/temporal response, but I cannot get back the lost efficiency at the bottom end where I actually need it. I'll probably do it anyway and just plan on dedicating most or all of the A-14k to 4 of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 SME how big is your room? I'm not sure how to correctly answer this. My room is a living room that is open to the rest of the house. The finished part is about 9000 cuft, and there is a full basement for air to leak into. It may be the case that not much ULF will be lost down the hall to the bedrooms, so going by the size of the living room / dining room / kitchen area / entry way, I have about 4000 cuft. From the data I have (no sealed subs in here to measure with) I estimate that 4 HST-18s at Xmax will get me 115-120 dB at 10 Hz. I am hopeful I land on the high side of that range and that ULF room gain is good to me. I'd like to be able to hit 5 Hz at 115 dB and maintain a relatively mild roll-off to below 3 Hz, but I don't know that I can achieve that in this space without 8 x HST18s. At that point, things begin to look a bit absurd. I'm more inclined to wait until I have a dedicated room before going for the last few Hz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted June 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 So basically 4000 cubes open to steps to a basement? Dave's space is roughly 3500 cubes and open to stairs that lead to his 1st floor and he has plenty of ULF so you should be alright. Should. Four 18's are at least 34 liters so it'd be close. I think you should do 8 though just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 So basically 4000 cubes open to steps to a basement? Dave's space is roughly 3500 cubes and open to stairs that lead to his 1st floor and he has plenty of ULF so you should be alright. Should. Four 18's are at least 34 liters so it'd be close. I think you should do 8 though just in case. Almost. It's 4000 cubes open to a hall with bedrooms off of it. There are leaky doors between the basement and garage. If Dave's is an open stairway, then I have reason to believe I will get similar performance as he. I want to start with 4 because it might be enough. Looking again at the numbers, I think I'll want a full A-14k pushing those 4 woofers. If I end up wanting 4 more, then I'll have to get another A-14k amp too. At least, that way, I won't be wasting their potential. It should be a compact yet potent combination. I'll make a build thread when I get started. Right now, I'm insanely busy with looking for a new job. It will be an interesting experiment because I'm a real novice when it comes to woodwork and most non-computer DIY. OTOH, I have a strong motivation to learn, not just for sub building but for custom speaker enclosures, baffles and room treatments. Once I get the time to finish my current woodworking project, I'll have the confidence to jump into sub construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted June 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 You seem like a smart guy so I'm sure you'll be fine. Especially if you're already doing a woodworking project. That means you have some skill. Me OTOH, I have none, which is why I bought Raptors. Yah Dave's room is open to the downstairs and his other entrance is just a standard hollow core door and his room is ULF heaven. Four HST's should be plenty and I'll bet another four would just be headroom. Definitely do a thread when you start. We need more sub porn around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Haha! Be careful what you wish for right? Just last night, I was really feeling like I had too much going on in my life and needed some time to do all this stuff I've got planned. Don't ya just hate how work always interferes with all that other stuff? Well that problem is temporarily solved. I got laid off, so I don't have to go to work until someone else hires me, which probably won't take long. The nice thing is that I basically get to go on vacation and get paid for it, since I had plenty accrued paid vacation. I was afraid I was going to lose my opportunity to take time off by getting hired too quickly. Of course, there's a backlog of other personal projects that need attention, so I don't know if I'll get started on the sub builds or not. I also kind of want to know where my next paycheck is coming from before dropping $5k on woofers, amp, and supplies, and I probably want the woofers in my hands before I do my circle cutouts. Edit: I mean no disrespect to those who have suffered as a consequence of layoff as many do. I just happen to be in the odd position of it being convenient for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shredhead Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 so I don't know if I'll get started on the sub builds or not. I probably want the woofers in my hands before I do my circle cutouts. If you've got the time, I say get the labor intensive part out of the way with the box builds. You don't need the drivers for that, Nick can give you accurate dimensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted June 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Don't worry SME no one here gets offended easily. I think most people would take a paid layoff too. I know I would. I've been working 11-12 hr days for 11 years now. A paid summer vacation?! Sign me up haha. You got your priorities and that sure as hell doesn't include $5k on subs. Whenever you do post though I'm excited to see what you come up with. Shred is right you could always do the boxes. That shouldn't cost too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Cah Mahn, Do eet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Lone Survivor right before the Copter touches down. Loved the movie but depressing as hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Just watched that this weekend. My subwoofer riser made that scene pretty jiggly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I hate you Scott... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Subwoofer riser?!? Pics or it didn't happen. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKtheater Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Scott, I don't have my rear woofers in my riser but the bottom of the sub enclosures are the top of the risers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Scott has a "being built" pic in the ULF thread Max. Hey btw you said my signal level wasn't right. What's it supposed to be set to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Subwoofer riser?!? Pics or it didn't happen. JSS Scott has a "being built" pic in the ULF thread Max. Hey btw you said my signal level wasn't right. What's it supposed to be set to? Yup, I have the details in the ULF thread at AVS. Here is a link to the post: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1488059-your-home-theater-ulf-score-111.html#post34902553 And two pics (not sure why these don't work here): http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=767233&d=1433908298 http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=767265&d=1433908298 Scott, I don't have my rear woofers in my riser but the bottom of the sub enclosures are the top of the risers. Hmm. Not sure if that would necessarily have the same effect as I'm getting but I'm sure there is some transfer of energy. I'll just have to take your word for it. My two 18's are directly underneath the seat so only a few inches from my butt (he he) and really only a couple inches from the seat, itself. It can be pretty intense and just watching Lone Survivor it was like my couch was on hydraulics. It was ridiculous in a good way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I hate you Scott... Adam, I remember you saying you were trying some nearfield subs. Did you commit to that? Obviously you are running Dave's Raptor system. How tall is your HT room? If you can accommodate the height of the riser, you could try out something similar. Checking out the picture of you and Dave at the seating... looks like you could get away with something similar. I used 2x8's for the side walls and one layer of 3/4" plywood for the top and bottom. I put one layer of carpet padding underneath mine but it still come out to almost exactly 10" rise. This was 18's though and depending on which drivers you use you could get away with a less tall riser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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