SME Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Bosso and others: What would you guys want to see on an LF WCS disc? I was thinking WCS sinewaves (for signal chain clipping diagnosis) vs a very long linear WCS sinewave sweep from 0.5Hz to 200Hz. For actual testing with the whole system, tonebursts at different frequencies, esp targeting ULF. And an actual pink noise file for LFE channel level setting with a C-weighted SPL meter set to SLOW. Other suggestions? JSS Some of my suggestions may overlap functionality provided on other test discs, but here it goes anyway. And FWIW, I don't really need a test disc since I can generate my own test tracks live as needed, so my comments reflect what I think would be useful for other people. In addition to band-limited pink noise on each of the 7.1 channels, it would be very helpful to have sine sweeps in each 7.1 channel that cover the crossover range, say from 20-400 Hz. The purpose of these sweeps is to facilitate optimizing the crossover response of *each* mains channel. In practice, this will be very hard for most people to do. Typically, all one can adjust is the crossover frequency (not even necessarily independently for each channel) and the sub distance. A reasonable suggestion for people is to choose the sub distance that achieves the smoothest response for the center channel. Hopefully the center channel optimization leads to decent results for FL and FR. However, now that more movie soundtracks are being developed with Atmos and other technologies that support bass management for surrounds in the theater, bass is becoming much more commonplace in the surround channels. With Atmos objects, bass is often "panned around the room" with the rest of the sound. Of course, this bass shouldn't be localizeable but in practice, if the crossover response isn't ideal on all channels then the tonal character of the bass will change as the sound is panned. Unfortunately as I said, getting ideal crossover response on *all* channels is likely to be very hard for most people, but at least they have a chance if they can measure it. Note that by temporarily turning off bass management and ideally setting the LFE HPF higher than 120 Hz (like 250 Hz), one can use the same test tracks to compare the naked response of each channel with the bass management result and see whether each main is playing in phase with the sub(s), which may ease optimization of the sub distance setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 As promised, info on a group buy for the A4-20K 2 channel amp. I could offer a very tight price but would need a minimum number of sales. The price would be around $1900 plus freight (and duties, VAT, fees for international shipments). The A4-20K is 220V-240V operation only. Exact numbers will follow if there seems to be enough interest. Upgraded power supply, cap rez, output boards, cooling air flow, transformer, PFC, etc. Specs of the A-14K and A4-20K: Front mock up: Paul has acquired a digital O-scope and is devising amplifier tests that matter to MWB fans. He's waiting for some voltage and current probes to facilitate the large voltage and current peaks involved with bridged amps of this caliber. We will not need "dummy" loads as we have drivers that can handle the power and of course will better represent actual use. Lots more ahead on this subject.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 WOW awesome stuff Bosso. I hope there is enough interest in the A4-20K for the GB. Unfortunately for me I wont be able to buy anything until late in the year. Thats whaen I planned on buying my subwoofer amp and possibly other amps. BUT either way I am saving for your 14K and if timing works for me possibly this A4-20K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 That's a whole lotta power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 At $1900, that looks like a killer deal. Do I see options for 4 channels? It looks like it's more flexible, providing good performance for a wide variety of sub configurations. How many amps do you recommend for the 240V circuit? Is it correct to assume that the current limits are significantly higher on this model than the A-14k due to the 240V power input? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Goddamn.... I want that A4-20 so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Me too Scott...me too. I just have no need for it and that still doesn't matter to me haha. Hell I'd buy some subs just to use that beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Good excuse for you to pick up another Raptor system.... you know, for the other side of your room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 You read my mind. Dave said he'd make an all white Raptor system for me. Uh huh yah he said that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Here's the plane scene from Wolverine. Man this scene feels cool with the hard hit at 20hz and some presence down to 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 The A-Bomb is pretty radical and so is the snow plow scene (which I found out is only on the edition I happened to buy) and the plane scene is surprisingly powerful. One of my favorites. There are a lot more transients in that scene. Did you cap the beginning or the end of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Which Wolverine movie? I don't remember a plane scene. Dave, no plan on a lower powered 110v version of your 4ch amp? I only ask because..... well.... GIMME!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Yah I capped the nuke scene but wanted something a little lower to post. Snow plow scene will prolly be done tomorrow. Those are the last two hits. You're right the first 3 or so have more to them. Btw after watching the version you have I bought it too. Got it in 3D of course, and with those extended bass scenes easily made it worth buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 It was the last one titled The Wolverine. He's sitting on the plane close to the beginning of the movie when they fly over to Japan and there's these vicious shudders of the plane shaking from turbulence. I had to turn it up cuz the level is low on that movie but when you do it sounds, and feels, amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Which Wolverine movie? I don't remember a plane scene. Dave, no plan on a lower powered 110v version of your 4ch amp? I only ask because..... well.... GIMME!!!! Of course there are lower powered versions. There's a 10K, 18K and 20K. The 10K and 18K (actually 9600W and 14500W) can be operated with 120V-30A mains power but the 20K is a waste of amp on 120V-30A. It's a monster that needs more mains juice and runs more efficiently on 220V. If you get enough people interested, I'll offer whichever you want. Yah I capped the nuke scene but wanted something a little lower to post. Snow plow scene will prolly be done tomorrow. Those are the last two hits. You're right the first 3 or so have more to them. Btw after watching the version you have I bought it too. Got it in 3D of course, and with those extended bass scenes easily made it worth buying. I knew you'd cave and get the extended version. Yes, it's def worth it for the snow plow scene alone, IMO. Post the snow plow caps when you have them. I'm interested to compare them to the ones I did back when. I might repeat them with the systems I'm testing now as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted May 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Of course there are lower powered versions. There's a 10K, 18K and 20K. The 10K and 18K (actually 9600W and 14500W) can be operated with 120V-30A mains power but the 20K is a waste of amp on 120V-30A. It's a monster that needs more mains juice and runs more efficiently on 220V. If you get enough people interested, I'll offer whichever you want. I knew you'd cave and get the extended version. Yes, it's def worth it for the snow plow scene alone, IMO. Post the snow plow caps when you have them. I'm interested to compare them to the ones I did back when. I might repeat them with the systems I'm testing now as well. Yah for $18 it's a hell of a deal. Actually I'm excited to watch it in 3D and with a little higher level on those scenes. That snow plow scene is brilliant. I will def post that one tomorrow and maybe a John Wick cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Of course there are lower powered versions. There's a 10K, 18K and 20K. The 10K and 18K (actually 9600W and 14500W) can be operated with 120V-30A mains power but the 20K is a waste of amp on 120V-30A. It's a monster that needs more mains juice and runs more efficiently on 220V. If you get enough people interested, I'll offer whichever you want. I'm moreso interested in your amp tech with 4ch in 2RU soooo.... like .... whatever you got, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Scott start saving.....and when you get there maybe I will be ready. Bosso in the extended version of Wolverine is the audio mix still the same or is it better? Or is it just the scene that is added? I know the scenes are added but wondered if there was an improved audio also with the extended version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Dave, no plan on a lower powered 110v version of your 4ch amp? I only ask because..... well.... GIMME!!!! I'm likewise intrigued by 4 channel capability, even if I only need 2 channels now. The A-20k is probably more power than I need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 I messed with all of the versions. My conclusions were that, indeed, the 20K is too much amplifier for consumer use. A 220V-30A home run is a bit much. That narrows it's market to too few people to mess with it. Not profitable. I don't know what the attraction is to multiple amplifiers? It exponentially increases complexity. Even seeing these ID sub fans buying 4 or more mid-fi subs, each with it's own amplifier with whatever on-board global EQ, all pass filter control, gain attenuator, hidden indicator lights, etc. Run extension cords? Plug each willy-nilly into whatever outlet is near enough? Multiple length cables? Run to each sub and reach behind to adjust parameters? Yeah, I know... peoples loves all kindsa opshuns. I set my focus on a single version to power system II and system III using 110V power, current peak limiting, voltage peak limiting, adjustable gain range and stability when reproducing extremely wide bandwidth, reference level effects. Subwoofer duty only. That was enough work for one lifetime. It's an extraordinary piece of machinery and the performance of the system proves it. I could say the same thing about the SEQSS. It's an extraordinary piece of audio hardware. I cringed and groaned over the years I watched while watching Paul continually work on scrapping the L/T and redesigning the entire filter configuration, the balanced outputs, op-amp selection, noise floor, phase anomalies, signal shape accuracy, power supply parameters, component quality, subjective and objective... down to laboring over the sensitivity of the power indicator LED that signals when close to maximum input voltage by changing color. The Special edition Raptor systems are priced at below what the amplifier alone is worth. I've been a bass player since I was 13 years old in the 60s. I played football stadiums by the time I was 18. I've been in world class studios and experienced the best playback systems available at various times from the 70s to the turn of the century. I got into HT in the 90s with ProLogic and laser discs. In Y2K I got into subwoofers with the advent of a discrete LFE+10dB channel summed with redirected bass. I've been to many states in the union to listen to countless systems of many an alignment and scale. I've built and tested dozens of subs from 2 x 10" to 16 x 15" using over 100 drivers from the US, Chile, Brazil, Germany, Italy, China, Taiwan, Denmark, The Netherlands, and Malaysia. By any standard, Adam's system is superb. I look forward to Dom's visit and his impressions because he is a very smart guy whose opinion on the subject I respect. Beyond that, Adam and Jazzy are awesome hosts so it should be a great event overall and fun to read about with plenty of pics (hopefully). But, the main attraction with be Adam's subwoofer system. There's a fine line between good and great. I'd love to hear an opinion that removes my bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted May 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Ok here we go. The extended edition is worth every mother f'n penny! Plane scene again. There's extra hits in this edition and man are they awesome: Here's an extra scene which is badass. The snow plow which is hot at 20hz but has some nice extension to 10hz: One other thing. This track might be one of my all time favorites. It's one of the very few movies I've listened to that uses the rear surrounds perfectly. That you can get it in 3D for $18 is amazing. This is a reference disc for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted May 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Dave thanks for the kind words man. I wish you were making it up here too but it should be great to have Dom, and hopefully Larry, check out the system and get his insight as well. I'm sure we'll have a ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominguez1 Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Adam, Dave, Should find out if I can attend early next week. Will let you know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Ok here we go. The extended edition is worth every mother f'n penny! Plane scene again. There's extra hits in this edition and man are they awesome: Wolverineextplane.png Here's an extra scene which is badass. The snow plow which is hot at 20hz but has some nice extension to 10hz: Wolverineextsnowplow.png One other thing. This track might be one of my all time favorites. It's one of the very few movies I've listened to that uses the rear surrounds perfectly. That you can get it in 3D for $18 is amazing. This is a reference disc for sure. AWESOME! Thanks for capping the snow plow scene. It's one of my favorite, too (Wolverine soundtrack). I ran a gif of the comparison. You have a dip at 45 Hz and I have a dip at 60 Hz but from 40 Hz down we're spot on with the digits, allowing a bit for you mic roll off. This shit never gets old for me. SpecLab is amazing software. Dave thanks for the kind words man. I wish you were making it up here too but it should be great to have Dom, and hopefully Larry, check out the system and get his insight as well. I'm sure we'll have a ball. Ping me with the date and details if you get a chance... I'd love to see you guys again and meet the Dominator. Adam, Dave, Should find out if I can attend early next week. Will let you know! Good deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominguez1 Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Lol, Dominator! If it happens, it will be Saturday, june the 13th or 14th. Would be great to meet both of you guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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