BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3

[MKtheater]

6 inches.

 

Here is X-men with better calibration.  First one at reference and the second 9 dB hot, how I usually watch it.

 

 

[Aj72]

^^^^^^ Nice caps MK!

[3ll3d00d]

Thanks for that link d00d, I forgot where that was.  You are definitely a pro when it comes to the PC side of tweaking things.  A friend of mine (who has a HTPC) is interested in getting a multichannel interface and assigning the channels for surround as opposed to his PCI soundcard.  Have you ever started a thread showing people how to do that? 

I'm not sure there is a general guide to that as it depends so much on the software you use & how you configure it. For example I use jriver & use

 

* JRSS for up/down mixing

* JRiver DSP for controlling input channel levels in preparation for bass management

* FIR filters & the convolver configuration for actual bass management & interchannel delays

* a mix of JRiver DSP, audio driver mixer levels & downstream analogue gain to regain levels after bass management

 

It's quite specific to my setup really.

[MKtheater]

I want to try to load the cal files but I am confused.  I tried using curve editor but that does not work with windows 8 and that would have been so easy to do. 

[3ll3d00d]

I want to try to load the cal files but I am confused.  I tried using curve editor but that does not work with windows 8 and that would have been so easy to do. 

I can make it for you if you send me your cal file (or paste the cal file into here and I'll knock one up later)

[Ricci]

Ask Josh if he'll test Nick's HS-24 with a Berry NU6K vs his K-20 and we'll have something to talk about.

 

 

Actually, I love that idea....but could be done with any capable driver, really.

 

I would be great to show the difference between the popular Berry's vs the K-20 just to show real world differences across the passband for the DIY world.

 

Demonstrate how much they're leaving on the table potentially...

 

Josh? 

 

 

Good stuff. This along with cea in room measurements and commentary on source material between the two would make a great addition to the 

 

Article Archive

 

 

 

Of course the Berry would be worse. It's also a 1/20th the price of a K-20 and only a handful of useful dB lower. Worth the price? Not for everybody.

 

 

I can probably do something like this. I am planning to compare the SP2-12000 to the K20 like this anyway. I have barely used the K20's yet. Actually got out and tested a couple of subs last Wednesday night. One of them was the SI24 and I did bottom it out a couple of times. The K20's with all the goodies are more than just a power amp at this point. The feature set and DSP on these are so deep. It's pretty cool being able to real time monitor the ac line, draw from the ac line, peak and average output current and voltage, rail voltage, impedance of the load, etc...Still learning some of this stuff. The onboard DSP is more sophisticated and flexible than the DCX so I've removed those from my signal chain in the HT. That is one less source of noise and roll off on the bottom.

 

I expect that the results with the big SpeakerPower and the K20 will be fairly close. On paper it's about 1 or 2dB depending on the load. We'll see if that pans out. I'm actually a bit interested in how the Inuke6K will do. I still have one of the non dsp's. I will only run the 6K and the SP12K with one channel since neither can be bridged, so it'd be a one channel test. Since I already did the 24 I think I'd actually use the Orion HCCA152 for it. It has a huge 4" coil and should take quite a bit more power than the 24" thermally. Plus you can buy a drop in recone if it dies.

[MKtheater]

It is on my home laptop, I will send it later, Thanks. 

[Bossobass Dave]

I can probably do something like this. I am planning to compare the SP2-12000 to the K20 like this anyway. I have barely used the K20's yet. Actually got out and tested a couple of subs last Wednesday night. One of them was the SI24 and I did bottom it out a couple of times. The K20's with all the goodies are more than just a power amp at this point. The feature set and DSP on these are so deep. It's pretty cool being able to real time monitor the ac line, draw from the ac line, peak and average output current and voltage, rail voltage, impedance of the load, etc...Still learning some of this stuff. The onboard DSP is more sophisticated and flexible than the DCX so I've removed those from my signal chain in the HT. That is one less source of noise and roll off on the bottom.

 

I expect that the results with the big SpeakerPower and the K20 will be fairly close. On paper it's about 1 or 2dB depending on the load. We'll see if that pans out. I'm actually a bit interested in how the Inuke6K will do. I still have one of the non dsp's. I will only run the 6K and the SP12K with one channel since neither can be bridged, so it'd be a one channel test. Since I already did the 24 I think I'd actually use the Orion HCCA152 for it. It has a huge 4" coil and should take quite a bit more power than the 24" thermally. Plus you can buy a drop in recone if it dies.

 

Great stuff, as usual. I like the Orion driver. Now, IMHO, that thing will mop the floor with the LMS-R 15. It's actually bigger than a 15, claiming 962 or something CM^2 Sd, IIRC. It's neck and neck with the BHT-15 in the Raptor as far as FR, Vb and excursion, but it gives a couple more dB across the bandwidth because of the larger Sd. And, it has a lot more X-lim, but I don't buy the 30 mm Xmax. Can't wait to see the results.

 

Hey, we all know the SP 12K will kick (one channel of) the K-20's, arse, right?   And, if you hook up 2 of the iNukes per coil, it will be just as good as the K-20 for a millionth the price. Well, that's what I heard, anyway.

 

Yep, would be great to see the diff with everything else equal.

 

When will you post the HS-24 stuff? Did someone tell me the HS-24 was tested in a ported box?

[Ricci]

I got the UM18 tested and the 24 was in the 15ft sealed cab that Beast had built. I'm going to try and get that stuff uploaded ASAP cause a lot of people are interested in those 2. From what I can remember both did quite well. It's all a blur when doing the tests. No time for in depth study and too much being gathered to remember it all, so I don't get a good look at how things turn out until later at home. The 24 with 15 cubes to play with is a monster on the low end as expected.

[Archaea]

Here's some further experimentation I did on the eight UM18-22 tonight.  Playing through subsonic test tones at about 90dB range. Watching some room artifacts - nothing too crazy - but the bass was knocking some things down, and I just didn't feel any of it (except 13hz)  If I was sitting in my chairs right in front of the nearfield subs I'd feel it all!

 

https://youtu.be/6O5oc2CFWVs

 

I'm still of the opinion that 15hz or above (maybe 13hz in my specific room and above) is where it's at on a concrete basement slab.

 

 

Ignore the comment at the front of the video.  DD was telling me he wasn't sure my nearfield three subs were doing much at the bottom note of the bass I love you track because of the measurements I posted for bosso.  However, in the measurements I posted for bosso, the mic was just at the main listening position on the top of the chair facing forward (as show in my video), which is far from optimized for getting  a FR for the rear three nearfield subs.  When I put the mic in the center seat facing back towards the subs ( a more reasonable mic capture position), the FR for the nearfield three is very smooth, and looks nothing like the capture where the mic is placed on the seat back and facing forward.  The nearfield 3 are definitely playing the 8hz note in the bass I love you song, and the FR looks nice and flat for the nearfield when the mic is placed optimally.

[Bossobass Dave]

I yanked an oldie off the shelf tonight and gave it a spin. I'd never watched this one all the way through. This is the mammoth herd stampede scene from chapter 3 in 10,000 BC. Mic is at the sweet spot, SW trim is +6dB and the MVL is at reference:

 

 

Arch,

 

Put away the sine waves. Steady state single frequency ULF is all but irrelevant. Play a scene like this one, or one that has known ULF content for more than a gunshot transient and play it with and without a 20 Hz HPF. Your house doesn't have to jump up and down 50 mm for you to perceive a difference.

 

Like I said earlier in the thread when the near field subject was brought up, the Near field subs will always play a completely different FR, EQ or not. Dr. Hsu, for one, uses the MBM to fill in a missing or weak mid-bass, between the subs and satellites. You and others use them for tactile feel across a narrow band.

 

 

I had to apply 1 octave smoothing to the traces because they're all over the map. I normalized them all to 70 Hz. The near filed trace is missing because it was actually showing less FR than the naked close mic trace. Nevertheless, the response with all 8 subs and EQ is -12dB @ 10 Hz and -20dB @ 6 Hz. That's gonna cause some problems with masking of the ULF in a basement.

 

Here's the traces with 1/6 octave smoothing of the close mic response (gold trace), near field subs with no EQ (magenta trace), near field subs with EQ (blue trace) and all subs on with EQ (green trace).

 

 

I suspect the iNuke's roll off to be the primary culprit and I'd like to see a loopback of the Symmetrix (SP?) piece as well. Those added to the SW out of the AVR probably add up to a serious sig chain roll off.

 

 

The green trace is a clone amp (I forget which agent), the dashed purple trace is the current A-14K, the red trace is the QSC RMX series amps, and the black trace is the NU6K. Now, I do not remember where I nicked this trace from, but I must have deemed it from a reliable enough source to add it to the other traces for comparison. Maybe someone can confirm or deny it?

 

Anyway, if it's accurate, you're fighting a pretty steep combined signal chain roll off, IMO. I would not judge ULF by sine waves with your current signal chain. Just my opinion, FWIW, YMMV, etc.

[Spacebug]

That rolloff for the Inuke resembles somewhat my loopback measurements of 6000 dsp, going from memory here. 

 

Sinewaves are good though to get a feel of the rolloff,  especially sweeps.

Play a fairly slow sweep of 0-20Hz and look at the driver movement. 

That way one can get a feel for the rolloff without even measuring. 

If the drivers don't move much below say 3-4Hz then you have some substantial rolloff in the chain, just as an example... 

[mojave]

Scott says that 4 iNuke6000s are 1/2 the price of the A-14K because "he thought the A-14K was $2500", when it would have to be $3500 for the statement to be true.

$3500? Half of $3500 is $1750 which is $437.50 per iNuke NU6000. That price is crazy!

 

I typically order from Musician's Friend and you always get a discount if you call. Right now the discount is 7%, but it was 10% through 5/2. I was just ordering a MOTU 24ao audio device and asked about buying 4 iNuke NU6000s. Total price shipped for 4 NU6000's is $1301.96 and was ~$1260 a few weeks ago. I don't think Scott was too far off. 

 

Ricci's amp comparison looks cool.

[Bossobass Dave]

$3500? Half of $3500 is $1750 which is $437.50 per iNuke NU6000. That price is crazy!

 

I typically order from Musician's Friend and you always get a discount if you call. Right now the discount is 7%, but it was 10% through 5/2. I was just ordering a MOTU 24ao audio device and asked about buying 4 iNuke NU6000s. Total price shipped for 4 NU6000's is $1301.96 and was ~$1260 a few weeks ago. I don't think Scott was too far off. 

 

Ricci's amp comparison looks cool.

 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

$1301.96 * 2 = $2602.92 vs $1800 shipped. That's $802.92 off vs $1750 minus $1302 = $448 (my WAG). Wow. Crazy!

 

Are you sure you shopped long and hard enough? Surely the Nuker can be had for 30 cents less somewhere else?

 

You hear that Adam? You coulda got 4 Nukers, left 3dB on the table and saved $397.04!!

 

EDIT: Well, you'd need to run another set of speaker wire to each stack and install 3 more dedicated outlets, but let's not split hairs until someone finds a lower price for the amps.

[BeastAudio]

It's the best solution for the system he built. 

 

Isn't this a forum where we can speak freely about the things that we are into and isn't this a thread specifically dedicated to the Raptor system 3?  I don't understand all of the recent backlash about what "it seems like" Bosso is saying (whatever that means) when he is only praising something that he has worked hard on to make a tough product.  Especially seeing how many large companies that make consumer electronics these days will simply re-brand a played out design or put something out that has flat out defects in it's design.  You guys would be proud of the A14K too I think. 

 

There are plenty of threads about people using various makes/models of amps to drive their subs and I don't see Bosso in those threads knocking what they choose to use.  Where's the love data-bass?

 

I want to be proud of my own a14-k. I beat my crest up pretty bad this weekend. Had it power cycling like a disco ball running some serious bass scenes for the family for mother's day. My 90 yr old Gram loved the opening scene to EoT....Haha  After my LT, the crest has absolutely NO chance of keeping up.

 

I got the UM18 tested and the 24 was in the 15ft sealed cab that Beast had built. I'm going to try and get that stuff uploaded ASAP cause a lot of people are interested in those 2. From what I can remember both did quite well. It's all a blur when doing the tests. No time for in depth study and too much being gathered to remember it all, so I don't get a good look at how things turn out until later at home. The 24 with 15 cubes to play with is a monster on the low end as expected.

 

 

Oh yea. Looking forward to this review for sure. What's the plan with that box now? Did you brace that box any more than I did? Or at least pop another sheet of plywood on the front. Would likely imprive the upper bass some. 

[Ricci]

 

Oh yea. Looking forward to this review for sure. What's the plan with that box now? Did you brace that box any more than I did? Or at least pop another sheet of plywood on the front. Would likely imprive the upper bass some. 

 

Nope. Drilled out the speaker wire and silicone from the back and installed a speakon. Threw a couple extra Wally special pillows in there and called it good. I ain't got time for all that. I have no long term use for that box so unless you or someone else wants it, it will probably be chopped up and burned at some point.

 

 

Hey Dave if Arch is running a Symetrix 551E I should have a loopback in the electronics thread in all those measurements I posted. Edit: Yep. -3 at 6Hz and -9 at 3Hz with all of the filters wide open.

[theJman]

I yanked an oldie off the shelf tonight and gave it a spin. I'd never watched this one all the way through. This is the mammoth herd stampede scene from chapter 3 in 10,000 BC. Mic is at the sweet spot, SW trim is +6dB and the MVL is at reference:

 

 

 

Is that from the DVD or BR?  I've used the stampede scene frequently in the past, but I only have the DVD.  I don't particularly like the movie but there are a few scenes worth owning it for, so if that's the BR I may upgrade.

[Bossobass Dave]

 

Hey Dave if Arch is running a Symetrix 551E I should have a loopback in the electronics thread in all those measurements I posted. Edit: Yep. -3 at 6Hz and -9 at 3Hz with all of the filters wide open.

 

 

You are the man. I would never have looked there for it.

 

Now, this box from Brandon's GTG, how the heck is it only 15 cubes? It looks to be at least 20 cubes on the outside??

[Bossobass Dave]

Is that from the DVD or BR?  I've used the stampede scene frequently in the past, but I only have the DVD.  I don't particularly like the movie but there are a few scenes worth owning it for, so if that's the BR I may upgrade.

 

It's the DVD. I don't actually know who put it in my library. I know I didn't buy it.

[Ricci]

Now, this box from Brandon's GTG, how the heck is it only 15 cubes? It looks to be at least 20 cubes on the outside??

 

Hell I don't know. It looks quite a bit bigger than that to me as well. Damn near GH size. That's what I was told at one point. Guess I'll get out the tape measure and get a rough estimate on it. Might be 20+.

[Madaeel]

You hear that Adam? You coulda got 4 Nukers, left 3dB on the table and saved $397.04!!

 

EDIT: Well, you'd need to run another set of speaker wire to each stack and install 3 more dedicated outlets, but let's not split hairs until someone finds a lower price for the amps.

 Uhh no thanks. My rack is full of real amps.  

 

I get why people use the iNuke's but if I didn't have the Raptor system I'd be sol on more than just the amps. I would prolly go the clone route and hope it didn't take a dump on me. Those drivers need a LOT of juice down low.

 

Speaking of down low I just picked up John Wick, Fury, and TDKR. I should have some caps of OZ and John W tomorrow.

[Madaeel]

Hell I don't know. It looks quite a bit bigger than that to me as well. Damn near GH size. That's what I was told at one point. Guess I'll get out the tape measure and get a rough estimate on it. Might be 20+.

Holy hell! 20+??! You might as well go with a LLT haha.

[BeastAudio]

You are the man. I would never have looked there for it.

 

Now, this box from Brandon's GTG, how the heck is it only 15 cubes? It looks to be at least 20 cubes on the outside??

 

 

Hell I don't know. It looks quite a bit bigger than that to me as well. Damn near GH size. That's what I was told at one point. Guess I'll get out the tape measure and get a rough estimate on it. Might be 20+.

 

 

I am pretty sure I built that closer to 17cuft. Initial estimates was for 15, but I went a shade bigger IIRC. Some of the wood had already been cut from a previous project, so I used the rip-cut panels to the best of my ability. 

[Infrasonic]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

$1800 shipped divided by 2 = $900. That's $402 off vs $1750 minus $1302 = $448 (my WAG). Wow. Crazy!

 

Are you sure you shopped long and hard enough? Surely the Nuker can be had for 30 cents less somewhere else?

 

You hear that Adam? You coulda got 4 Nukers, left 3dB on the table and saved $397.04!!

 

EDIT: Well, you'd need to run another set of speaker wire to each stack and install 3 more dedicated outlets, but let's not split hairs until someone finds a lower price for the amps.

 

 

And how soon could I have your a14k if I paid in full for one? Oh? Okay...

 

Where can you squeeze in 6 more channels for the same price? Oh? Right...

 

Balance. Not everybody needs 4kw per channel. Some would rather have 1kw and more channels.

 

OH NOEZ!!!! I'm shit talking the Raptor system and totally not being completely reasonable. No, not at all.

 

 

 

Balance of compromise. Balance of compromise.

 

*slow clap*

[chrapladm]

Holy hell! 20+??! You might as well go with a LLT haha.

Remember this is a 24" IB subwoofer. I would stick with a large sealed but if porting try 75cuft 12hz tune.

 

 

Bosso why does the Clone have a lower cutoff than your amp?

 

I dont want to be a part of this argument just curious is all. I am sure we can count on consistent production amps from you verse the many clone builders.

 

 

 

And beast what Crest amp were you using?