BOSSOBASS Raptor system 3

[Spacebug]

If one wants to power a whole system with one amp then yeah,  your options for suitable amps are pretty limited, not arguing there. 

The same goes for using very power-hungry drivers/cabinets where it would be impossible or at least not practical distributing the power over more amps that are less capable. 

 

Yes Dave, if your posts and opinions on amps are based around whether one specific amp will power a whole raptor system or not then I get why it sounded a bit one-sided. 

Not many amps would be up  to that task

 

Didn't want to stir things up just that,  yeah,  many ways to skin the cat...

 

Just commented on the nuke since that's an amp I have experience of. 

When I searched for amp to power my rather small but sufficient system when I doubled up on drivers I think I stumbled upon the amp you base your A-14K upon. 

Pictures looked identical at least, but the risk of buying from China and the amount of money in general made me opt out on that and just getting another inuke since it did the job well powering the system before. 

If I had a more power demanding system then I guess my view on things would be different though... 

[dominguez1]

Just bring the Rythmiks with you.

I'd be flying so not sure if those would fit in the overhead bins...

 

Oh, and be sure to put those raptors under lock and key while we're there...you have been warned........

[dominguez1]

Maybe I will have 20 si's by then.

Yes please...

[Bossobass Dave]

Bosso,

 

I can't attach videos or files here, so I linked the FR capture information of my eight UM18's you requested in my room thread on AVSforum.

 

See post 824 of this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-general-home-theater-media-game-rooms/1525397-archaea-s-multi-purpose-home-theater-room-28.html#post34066634

 

Thanks for the info:

 

I have a folder tagged "all eight subs playing", but inside the folder the files say "front row of 5 subs...".

 

I have a folder that's tagged "Close mic measurements" and inside the files say "Nearfield 3000 (or 6000)..."

 

Just want to clarify what I have or don't have before I process the data.

[Archaea]

Yeah, I know it's a bit confusing, and it'll probably be even more so when you see that I have DSP built into my amps for my normal measurements.  For the close mic measurements I took the DSP out of the equation.  That's why I also included the boring video so that it hopefully would make more sense.

 

The "All Eight Subs Playing Together FR Captures.zip" are all eight subs playing at the same time.  In the zip file is two FR captures - one with Audyssey engaged, one without.  But all eight subs playing in each.  (both include the iNuke's DSP that I use on every front sub = 6dB PEQ boost at 20hz with Q of 2, and 3dB LS6 dynamic EQ shelf, and the Symmetrix analog EQ that I use for the three nearfield.)

 

The "Close Mic Measurements.zip" includes five FR captures.  I brain farted and named them nearfield, but they are definately close mic (they are closemic measurements of the front subs as shown in the video --- iNuke DSP is applied or not applied as labeled on the individual FR captures)

 

The "Front Wall Five Subs FR Capture.zip" has two FR captures - one with Audyssey, one without (but both include the iNuke's DSP that I use = 6dB PEQ boost at 20hz with Q of 2, and 3dB LS6 dynamic EQ shelf)

 

The "Nearfield Three Subs FR Captures.zip" has three FR captures - one with Audyssey and Symmetrix PEQ, One with only Symmetrix PEQ, and one with no Symmetrix PEQ, nor Audyssey.

 

I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

I think this all may be an exercise in frustration for you to figure out - and that wasn't my intention.  I have the iNuke amps programed with that DSP setting to give generic boost to the five front subs.  It's a pain to turn it on and off because I have to connect to each amp individually via USB and make the changes one amp, one channel at a time.  So I didn't turn all that off for a raw front five subs FR.  I did turn off the iNuke's DSP and Audyssey off for the close mic measurements on both the 3000 and the 6000.

 

I'll take any other measurements you need or want - but it might have to be early next week.  This weekend's booked with mother's day stuff, and a g2g with some friends.

[Bossobass Dave]

Yeah, I know it's a bit confusing, and it'll probably be even more so when you see that I have DSP built into my amps for my normal measurements.  For the close mic measurements I took the DSP out of the equation.  That's why I also included the boring video so that it hopefully would make more sense.

 

The "All Eight Subs Playing Together FR Captures.zip" are all eight subs playing at the same time.  In the zip file is two FR captures - one with Audyssey engaged, one without.  But all eight subs playing in each.  (both include the iNuke's DSP that I use on every front sub = 6dB PEQ boost at 20hz with Q of 2, and 3dB LS6 dynamic EQ shelf, and the Symmetrix analog EQ that I use for the three nearfield.)

 

The "Close Mic Measurements.zip" includes five FR captures.  I brain farted and named them nearfield, but they are definately close mic (they are closemic measurements of the front subs as shown in the video --- iNuke DSP is applied or not applied as labeled on the individual FR captures)

 

The "Front Wall Five Subs FR Capture.zip" has two FR captures - one with Audyssey, one without (but both include the iNuke's DSP that I use = 6dB PEQ boost at 20hz with Q of 2, and 3dB LS6 dynamic EQ shelf)

 

The "Nearfield Three Subs FR Captures.zip" has three FR captures - one with Audyssey and Symmetrix PEQ, One with only Symmetrix PEQ, and one with no Symmetrix PEQ, nor Audyssey.

 

I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

I think this all may be an exercise in frustration for you to figure out - and that wasn't my intention.  I have the iNuke amps programed with that DSP setting to give generic boost to the five front subs.  It's a pain to turn it on and off because I have to connect to each amp individually via USB and make the changes one amp, one channel at a time.  So I didn't turn all that off for a raw front five subs FR.  I did turn off the iNuke's DSP and Audyssey off for the close mic measurements on both the 3000 and the 6000.

 

I'll take any other measurements you need or want - but it might have to be early next week.  This weekend's booked with mother's day stuff, and a g2g with some friends.

 

 

No, that's good, I have it. It makes sense now.   They're loaded into REW and I've normalized them to the inductance hump, or high Q, whichever it is. I'll smooth them from there and we'll see the Naked (close mic, no EQ) vs NF vs NF+EQ vs FF+EQ vs ALL+EQ... correct?

[Bossobass Dave]

Great post, B. I gotta shake you cage a bit as you're held to a very high standard. A friendly and informative poke every once in a while is good for your health.

 

Yeah, I know. I like being on my toes because it's quite easy to die of boredom rehashing the SOS.

 

But, you'd hafta go back farther than 5 years. With the AA V6001, QSC RMX5050 and Marathon 5050 I powered dual Ravens with a single amp, bridged into a nom. 4 ohm load. That was 7 years ago, believe it or not. Before that, I used multiple amps because there wasn't anything available with higher power in a single case that didn't cost >$1500. I heard the same kinda arguments back then about the Berry EP 2500, or whatever it is. I tried a pair for 15 minutes and threw them out the window. They 'worked' for a lot of DIYers... not me.

 

That's another one of the downsides to the Berry (and other low priced brands) Class D amps. They're full bridge configuration per side, so 4 ohms per channel minimum and 2 channel operation only.

 

I can hardly expect someone to install 4-20A home runs and have 8 rack spaces just for the subwoofer. Then there's the extra wire, connection and gain stage/setup complexity and 4 times the liability. It just doesn't make sense and you aren't saving any $$ in the final analysis.

 

Funny... people, generally speaking, ask me my opinion then trash it as though it's a life threatening decision.

[Madaeel]

Man I missed Speclab.

 

X:DoFP scene with Quicksilver running on walls.

Btw this is only 5db hot Dave..

[Infrasonic]

Yeah, I know. I like being on my toes because it's quite easy to die of boredom rehashing the SOS.

 

But, you'd hafta go back farther than 5 years. With the AA V6001, QSC RMX5050 and Marathon 5050 I powered dual Ravens with a single amp, bridged into a nom. 4 ohm load. That was 7 years ago, believe it or not. Before that, I used multiple amps because there wasn't anything available with higher power in a single case that didn't cost >$1500. I heard the same kinda arguments back then about the Berry EP 2500, or whatever it is. I tried a pair for 15 minutes and threw them out the window. They 'worked' for a lot of DIYers... not me.

 

That's another one of the downsides to the Berry (and other low priced brands) Class D amps. They're full bridge configuration per side, so 4 ohms per channel minimum and 2 channel operation only.

 

I can hardly expect someone to install 4-20A home runs and have 8 rack spaces just for the subwoofer. Then there's the extra wire, connection and gain stage/setup complexity and 4 times the liability. It just doesn't make sense and you aren't saving any $$ in the final analysis.

 

Funny... people, generally speaking, ask me my opinion then trash it as though it's a life threatening decision.

 

Oh man, that was that long ago. Yeesh. Time flies...

 

Hey, I'm not arguing that you are completely wrong but you do make it sound like it's the only solution when in fact it isn't. For some people, cheaper and slower accumulating of amps is the easier choice. One expensive purchase is harder to chew than more smaller ones. It's just psychology. I know what the Europower is capable of and for the price, it's pretty good. I don't pretend that it's a LG or anything. I understand it's limitations. I certainly would exercise them when I had the two LLT's but now that I have more than a dozen 18's sealed in a ~2k cuft room. It just doesn't matter anymore. My amps aren't that powerful but combined they are more than I can get from the wall. The power from the socket is my limitation now.

 

Also, several need and require more than two channels of amplification. I need more than two channels of any power wattage you can dream up. Two channels ain't gonna do it. Again, cheaper to buy more amplifiers. It does get daunting though. When I look at my amp rack, I just shake my head and wonder "why?". When I look at all the cables and wires, I start to cry and get a headache.

 

I also must have amps that can do 2ohm and that's why the only inuke I own is the nu4-6k as it's not perma-bridged like the regular 6k is. All my amps short of the three Samsons doing mids and highs are capable of 2ohm.

 

Really like the CV5k too. That thing is a beast. I wonder what two of those bridged compared to your a14k would be like. Probably pretty close but takes up a massive amount more rack space. Each is 3ru and two would be double that. Then I start to imagine how much power I'd get with 6ru worth of A14's.  AGH!!!!

 

 

 

Oh btw, do you have any interest in making a 4ch version of your amp? Probably not enough power per channel for you but that would be an interesting amp for me and probably others with distributed sub systems.

[Bossobass Dave]

Man I missed Speclab.

 

X:DoFP scene with Quicksilver running on walls.

XDoFPquicksilver.png

Btw this is only 5db hot Dave..

 

 

I SEE that... I'm proud of you, young man.

 

Looks awesome. I just compared it to the one I capped when I rented the flick and it's all there. You're just rolled off a bit at the last part of the effect at 5 Hz. Getting the signal chain right is another chapter in the book. Ala in all, you system is as good as anything I've experienced. Less wobble, but cleaner presentation than mine. You have a much tighter room than I do and there's no amount of tweaking that would get mine to equal yours in that respect.

[Bossobass Dave]

Really like the CV5k too. That thing is a beast. I wonder what two of those bridged compared to your a14k would be like. Probably pretty close but takes up a massive amount more rack space. Each is 3ru and two would be double that. Then I start to imagine how much power I'd get with 6ru worth of A14's.  AGH!!!!

 

They'd be close, provided the CVs are each on a dedicated home run. I've made those comparisons using scenes from Star Trek through SpecLab at reference level and they looked pretty much identical.

 

 

Oh btw, do you have any interest in making a 4ch version of your amp? Probably not enough power per channel for you but that would be an interesting amp for me and probably others with distributed sub systems.

 

Already did, but it's a 20KW version and I decided it would be a waste to use 110V mains. It's a 220V only amp.

[Spacebug]

That's another one of the downsides to the Berry (and other low priced brands) Class D amps. They're full bridge configuration per side, so 4 ohms per channel minimum and 2 channel operation only.

 

Just speculating here but I think that could be partially to yield higher power from perhaps cheaper (?) parts.

Another reason could be that it is a nifty trick to avoid buspumping that more or less plagues Class D by design, which the powersupply might not want to have.

From my understanding the likelyhood for bad pumping goes up with power usage and lower frequencies, so perhaps it is no coincidence that many are permanent bridge configured?

Perhaps there are other ways to avoid pumping but bridging is probably the easiest...

 

Btw Dave,you seem somewhat obcessed about roll-off, in a good way mind you

Have you investigated any eventual highpass filters in the A-14K amp?

If I recall correctly I have seen some rolloff loopback graphs you posted of various recievers, and the oppo 105+amp.

I don't remember if it was the 14K amp or some earlier version.

Anyway, if memory serves I think it showed some rolloff from the amp, could be old graphs though so perhaps not relevant now...

From my findings on the subject on my inuke amp the filter modifications are pretty straight forward once you get the lay of the land of the amp, so to speak.

There could perhaps be some fairly easy roll-off reductions to be had by just knocking down the filters cutoff frequency an octave or two

I do understand though if you arn't keen on investing further years (?) of testing the amplifier after filter mod, guess you have some years of testing done already.

 

There might be some wise reasons not to modify an amplifiers bandwith though, don't know that much about amps to know what kind of problems one might get into.

My amp seems fine though, as far as I can see...

[BeastAudio]

The problems the amp might run into is called DC current to the subs......messin' around down there near 2hz....POOF!

[Bossobass Dave]

Just speculating here but I think that could be partially to yield higher power from perhaps cheaper (?) parts.

Another reason could be that it is a nifty trick to avoid buspumping that more or less plagues Class D by design, which the powersupply might not want to have.

From my understanding the likelyhood for bad pumping goes up with power usage and lower frequencies, so perhaps it is no coincidence that many are permanent bridge configured?

Perhaps there are other ways to avoid pumping but bridging is probably the easiest...

 

No, that's it in a nutshell. All class D amps used for subwoofer duty should be full bridge monoblocks. The NU series is built to exploit that. The 3k is half bridge per side and 3KW bridged. The 6K is a full bridge 3K per side and cannot be bridged. The 12K is a full bridged 6K per side and cannot be bridged, but they claim it's 2 ohm stable (I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig).

 

I've always believed that any subwoofer amp should be operated as a monoblock in full bridge configuration, regardless of it's classification. You get maximum power, $ per watt, and watt per pound from the case.

 

Btw Dave,you seem somewhat obcessed about roll-off, in a good way mind you

Have you investigated any eventual highpass filters in the A-14K amp?

If I recall correctly I have seen some rolloff loopback graphs you posted of various recievers, and the oppo 105+amp.

I don't remember if it was the 14K amp or some earlier version.

Anyway, if memory serves I think it showed some rolloff from the amp, could be old graphs though so perhaps not relevant now...

From my findings on the subject on my inuke amp the filter modifications are pretty straight forward once you get the lay of the land of the amp, so to speak.

There could perhaps be some fairly easy roll-off reductions to be had by just knocking down the filters cutoff frequency an octave or two

I do understand though if you arn't keen on investing further years (?) of testing the amplifier after filter mod, guess you have some years of testing done already.

 

There might be some wise reasons not to modify an amplifiers bandwith though, don't know that much about amps to know what kind of problems one might get into.

My amp seems fine though, as far as I can see...

 

The current A-14K is -3dB @ 5 Hz and -6dB @ 3 Hz with a shallow roll off that doesn't reach a full 1st order before DC. That was a design decision. The roll off is governed by the blocking caps and it's a simple matter of swapping them out for larger capacity caps to flatten the bottom end or change the order of the roll off, which we have done in earlier amps and which is likely we will do in the future.

 

That was actually another reason I disliked the NU series. I don't know where I got it from but someone must've posted the frequency response and the bottom was prett severely rolled off. Looking at Archaea's response measurements, very quickly so far, I suspect a pretty steep signal chain roll off and maybe the amps are the lion's share of the culprit. Not sure about the Symmetrix he uses, but the Onk SW out is pretty good, like -3dB @ 3 Hz. Can you post the measurement before your mod?

[Spacebug]

A capacitor would still block DC right? 

Just that lower cut-off frequency allows more of the AC signal in the "vicinity" of DC to pass through,  that is how I've understood it...

If near DC would be very harmful I don't think we would see that many DC coupled amps,  or AC coupled for that matter with -3db in the 0.xx Hz regions... 

But as I said,  don't know enough to be sure... 

[Shredhead]

Hey, I'm not arguing that you are completely wrong but you do make it sound like it's the only solution when in fact it isn't.

It's the best solution for the system he built. 

 

Isn't this a forum where we can speak freely about the things that we are into and isn't this a thread specifically dedicated to the Raptor system 3?  I don't understand all of the recent backlash about what "it seems like" Bosso is saying (whatever that means) when he is only praising something that he has worked hard on to make a tough product.  Especially seeing how many large companies that make consumer electronics these days will simply re-brand a played out design or put something out that has flat out defects in it's design.  You guys would be proud of the A14K too I think. 

 

There are plenty of threads about people using various makes/models of amps to drive their subs and I don't see Bosso in those threads knocking what they choose to use.  Where's the love data-bass?  

[Infrasonic]

C'mon Bosso Jr.

 

This is a thread about the Raptor but the discussion went elsewhere as these things do on any forum.

 

I would be proud to own either the subs or the amp or all of it ... but I don't so I can't comment about the Raptor system. Is it okay that I participate in your thread still? Who is knocking either part of this Raptor system? Chill out.

[Shredhead]

 Is it okay that I participate in your thread still? Who is knocking either part of this Raptor system? Chill out.

 

You are welcome to participate.  I never said anybody was knocking anything but lately, you gotta admit the participation has been far from supportive.  I am quite chill, I just don't understand the paranoia of thinking that because someone gushes over the performance of a piece of gear, that means they are nullifying someone else's choice. 

 

 

 

[Infrasonic]

We are all jealous. You can't see that?

 

Nobody here has the Raptor. Who else can comment about them? Adam needs to post more about his. In the meantime, posts will go OT or this thread will have little to no life in it.

[Shredhead]

I hear ya Scott.  Try not to start crying when I talk about the SEQSS.

[Madaeel]

We are all jealous. You can't see that?

 

Nobody here has the Raptor. Who else can comment about them? Adam needs to post more about his. In the meantime, posts will go OT or this thread will have little to no life in it.

Damn I just posted a cap from Xmen. What do you want from me Scott??!

[Infrasonic]

MOAR CAPS!!!

RAWR RAPTOR!!!!

[Bossobass Dave]

 

Dildo's? Nut massagers? Whatever are you on about, old man?

 

Don't know how I missed this. It's my favorite post in the last 6 pages. I must've been in the hospital having my heart stented when you posted.

 

You got the old man part nailed.

[Spacebug]

That was actually another reason I disliked the NU series. I don't know where I got it from but someone must've posted the frequency response and the bottom was prett severely rolled off. Looking at Archaea's response measurements, very quickly so far, I suspect a pretty steep signal chain roll off and maybe the amps are the lion's share of the culprit. Not sure about the Symmetrix he uses, but the Onk SW out is pretty good, like -3dB @ 3 Hz. Can you post the measurement before your mod?

 

 

Indeed the inukes roll off pretty quickly down low, atleast if one should trust my measurements.

I have the DSP version of the 6K, and those seem to have more coupling caps than the non DSP versions.

At least judging by some rather low-res pics ive seen of the amp board of non DSP and a schematics of 3000 non DSP.

On the non DSP ones there only appear to be one coupling cap in the signal path and that is a ceramic smd cap that sits between the amplifier part and the input part of the board.

The DSP ones however also have caps between trs/xlr input buffer stage and the input attennuation pot, and coupling caps at the input to the DSP.

Those at the input of the DSP is needed as there is a 2.5V DC bias at the output of that cap/input to the dsp...

 

I'll see if I can post a snap from REW with some measurements.

Note here that these measurements were done with the first coupling cap after the xlr buffer stage already bypassed together with the atennuation pot since I did not think that was needed in my case.

Sadly I took no rollof measurements of the amp as a whole before doing that, however it should not matter much as the signal with that cap in place was 0.6dB down at 2Hz after the cap but before the pot, and 1.2dB down at 2Hz after the cap and after pot, so no large rolloff there...

These measurements were taken with my usual signal chain consisting of a direct coupled soundcard, but AVR omitted so no rollof from signal source, all DSP settings on the inuke set to bypass.

 

Sorry for not disabling the 80Hz bass redirection filter, it would look better without it but at the time I did the measurements I was only interested in the rolloff in the <20Hz region...

Since I dont have a voltage divider set up I could not feed the amplifier output to the soundcard, instead I probed various parts of the "low level" parts of the signal path within the amp.

Tests with cone excursion of my subs seem to rhyme well with these measurements, so there does not appear to be any more parts causing rolloff than those I have measured.

 

 

Eeeh, how does one attach a picture to a post?

Does it have to be linked from URL or can I upload directly from my pc?

Have not attached any pics yet in this forum...

 

 

Anyway, I can write it up.

My measurement of the rolloff with stock coupling caps before DSP and before amp stage showed the signal to be

-4dB    @ 2Hz at the input of the amp stage coupling cap, after the DSP

-19dB  @ 2Hz at the output of the amp stage coupling cap, also after the DSP.

Just about flat response to 2Hz in the modified state it is in now.

 

From this one can tell that the majority of the rolloff are caused by the cap at the input of the amp stage.

The non dsp versions I guess would fare some 5dB better here since they seem to be lacking those extra caps I found in my dsp amp, but I'm not sure there, seeing as I have not tested any non dsp ones...

 

Giving a solid -3dB frequency here for the amp is sadly not possible from my measurements as I included my usual 80Hz bass redirection filter, so the input signal is ramped up around there, and leveling out at about 30Hz.

This means that with the pretty agressive highpass filtering of the stock amp, that trace on the graph does not reach up to the traces for the modified filters and the trace for the signal after dsp but before amp stage input since it is rolled off earlier than the redirection filter has leveled out.

Ehh, hard to describe... easy to see in pic though

[Madaeel]

MOAR?? You want MOAR?!

 

Tomorrow ok?