awedio Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 Per Powersoft: The CINESUB is a hybrid transmission line cabinet loaded with the M-Force 301P02 transducer for infra and subwoofer applications. The design has been optimized for producing low distortion and high SPL down to 16 Hz, making the CINESUB the perfect low-frequency system for cinema applications sound systems as well as for high-end home theater installations. https://www.powersoft.com/en/applications/oem-solutions/m-force-sub#cinesub https://www.powersoft.com/wp-content/uploads/datasheet/PS_CINESUB_RD.pdf Anyone planning or have plans to implement this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peniku8 Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 Don't think anyone here is planning to buy a 10-15k sub if they could DIY a blazing bass inferno for that money. I'm also pretty sure that M-Force is only sold to OEMs and installation companies, so if you want one you'd probably not be able to buy it directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awedio Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 Where are you seeing the 10-15k price? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomoTon Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 actually the price for one Transducer is at ~3000€ before taxes, with the Amps, DSP, Interfaces ect. you should land under 6k, even with the big DSP.... AND it´s much easier to get those than you might think. You don´t even need a VAT number, at least, if you get to the right salesman. I´m actually thinking to build one of the EDM subs (2x M-Force) and put it under 2-4 Skrams... I think that would be a great match up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peniku8 Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 Good info there Momo, everything on the list there is a tad cheaper than I expected But still, you pay 3000 for the driver and 2500 for the full plate amp. That's 5500€ excl. VAT, so you pay about 7k USD for the components. Now add plywood and manufacturing costs and you end up right in the 10-15k ballpark I outlined before with some wiggle room for markup. Does Powersoft actually sell the finished subs or are these subs just concepts to show what M-Drive can be used for? From a DIY perspective I think the driver+amp combo isn't too expensive (for what it delivers). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awedio Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 Why would plywood & manufacturing cost you 3+ to 7k? What kind of plywood (I’m in the US) are you using that cost that much? Is it that bad in Europe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peniku8 Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 48 minutes ago, awedio said: Why would plywood & manufacturing cost you 3+ to 7k? What kind of plywood (I’m in the US) are you using that cost that much? Is it that bad in Europe? Well yea, if it's mass produced manufacturing that will be less, but if you go to a CNC shop and ask them what it would cost for them to cnc, build and paint that thing I doubt it'll come in much below 3k including the 500 or 1000$ worth of BB. And the extra 4k is markup as I said. I don't think Powersoft sells you a finished subwoofer for the parts cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awedio Posted January 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 @peniku8i don’t where in the world you are, a 5’ x 5” sheet of BB is less than $50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peniku8 Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, awedio said: @peniku8i don’t where in the world you are, a 5’ x 5” sheet of BB is less than $50. I think the cost of BB is hardly significant here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomoTon Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 In Europe (Austria) , you would pay easy 3-400€ for the BB here. The cool thing with the price list is, one can still get a good discount on them, as those are the recommended retail prices. With the discount my salesman told me to expect (also for single units!) i could get all the parts for the EDM sub, so two M-Forces, the Amp, DSP and all the other components, for under 6k before VAT, but in austria, you just open your busines, and don't have to pay VAT. And then you have a beast that can go 145dB+ and down to under 20Hz (half space) with, as they say, nearly no compression... Damn I want to build one of those so hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3idrun Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 Damn I wish it was that cheap here in Australia, an 8ft x 4ft sheet of 18mm BB is over $200 plus shipping for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 I would certainly expect about $10K if not more for a finished retail version of the sub. If DIYing it perhaps you could get that number down to the $7K range if the components were purchased well under msrp to offset the cost of the cabinet. The amount of hardware used to professionally finish a cab like this adds up quickly. Wood, Duratex or similar, handles, lining, wire, screws, casters, grille, skid rails, etc...Lot's of labor hours too. I've heard of a few M-Force units being burned up. I wonder if they have got a handle on that. The motor/ coil system is really beefy and it's very efficient but the M-drive is capable of generating a ton of heat in it over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awedio Posted January 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 M Force Bundle kit (for starters) - all the parts you need to get started. Bundle Price - $7,196.00 MSRP each Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 Note that the xmax on these is 18mm and that's at 50% BL...Plenty for 30Hz and up work but once you start trying for 16Hz or lower cinema bass it could use a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awedio Posted January 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 Who's gonna dive in & build one of these bad boyz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atltx Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 M-Force/IPAL is a hobbyist's dream. The tech involved makes you smile for a while. Then reality sets in. I would feel bad if someone wanted to rent the thng for $200 a day from me. I like McLaren's. But would rather have an old Panterra on steroids. If I'm going all out - give me the new Panterra and the pricing is understood. Powersoft can do better and charge more. Until then...Canada has some nice stuff to plan around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awedio Posted January 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 @atltx Are you saying you own M-Force? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atltx Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, awedio said: @atltx Are you saying you own M-Force? Nope. Ricci mentioned the M-Force catching on fire thing a while ago. It would have to be limited...which is crazy and cheats any customer. AND - IPALmod has a lot of noise to deal with. Not wasting my self education on that. I want a hotrodded updated version of the Aurasound drivers that I have in a larger size. Adire Audio has an 18" named Kal with 30+mm of xmax. The xbl2 motor is attractive given TC Sounds' reputation. McCauley has an 18' that I like - Vas is through the roof. Acoustic Elegance's TDH18+ Apollo is nice. Problem is, I already have the Aurasounds in 18' and they can stand with everything I just listed for hifi sweetspot needs. I'm honestly bored with hifi after being spoiled by KEF and can go without subwoofers in that setting. I now have 3 functional NS18's that will be stored indefinately to pass on to my kids if that happens. Ripole from time to time maybe. I want to step up to PA/Sound reinforcement as a hobby now. Another hobby of mine is painting. I figured out how to buy the best SataJet for prices of entry level SataJets in the same range sold in America. Full warranty. This equals a paint job with zero color sanding and minimal overspray plus my big smile while looking at the gun. I need the same in a speaker driver. I will pay for what I want. Two Harbottle Audio Ve 24's? $9,000 to $10,000? Underhung, low inductance, lower fs, high power handling without a roomsize Vas? Make it happen with a clamshell to cut Vas in half and you get my deposit. Compare to Danley Sound Labs cinema THsub with 2 21' B&C's @ $10,000. M-Force at 16hz is a mistake. Powersoft can and should do better. Edited January 22, 2021 by atltx Powersoft not Powersound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipman725 Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 Prices lower than expected but should be there only really for people who can move big subs around but are still restricted on overall truck space (top end touring). If you can afford the volume you can match the IPAL system output using more cheaper subs like ~1000L FLH. saying that if you could buy a finished EDM sub for 10k I think it would be decent value compared to the brands like Funktion one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee_dub Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 On 1/22/2021 at 1:35 AM, h3idrun said: Damn I wish it was that cheap here in Australia, an 8ft x 4ft sheet of 18mm BB is over $200 plus shipping for me. At the risk of becoming a @h3idrun Reply Guy, here's some Melbourne plywood info: Plyco in Fairfield have 18mm Birch BB for $160/sheet and Hardwood Exterior Plywood for $100. I think they'll chop it up for a relatively modest fee if transport is an issue. Here's another supplier - don't ask me what all the terms on that page mean though! Also, Upton's in Epping sell some really cheap, VERY light plywood that I reckon I'll use at least for bracing, once I get around to building something. I can't find it on their website, but give them a call if you're interested. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahoejmfc Posted October 12, 2021 Report Share Posted October 12, 2021 Hi Everyone, I am looking into building the EDM version of the design that Powersoft has released for my art car. I currently have 2 SKRAMS with B&C 21SW152's on a QSC PL380 amp with 2 Meyer Sound UPJ Tops. The SKRAMS are amazing!!!! Thank you Josh! Instagram @jackalotus I have downloaded the plans from Powersoft and am working them through illustrator. I have spoken with the west coast Powersoft reps at Emmersive Production Services in Ventura CA who are Very Helpful. He has 2 of the 1st version M-Force Drivers he is using and loves them. I was originally introduced to the M-Force at Burning man by David Lee at Bass Boss. He had 4 of these drivers set up on a walk in horn design subwoofer running just under 60,000 watts of total power. You can see Emmersives subs on their instagram @emmersiveproduction Current Cost of 18mm Baltic Birch in Reno is 158$ for a 4x8 piece and 105$ for a 5x5 piece. The Design takes 4 sheets of 4x8 18mm Baltic birch. The CNC routing is a bit more complex, multiple pieces need to have grooves on both side of the plywood which will take some time to do properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted October 13, 2021 Report Share Posted October 13, 2021 On 10/12/2021 at 12:50 AM, Tahoejmfc said: Hi Everyone, I am looking into building the EDM version of the design that Powersoft has released for my art car. Definitely keep us updated on this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahoejmfc Posted November 17, 2021 Report Share Posted November 17, 2021 Unfortunately this project has fallen through. Powersoft just had to up the price of the M-drive and Amp, They also want my 11,500$ now and delivery will be in June, Maybe. I said I cannot give you that much money and then wait that long. They just said well in June, if you try to buy then, the wait could be even longer. So I bought 3 X 10 Watt Pangolin Unity RGB lasers instead with the money. I will plan on chasing after this maybe next summer and try again. I put together all the cut files for the cnc, have the plywood and am ready to cnc cut when they do get back in stock with out the long lead time. The plans I have ready are for the EDM sub design if anyone wants the converted to proper scale illustrator files. Emmersive Audio in Venture was helping me with this being that they are the Powersoft west coast reps. Brion is really great with my questions and owns a set of the 1st version of these drivers with Danley tops. I want these drivers on the art car alongside the SKRAMS, so this will be happening in the future. Here is the project that got me interested in these drivers, it was for a Roots Society project, built by Robert Lee of Bass Boss. 8 M-Drive 30" Drivers https://www.instagram.com/p/BKYtbHjj5LL/?utm_medium=copy_link https://www.instagram.com/p/BKBJI8-j1_-/?utm_medium=copy_link This only partly worked, the sherpa bought the wrong plywood for the horn and the bass would bust right through the osb when turned way up. INTENSE even not fully turned up. as you can see the boxes holding the subs were built with the proper birch. I want to add the photo but Im capped at 33kB for pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted November 19, 2021 Report Share Posted November 19, 2021 Wow, that's a huge bummer! Your contact is likely correct about the wait being even longer if you wait till June to order though. It looks like much of Europe is going back under lock-down again. Moreover, I don't think we've even felt the effects of summer lock-downs in Thailand and Vietnam, where quite a lot of electronics are manufactured these days. Oh, and the SoCal shipping ports are completely wrecked. Many companies are already moving manufacturing from Asia to Latin America under the assumption that the West Coast shipping situation won't be improving any time soon if at all. So to anyone who's thinking of "waiting for things to get better" before embarking on a project, you might be waiting (in regret) for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peniku8 Posted December 3, 2023 Report Share Posted December 3, 2023 I couldn't help myself... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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