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  1. 6 likes
    Kong: Skull Island (Dolby ATMOS) Level - 4 Stars (111.38dB composite) Extension - 5 Stars (1Hz) Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.84dB) Execution - TBD Overall - TBD Notes - This film delivers bass in spades, especially in the shake-and-move-stuff wheelhouse range of 12-25Hz. Clipping analysis shows flat tops in nearly every channel, Center is most egregious, but all the clipping appears to have rounded edges as if some sort of limiting was put in place like Pixels, so not completely objectionable, like Tron:Legacy clipping was. LFE channel clips with sharp corners, but low-pass filtering will smooth them out. Better movie than anticipated, but it almost always seems that way when you expect nothing from a film. Good surround use, good soundtrack. BEQ should make this a structure-endangerer. JSS
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    I just attached the plans to the first post for anyone that wants them. I've had 3 or 4 other people request these plans over in Europe. Hopefully there will be some more documented builds coming up.
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    I've mentioned it a few times before. A pair of JBL 4675C's. The 2226H drivers out of the double 15" (4508A) bottoms I sold off and replaced with AE TD15M-4 drivers with the Apollo upgrade. They are wired in series. The big 2360A "butt" lenses still have the 2446H CD's on them. Those sit on top of the MAUL's. It is a tri-amplified stereo system run from a Peavey mixer into a DCX2496 which provides processing and routing to the amps. The current amps are a 20 year old Mackie M1400i on the 2446H drivers (Run from about 600Hz up.), a Crest 8002 powers the TD15M's which run about 80-600Hz roughly and a single SP2-12000 currently has a MAUL on each channel running <80Hz. There's no surround sound and I never replaced the old projector after it died a few years back so there is no video right now either. It's just a mammoth stereo or PA as needed. It's nothing special but does the job. Eventually I planned to swap out the 2446H's for some BMS coax's or something Be and probably change the lenses too. Now I'm having thoughts of doing something different for the mids and highs entirely. Try to roll my own Synergy's or other design? Not sure what yet. I'll probably upgrade the amps first. Eventually I'll put my K20's one on each Maul and move to SP's at the house so I won't have to deal with fan noise at home anymore. I want to get a newer amp for the CD's. Only class AB or H for those though. I still don't think class D is quite as good for HF. I might just go with an A500. The power requirements on the CD's is almost nothing even at ear splitting levels. The room is in an old rundown, warehouse / factory, in a ghetto part of town. Myself and the other musicians I work with, have been renting there for 8 years or maybe more. The whole building just about is rented out to musicians, artists or people needing storage. The outdoor test spot is right out the backdoor. The room itself is a shotgun shaped space about 18ft x 15ft x 36ft. Roughly 10,000cu ft. I'm guesstimating and could be off some, since I've never actually measured it. Walls are double carpet hung over sheetmetal and studs with main building supports in there too. Flimsy and leaky as hell but the carpet hanging from the walls and the directivity of the horns actually keeps the space relatively dead. Every surface in the room except for the garage style door and the ceiling are covered in carpet. The room is over the basement level, but the floors are 4 to 5 inch thick cement type material over timbers, so it will shake some, but not easily like a suspended floor in a house. It takes a bit more energy. Ceiling is the same deal. Back wall is a brick interior wall with carpet over it. The back ground noise level is high usually of course. There are no placement options really as the room is jam packed with equipment of all sorts. It is not ideal and there are all sorts of acoustic and structural issues that color the sound. For one my drums usually sit directly in front of one side of the stack. Thankfully the horns are 8 or 9 ft off the floor well over top of them and the bass just goes around, so most of the sound ends up in the right place regardless. None of that matters really because that's not what it's about in there anyway.
  4. 3 likes
    Or, there may not be that much research done on this at all. If the subject has little interest outside audio/hifi - because audio research has always had a tendency to focus on technical properties that may not be very relevant, and less on hearing perception mechanisms. I did a test to find audibility limits for distortion not long ago. Look at these numbers. 440hz: 60dB 2h -34dB 2% 3h -50dB 0.32% 4h -50dB 0.32% 5h -53dB 0.22% 6h -50dB 0.32% 8h -58dB 0.13% 70dB 2h -34dB 2% 3h -50dB 0.32% 4h -54dB 0.2% 5h -65dB 0.056% 6h -64dB 0.063% 8h -72dB 0.025% 80dB 2h -34dB 2% 3h -34dB 2% 4h -43dB 0.71% 5h -65dB 0.056% 6h -72dB 0.025% 8h -76dB 0.016% This data suggests that the presence of a 80dB tone does not reduce hearing threshold when the frequency of the other low-level signal is sufficiently far away in frequency. Because you can see that detection level for higher order harmonics is lower in percentage as the volume increases, and if you plot this data into a frequency response chart, you can see that the detection level remains constant at threshold of hearing around 0dB, with a masking around the fundamental tone. The masking follows the level of the fundamental tone, but far away the detection level remains the same, regardless of fundamental tone loudness. The 80dB fundamental does not reduce hearing threshold, it only masks around the tone. Then we understand 2 things: - Dynamic range is at least 80dB for 80dB sound - Louder means more detail and more revealing to faults in the audio chain So, why did I not test for even louder fundamentals, say up to 120dB? That data could be interesting to have. When I did the test, it was for a different purpose, and 60 to 80dB was sufficient. Louder presents some challenges - more difficult to ensure that the only distortion present is what is being tested for, and listening to tones louder than 80dB up into the midrange is actually so loud it is quite unpleasant.
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    That may be true, but that 140dB range does not apply for short time spans, because the ear has a built-in compressor that adjusts sensitivity according to exposed sound pressure level. If a very loud 140dB peak occurs, the sensitivity is immediately reduced, so that sound at very low spl can not be heard until the ears recalibrate, and that takes some time. Purpose of this mechanism can be to protect hearing, and also is the mechanism that actually makes it possible to have such a wide dynamic range. How large is the actual dynamic range, at a given moment, for a given spl exposure? Perhaps someone knows, I am sure there has been lots of research conducted on this. This relationship has attack time, hold delay, depends on peak vs rms level. This has consequences. We see that hearing is not a time-invariant system, because the output (what we hear) depends on what happened before in time.
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    Right...That's what I mean. If you preserve incredibly high dynamic range with digital media that means your average level is going to be very low volume/signal strength, requiring much more gain to get the average sounds to a typical playback level. I wish there were more recordings like that. Just turn up the volume and the problem is solved. But the problem is, if you attempt to play a regular heavily compressed song after, it will blow your head off and make the dynamic recording sound weak in comparison. That's exactly how the loudness war started. Get the average level as high as possible. Louder=better or more noticeable. I'd like to see groups make 2 mixes. The squashed "radio" track and a much lower average volume mix with more dynamics. I see this issue as separate from your speaker system being capable of producing huge short term output. I consider that a reasonable goal that improves sound quality on a number of fronts.
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    Gjallarhorn 2 plans. GH 2 print.pdf GH 2 print.DXF
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    Othorn files. OTHORN print AUTOCAD 2000.DXF OTHORN DXF scale print.pdf
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    Back from the dead... I finally have the last 4 drivers for the second cab and have been slowly installing them. I should hopefully have the 2nd one ready to plug in late tonight. I am not looking forward to moving everything out and putting these back in the corners. I have to pull the first one back out of the corner, pull the hatches and a couple drivers and rewire it the same as the second too. Lift with the legs...
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    Heheh. Yeah, I know what you mean. I believe you when you say it is better. Just poking fun a lil at your post. You're a very smart guy and knowledgeable but it almost seemed like nothing short of perfection wasn't good enough. Do don't that to yourself. You'll never be happy.... but, it sounds like you are so ignore me. Sometimes the constant "improving" can have a detrimental effect on the enjoyment of the HT room. I had to learn to love it even with the warts and all!
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    Rented Kong last night and I really enjoyed the movie. Tons of bass throughout and the Crowsons definitely got a workout. Some great demo material with this one so I'm definitely buying it.
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    Well it's his problem when he has his mixers crank effects up so far that they become compressed, honky, clipped messes (DKR, Interstellar) with heavily filtered LFE's.
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    Thanks for the links and for the tips. Unfortunately, the majority of posted images were Photobucketed, as you say. I did look at a few images. Because most of the measurements were of the "Edge of Tomorrow" opener, which is a very different kind of signal, I decided to look at the vibration vs. time data instead. I can post a screen-shot of that measurement it if people want me to, but I think it's rather boring. It looks quite a bit like pink noise. Recall that the test sample is pink noise which is filtered fairly steeply at the top between 40-50 Hz and played at around 97 dBZ RMS, according to my mic, which is not calibrated below 5 Hz. It looks like my RMS vibration values came out to roughly 0.0055 in the X and Y axes and 0.025 in the Z axis. With a little math, I can extrapolate this to the higher levels that would likely present with peak effects, say 15-20 dB hotter, which is a factor between roughly 5 and 10 for a "level quantity" like acceleration. So with pink noise at a more spirited level, I could maybe push over 0.25g on the *really hot* effects. I believe that on something like a PvA, the pink noise response should rise toward the bottom by about 3 dB/octave, which is not unusual for some of the stuff that's bottom heavier. Comparing these extrapolated results to what I see in the thread, it seems I'm coming out on the low end of the results. Unfortunately, very few people are measuring or reporting SPL along with their vibration response, so it's hard to tell just how hot people are running things on that end Furthermore, The "Edge of Tomorrow" opener is not a very useful test signal, and it's most of what I could find on the early pages. While each fundamental frequency in the sequence hits a different part of the deep bass / ULF spectrum, the overall coverage of the spectrum is extremely narrow. I'm thinking that tomorrow I will try measuring a slow sine sweep. Unfortunately, without getting at the raw data and analyzing it, I won't get the kind of noise rejection that sine sweep impulse response measurements benefit from. I could always buy the app and whatnot, but if I'm going to spend money, I'd rather do it right. For now it's not a priority. I'm not especially bothered by the fact that my readings appear to be low. I see a lot of enthusiasm in the thread about gains made by doing stuff like mis-aligning the timing of the subs and compromising frequency response. And of course, there's the interest paid to (alleged) differences between ported and sealed subs. But I have to ask: Is this what we really want? Is tactile response so important that aspects of performance related to frequency response should be compromised? This is an especially important question when one considers that a lot of these responses may be quite ugly and full or resonances. Mine sure is in the low teens. This makes for a pretty lo-fi experience, all things considered. Another thing is that, to the extent the floor is shaking, it's likely the walls are shaking too. That can add a lot of unwanted noise to the bass experience and really kill the immersion. That's something that I believe improved with my multi-seat EQ optimization, and I wouldn't be surprised if my EQ optimization reduced my couch vibrations too. Is that really a bad thing? I happen to really how it sounds, and I can clearly hear ULF well into the low teens when it's above hearing threshold levels. I also love the very tight transient response and "bottomless" quality of the sound on un-ftilered tracks. And if the level is up there, I feel plenty of tactile sensation. It's just rather different from couch shake. On another note, I definitely think I experienced more shaking with the old Hsu subs, which were ported and tuned to 18 Hz or so. However, I noticed this even more at higher frequencies, like 25-50 Hz, above which the near-ish field MBMs took over. I seriously doubt that the fact that they were ported had anything to do with the higher frequency sensations. My strongest suspicious is that this shaking was caused by mechanical vibrations of the cabinet. The D.O. configuration eliminated those and thus "cleaned up" a whole lot of floor vibration. It took some time to get used to less shaking, and I did opt to boost the subs a bit more than before. But I'm OK with the change. To me, having a more vibrationally inert presentation is more accurate and realistic. In other news, I can add "The Incredible Hulk" to the list of movies that I *cannot* play at my preferred listening level with my system as it is calibrated. The university scene played just fine, and was actually a lot of fun. The cop car smash scene did not work out so well. The big hit at the end (when there's practically nothing left of the car) is enough to light up the orange clip lights, at only "-9" on the MV. My preferred level would be more like "-5". For all the effort I went through to get as much ULF as possible out of this system, it's still not enough for these most demanding scenes. When I upgrade the amp power source to 240V, I should get another 3 dB of headroom, but I doubt it will be very useful, being that the drivers are probably close to their clean max excursion. What disappointed me more is that I honestly can't say whether I the perceived low end of that content. Was that effect at 8 Hz? If it was there, it was very subtle. Maybe if I paid attention, I could feel my hair move or something. This is something I'll want to double blind test later along with ULF on more transient sounds. It may be that this content just isn't hot enough to perceive without the help of floor/couch motion, and clearly, I have very little of that below 11 Hz. This would then imply that the content under 10 Hz is of no interest in an *accurate* presentation. The only way you'll know it's there is if the floor or furniture is vibrating to it or if the subs are distorting enough to enhance the phantom fundamental. In a studio with concrete floors and no motion actuators, it may not be perceived at all. This does make me seriously consider Crowson's. If the goal is to make the couch shake, I'd rather use the right tool for the job. Although, this kind of upgrade will be a fair ways off. Unfortunately, I'd need another Motu unit for more output channels. And then I have to worry about my racks getting cramped with an extra amp or two. My sofa is a 5 piece sectional, which is rather inconvenient, not to mention expensive. If I used Crowsons, I think I would low pass them at around 20 Hz. As for the subs, I guess it all depends on how I feel after double blind testing. I have a lot of options there. I can EQ things less aggressively down low. I can use less boost below some frequency. I can also try to implement some kind of frequency-selective limiting, though this gets tricky with ULF if I want to avoid unnecessary phase shift. Another option I might consider is a bit more of a ramp in the ULF, which I can probably get away with if I ramp down or high pass below 10 Hz. There are still a lot of possibilities to explore.
  15. 1 like
    This is the first of it's kind objective measurement tool for comparing the bass in movies - it's totally apples-to-apples. (The measurement methodology AND content below 2.5 Stars is at the bottom of this post.) No longer do you have to rely on some website's review of the bass in a movie. Who can decipher what "aplomb" and "bombastic" and "incredibly deep" and "teeth-rattling" and "room-shuddering" really mean, anyway? Now you don't have to. The links below will take you to each movie's measurements. If a link doesn't take you to the right measurement, reload the browser by hitting F5 or just click on the address bar and hit "Enter." If you find a bad link, post about it and we'll investigate! Updated December 12, 2015 - Here's a Google docs spreadsheet with the current list. To sort, goto View-->List. 5-Star Films: 9 Edge of Tomorrow Everly Flight of the Phoenix Hellboy II: The Golden Army Pixels Ragnarok Star Trek War Horse 4.75-Star Films: All Is Lost Beowulf Captain America - The Winter Soldier Dredd Ender's Game The Golden Compass Hanna How to Train Your Dragon The Hurt Locker The Incredible Hulk Jupiter Ascending Kick-Ass 2 Live Free or Die Hard Lone Survivor Looper Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol Olympus Has Fallen Phantom Pompeii Pulse Resident Evil: Apocalypse Serenity Skyfall The Terror Live The Three Musketeers (2011) Valkyrie War of the Worlds 4.5-Star Films: 28 Weeks Later 300: Rise of an Empire 5 Days of War Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter After Earth The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Attack the Block Battle: Los Angeles Brave Cloverfield Conan the Barbarian (2011) Crank: High Voltage Daredevil The Dark Knight The Day After Tomorrow Drive Elektra Elysium Exodus: Gods and Kings The Expendables 3 Finding Nemo Gamer Getaway The Grandmaster (CHI) Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix The Iceman Insurgent Jurassic World Kon-Tiki The Man with the Iron Fists The Matrix Revolutions Ninja Assassin Oblivion Oculus Oz the Great and Powerful Percy Jackson and the Olympians: The Lightning Thief Sherlock Holmes Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (DTS) Solomon Kane Superman Returns Thor 2: The Dark World Trollhunter Underworld Awakening Walking With Dinosaurs (2013) X-Men 3 4.25-Star Films: 10,000 B.C. A Good Day to Die Hard The Admiral: Roaring Currents Adventures in Zambezia The Amazing Spider-Man Assassin's Bullet Avatar Batman Begins Black Hawk Down Bullet to the Head Captain America: The First Avenger Casino Royale Cat Run 2 Chappie Clash of the Titans The Conjuring The Dark Knight Rises Dead in Tombstone Death Race 2 Earth to Echo Evil Dead The Exorcism of Emily Rose The Expendables 2 The Grandmaster (USA) The Grey The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Homefront Horton Hears a Who Hot Fuzz Immortals Inception The Incredibles Jack the Giant Slayer John Wick Jurassic Park III Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring (BR Ext Ed) Mad Max: Fury Road Maleficent The Maze Runner Monsters, Inc. Monsters University The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones Need For Speed Ninja Non-Stop Open Range Paranoia Pearl Harbor Piranha 3D Quantom of Solace The Raid 2: Berandal Ratatouille Resident Evil: Afterlife Rise of the Planet of the Apes Running Scared Rush Scott Pilgrim Vs. the World Seventh Son Shaun of the Dead Sin City Sin City 2 Snowpiercer Star Wars: A New Hope Total Recall Transformers Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen Triangle Tron: Legacy U-571 World War Z The World's End X-Men X-Men 2 X-Men: Days of Future Past X-Men: First Class 4-Star Films: 3:10 to Yuma The Bourne Legacy The Bourne Ultimatum Children of Men Commando Constantine Crank Death Race: Inferno Despicable Me 2 Escape Plan Fight Club GI Joe: Retaliation Gravity Hercules Inside Iron Man 2 Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit Jarhead Kick-Ass Knight and Day Knowing Legends of Oz: Dorothy's Return LOTR: The Return of the King (BR Ext Ed) The Machine Max Payne Monster House Ninja: Shadow of a Tear (aka Ninja 2) Noah Pacific Rim (7.1 DTS-HD MA) The Railway Man Real Steel Resident Evil: Retribution Stalingrad Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines Terminator Salvation Thor Toy Story 2 Toy Story 3 Transformers: Age of Extinction Wall-E The Wolverine (7.1 DTS-HD Unleashed Ext Ed) 3.75-Star Films: 3 Days to Kill Alien Vs. Predator The Art of Flight Babylon A.D. Bears Bee Movie Bolt Bullet Captain Phillips Cars Don Jon The Fast and the Furious 6 Green Lantern Guardians of the Galaxy Happy Feet Hellboy Hitman Ice Age Ice Age: Dawn of the Dinosaurs Insidious Chapter 2 Interstellar Into the Woods Iron Man Jarhead 2 Jurassic Park Kingsman: The Secret Service Kung Fu Panda Limitless LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring (Theatrical BR) LOTR: The Two Towers (BR Ext Ed) The Lords of Salem Machete Kills Megamind The Raid: Redemption Rambo (2008 Theatrical) Robocop (2014) Seal Team Eight The Simpsons Movie Sinister Star Trek Into Darkness The Watch Watchmen Wrath of the Titans X-Men Origins: Wolverine 3.5-Star Films: 13 Sins 30 Days of Night The A-Team Act of Valor Alien Abduction Australia Baraka Blue Crush The Croods Dr. Seuss' The Lorax The Equalizer The Frozen Ground Fruitvale Station Fury Godzilla (2014) Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies Hulk The Hunger Games: Catching Fire The Hunger Games: Mockingjay Part 1 I, Robot Ice Age: The Meltdown King Kong (2005) The Legend of Hercules The Lego Movie The Losers Lucy Man of Steel Man of Tai Chi The Man With the Iron Fists 2 The Matrix Reloaded Mission Impossible III The Monuments Men Pain and Gain Paranormal Activity The Marked Ones Robocop Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows Speed Racer Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (BR) Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith (BR) Sunshine Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2014) This Is the End Titan AE (DVD) Transformers: Dark of the Moon Underworld: Rise of the Lycans Unstoppable You're Next Zero Dark Thirty 3.25-Star Films: 21 Jump Street American Sniper The Art of the Steal Avengers Avengers: Age of Ultron Batman: Under the Red Hood Black Sea The Book Thief Carrie (2013) Cowboys & Aliens Domino The Double Eragon Ex Machina The Family Frankenstein's Army Gangster Squad The Great Gatsby (2013) Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince The Hunger Games I, Frankenstein Into the Storm Iron Man 3 Knights of Badassdom The Last Days On Mars Marley McCanick Minority Report Out of the Furnace Planes Prometheus Reasonable Doubt Rio Runner Runner Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (BR) Taken 2 Toy Story Turbo Veronica Mars The Movie 3-Star Films: 2 Guns A Touch of Sin Battleship Big Hero 6 Blade Runner Brick Mansions The Cabin in the Woods Chronicle Dawn of the Planet of the Apes Die Hard District 9 Epic Frozen Haunter The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Ice Age: Continental Drift The International The Internship Jumper The Lone Ranger The Lost World: Jurassic Park Man On Fire Master & Commander (BR) Red 2 Resident Evil: Extinction Riddick Ride Along Saving Private Ryan Vampire Academy 2.75-Star Films: 28 Days Later Blood Ties Cloudy With A Chance of Meatballs 2 Devil's Due Die Another Day Don't Be Afraid of the Dark Dracula Untold Grudge Match Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone How to Train Your Dragon 2 I Am Number Four The Matrix Metallica Through the Never Paddington Percy Jackson: Sea of Monsters Planes: Fire and Rescue Resident Evil R.I.P.D. Whiplash 2.5-Star Films: The Babadook Bad Country Death Race Divergent The Fifth Element The Natural Rio 2
  16. 1 like
    I can't remember who gets credit for that one, but I didn't originate it. That was one clipped mess. It was horrible. JSS
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    Yes it can play up to 125Hz.I wouldn't run it as high as 150 ideally. It is really intended for below 100Hz as a subwoofer. It depends a bit on the drivers used as well. The 21Ipal drivers are smooth up until around 150Hz but the 21DS115 I expect may be a bit more choppy above 100Hz. Either way if running up that high you would definitely want to EQ down the peak at 215Hz and use a sharp 24dB/octave if not 36 or 48dB low pass for best sound quality and transition to the mains. Don't get me wrong it will melt your face off at 125-150Hz but the response gets real choppy not too far above 150 and it is best to avoid those out of band peaks being audible. Here is the expected response with the 21DS115. This isn't a real measurement set yet. Just a projection so don't take it as absolute. If this is close you would want to use 2 bands of EQ to bring down the 215Hz peak and also the bump near 125. I'll see if I can whip up the same with the 21SW152.
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    Hello from The Harbottle Audio Co. We would like to take a minute to tell all of you good people that we are an authorized dealer for Funk Audio components and Focusworks Audio drivers. These drivers and amps that are gaining rapid awareness are now available to the public. Keep in touch for special offers and promotions. You can find us at www.harbottleaudio.com
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    I watched Kong at -7dBRef (Reference Level per se for my size room, with -0dB set at 85dBC calibration), and no bad noises, but I expected some flat tops based on the listening experience. Not as bad as the 'lunge for the volume control' as in Tron:Legacy, and DEFINITELY not as bad as Star Trek:Into Deafness.... According to MrEdge's graph, GoTG2 has less of a rolloff than the original. That is a good thing. I do not use an LT boost anymore to watch films, as I get very little room gain in the new room. The Crowsons did get a workout, though. JSS
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    Dang. That's my favorite bass range for big movie LFE effects. 10-25Hz. I much prefer movies that have this type of weighting to the mix than the overly hot 25-40Hz typical action movie rumble fest. Too bad about all of the clipping though.
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    Yeah, I got one shipped over by Dave. The VAT was harsh, but it was worth it haha!
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    You're getting real close to being that old guy yelling "get off my lawn." "Back in my day..." LOL! But I agree. One of my favorites is still Dire Straits - Money for Nothing as it was one of the first CDs where I could tell it was recorded better than most of the other records of the day. Dynamics in spades.
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    Wanted to see Titanic, never saw it before. Watching the opening scenes reveals something is missing, and from what I can hear - such a pity. Can this be improved.. And it can. There is a steep 25hz high-pass, and doing the bass-eq magic retrieves some of the weight and natural balance that was lost in the studio because they had mediocre monitoring speakers. The exact numbers are on a different computer, but something like this: L,C,R: 2x sfm 22hz q=2.2 gain=+9dB, + eq to adjust for the inevitable midbass dip. LFE: 2x sfm 22hz q=2.2 gain=+9dB, 1x sfm 22hz q=2.2 gain +6dB + eq to adjust for the inevitable midbass dip. Much better, the helicopter in an early scene now sounds great, you can sense your hair moving as it comes around to land.
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    Long overdue update. Been incredibly busy lately, so here's a look at the progress I've done with this speaker.I added a preamp board into the speaker. The amplifier needed 2.7V of input sensitivity to reach full output, but my output stage on my Xonar U7 only outputs 1V. This is made from the OPA1642 op amp. The second PCB is for filtering the noisy auxiliary power from the ICEpower amp. The preamp steps up the voltage by 4x. Even though I only need 2.7x, I used 4x to allow spare headroom for the DAC. Now I can finally get full power from the amps and really crank out the SPL.There were many problems along the way. I had a lot of buzzing problems! I had a ground loop buzz problem that took a lot of effort to find the cause, and it was because the RCA connectors were directly mounted to the baffle without an isolator. Even though wood is a terrible conductor, it was enough to cause a very slight hum that was audible since the amp is running full tilt. I had another buzz problem that was extremely peculiar as well, and turns out it was a few screws that were not tightened inside. I had another buzzing problem that was because the rear end of the passive radiator isn't completely flat, so the washers were rubbing each other at high excursions. Another buzz was due to wires slapping the baskets at high volumes. 4 different sources of buzzing, and this has to be the hardest game of whack a mole I've ever played!I did some more tuning of the speaker. I need a really high quality speaker to be used as a reference for this speaker. So I went to a friend's house to use his ATC SCM150ASL's as a benchmark and reference. Before the tuning, while the Reference Mini held its own quite well, the ATC sounded noticeably better in every single metric. The speaker sounds much better after the tuning, and sounds much more similar to the ATC except in the bass. The ATC is a bit bass shy, and I like mine with more bass.
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    Probably a good idea to use musician's ear plugs (something like the Etymotics Ety Plugs) after the technical run through at that point. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B010C8HZSY/ref=mp_s_a_1_5_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1501083096&sr=8-5&keywords=etymotic+earplugs Do the run through without, to double check and confirm everything is GTG, then use the plugs to attenuate by 13-20db, while still allowing for decent fidelity (unlike regular foam plugs which tend to attenuate higher frequencies making things sound muffled). I've used (and still use) Ety plugs for certain applications, and they work well. I bought these to try https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B019M576XW/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501083683&sr=8-1-spons&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=eargasm+high+fidelity+earplugs&psc=1 for both, the slightly different design, that fits about flush to the ear canal (with small, flexible tabs for easy extraction) AND the convenient metal keychain case included. I now keep these on my keychain 24/7, in case I inadvertently find myself in a loud environment without advanced planning. Max
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    I know I'm probably over reacting, I'm just feeling like this today: As far as Nolan having hearing damage, I doubt it. I think you can sustain a constant 90-100 dB for up to two hours a day without permanent hearing damage (according to OSHA). Even with as loud as Nolan's movies get it's doubtful they'd hit that limit.
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    Hey Kyle, I noticed that the forum software went through a big update. I've noticed a few issues since then: Several links, including those posted to the front page of the "Low Frequency Content Thread" are broken. Looking more closely, I see at least two types of links there: http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/?p=269 http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/page-17#entry465 The latter type is broken, presumably because of a change in pagination of the content. It looks like the latter type can be fixed by changing it to the earlier form, i.e. /page-17#entry465 ==> /?p=465 I think these could be changed all at once using a regex. If you're not sure how to do this, I can give it a stab if you can send me the raw content of that post. Several PvA graph are broken. I don't know what's going on yet, but some are broken and some are not. The post Likes are now anonymized, which is weird. Perhaps this is an optional setting that can be tweaked? These are the things I've noticed so far. If anyone else notices issues, please feel free to add a post to this thread.
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    Just noticed that. I definitely liked the link directly to the main site!
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    This is how Powersoft K series amps operate all of the time. Those guys are smart so you'd have to assume they did that for a reason. This likely only shows up as a measureable improvement when the power draw becomes large and starts to sag the AC line. More useful for pro sound apps where you might have many amps driven hard on one circuit and/or the circuit isn't great to begin with like a generator, etc. Many years ago Ivan Beaver from Danley Sound showed me how to do this at a GTG. Flip polarity of one input channel in the amp and re-flip/correct at the speaker wiring to bring back in phase. Worked pretty good with a Crown CE4000.
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    Ok. That makes more sense. That sounds similar to my old room over a crawlspace. Little measured SPL at 12Hz but the floor was violently shaking.
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    This thread was hosed by Photobucket. Sometime this week I'll fix all the pictures and links.
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    Etymotics to the rescue! I need to find a true IMAX to see it in, though. JSS
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    Do you mean the notch at 11 Hz or the octave wide dip across the 7-14 Hz region? At the 11 Hz notch, things do shake pretty bad. I probably mentioned already, but when I probe that notch using sine waves, SPL in the low 100s dB is enough to cause some serious ceiling shaking and causes my dining room lamp to literally bounce up and down and start swinging. I fear that much more output in the narrow vicinity of that frequency will damage something, so I leave the notch there. As for the broader dip though, there isn't much happening other than at the notch and a little bit above it. BTW, my house is about 48 feet in length, which suggests that my primary "room mode" should fall right at about 12 Hz. If you look at my raw measurements, the red traces are closer to the end of the house and so should theoretically have more output than the blue traces. Likewise, the left sub is closer to the house end so should measure hotter overall. In both cases, the opposite is actually true. No, I don't mean to say that tactile sensation is exclusive to hi-fidelity at all. I was referring to couch shaking specifically, which is what these vibsensor tests are measuring. In my experience, tactile sensation is multi-dimensional. The couch/floor shaking is one dimension. The interaction of sound in the air with the body directly is another dimension. I believe these sensations feel quite distinct from one another. Typical studios probably have inert floors (e.g., concrete under the flooring material). Engineers are even known to go out of their way to reduce floor vibrations in their studios, at least at higher frequencies. If the shaking is too strong, there is a tendency for the those sensations to overwhelm and mask the sensations that are felt from the sound directly. The shaking response is also a lot less likely to be flat when SPL response is, and this could cause mixers to misjudge what's going on in the mix. By my subjective assessment, my old Hsu subs shook things a lot more, and I believe that the shaking was so strong below 30 Hz or so that it overwhelmed most of the direct tactile sensation there. Anyway, I don't mean to say that shaking sensations are "wrong". For some kinds of effects like earthquakes, shaking probably *is* the appropriate sensation. With something like thunder though, a lot of shaking is probably a lot less realistic, especially if the depicted scene is outside. I think it would be interesting if the standards provisioned an extra "SEX" (shaking effects) track, kind of like LFE, that's intended to be sent directly to tactile transducers (TTs). This would give sound designers a way to express the intent. For example, a thunder sound effect could be routed exclusively to the subs, and an earthquake effect could be routed exclusively to the TTs. It's a shame that we can't even get the industry to acknowledge a role for ULF in any capacity, even though many cinemas are now installing shakers in their seats And yeah. I guess my experience is more evidence that content under 10 Hz is not especially relevant in terms of pure sound. And furthermore, my experience should serve as a caution to those with suspended floors who would expect to feel single digits content if they install sealed subs. Clearly, a suspended floor offers no such guarantee. It all depends on the resonances. And since a response supported by resonances is not going to be high-fidelity, it may make most sense to recommend 10 Hz as the lower limit for subs and leave the single digits for tactile transducers. It'll be very interesting, when I get around to it, to find out whether I or anyone can identify the existence of single digits content from my subs in double blind testing. Edit: I should mention that I really like what I experience with good dynamic music BDs. The bass is a lot like listening outdoors, including the nice sharp punch from the kick drum. Breathing feels kind of weird with these sensations. And this is with the sub out channels barely getting above the "-48 dB" line on my Motu. The thing is, I don't think a couch vibration measurement will reveal this "punch" dimension of tactile experience, which also happens to depend a lot more on frequencies between 50 and a few hundred Hz.
  36. 1 like
    Since you want to listen a lil louder, SME... just lower the boost by the number of dB you want. Really doesn't matter since you say you couldn't appreciate the single digits as much as you hoped you would. Open up more headroom where you want it!
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    I no longer boost my subs down low chasing a flat freq response. I just use the crowsons for the <10Hz stuff (and sometimes significant amounts above 10Hz, esp at lower SPL listening). JSS
  38. 1 like
    I don't think it's fair to characterise those threads as maximum vibration chasing. Obviously there are some people who do that, just as there are people who chase extreme SPL, but mostly it's about finding out how it responds & what feels right/good. There seems a lot of variation on that point, or more specifically, the way people describe what they like seems to vary a lot. It's all about balance in the end.
  39. 1 like
    I quoted the parts I agree with most. The first paragraph is the same type of thing I have been thinking about the trend of maximum vibration chasing. I don't doubt that having a good FR, lots of SPL AND vibration, are all important aspects to consider. Some of what seems to be being suggested in those threads (That you mentioned) seems like very bad advice to me. I remember someone suggested using smaller vents to increase their particle velocity. With the amount of boost you are using Hulk will be a difficult load on your amps and drivers for sure. The cop car punch is a short but tough signal. I think a 7 or 8Hz fundamental is about right. Without tactile vibration to help transfer the <12-15Hz content it is barely there in my experience. Below 10Hz it's pretty uneventful without a major structural vibration to go with it. It makes all the difference. 32hz at 115dB is very apparent, you feel it and it is loud. 16Hz at 115dB is much less obvious but with that kind of level you can sort of hear it and still feel it. Somewhere around 12-13Hz for me it becomes hard to hear much of anything anymore unless it is strong as hell and even then it's just an odd modulation on everything else. Pressure waves like a rapid on/off switch on the ears. I've heard 12-13Hz at 115dB or so outdoors with test tones and it was subtle. It was like the rest of the background sounds I was hearing were coming from behind a fan. My current HT room is very solid. I get a ton of gain and SPL but very little shake other than from the ceiling. The single digit stuff is an occasional odd pressure sensation if it is very loud and not masked by other content and that's about it. I don't think I would miss much in my room if I only got down to the 10-15Hz range. I expected that you would have a ton of vibration near your notch in the teens. I'm surprised that you don't show more. If the energy isn't being exchanged there where is it going? That should be too low of a frequency for it to be a null induced by the room dimensions.
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    I liked Kong. I mean it's an action movie about a giant ape fighting other giant creatures so it's not going to be the most cerebral or emotional film ever but it is a fun movie. I thought it was good when taken for what it is.
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    Available by July 15th! Man18 DIY subwoofer kits. http://www.harbottleaudio.com/ We are also searching for any interest in a group buy for the UH21v1 w/2.4kW x1M3 plate amp. Please fill out the form below to voice your enthusiasm for this offer! http://www.harbottleaudio.com/special-offers.html
  42. 1 like
    Yup, soundbars do have their place. That place is "Not in my systems". One can only compromise so far. We only had to destroy one set of "small" speakers to understand that a typical set of small speakers just won't survive in our home.
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    Does DB / @Ricci get commission? HA. not from me. He might have to talk to Nathan Funk about that. but seriously though, data-bass testing is by far the most comprehensive. i'd be a dummy if i didn't point to this site. I've sat back in awe of what you guys can do, know, and understand for about 7 years now, and Im just feeling like Im getting it nailed down. Then i visit a facebook group and suddenly im a genius!
  44. 1 like
    Focusworks GUJ21v1 is now available. There are a couple of drivers in stock ready for delivery. These were used for testing by DB and Focusworks. Data-Bass test results should be coming along soon as well.
  45. 1 like
    It does over half its rated power @ 5 Hz. Just wow!
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    For the SP2-12000 testing, a fluorescent light near my work bench was flickering, so I wonder if I had some voltage drop. I was expecting the 12k to hold full power for closer to 4 seconds, but maybe my 240v 30A circuit is holding it back? Also, just in case I wasn't very clear, that's with both channels running equally but I'm only measuring the voltage off a single channel. So all in all that amp was outputting a total of 12,000w RMS for 2.5 seconds, which is really close to factory specs. That also means for 2.5 seconds the power supplies were outputting over 110A combined! For the last 4.5 seconds they were outputting over 70A, and I'm sure well before that point the capacitors were completely drained.
  47. 1 like
    SpeakerPower SP2-12000 - Both channels driven* *Both channels were driven equally but the measurements below are only from a single channel. The SP2-12000 can output these numbers below per channel (x2). Summary of the 12 second 20hz sine wave test: This was run with both channels driven like the CEA-2010 burst testing. The SP2-12000 maintained 308Vpp / 5,927w RMS for 2.5 seconds and then over the next second decreased to 228Vpp / 3,248w RMS and maintained that for another 2 seconds. It then gradually decreased again to 206Vpp / 2,651w RMS and held that for 4.5 seconds until the end of the 12 second test. At the end of the 12 seconds the amp was still cold to the touch and the fans were idle.
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    Here is what the manufacturers recommend. Sealed enclosure 0.7 Q, with recommended power to reach Xmax. GUJ18V1 150L 2000 watts TSAD18V1-R 100L 2000 watts (based on preliminary specs, subject to change) GUJ21V1 275L 2000 watts TSAD21V1 250L 1500 watts (based on preliminary specs, subject to change)
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    That is an excellent question and it will be answered. In order to give everyone a comprehensive view of these drivers and how they compare, we will be compiling recommended enclosure designs and sizes over the next few days. Keep an eye on our website and this thread for details. Thank you. The H.A.C.
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