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  1. 8 points
    Final quarter of 2017 update. JTR Speakers Captivator 212Pro results have just been posted. KRK Systems 12S2 subwoofer testing is done. Should be posted next. WW Speakers / Mark Seaton designed X21 cabinet loaded with B&C 21DS115-4 driver testing is done. Will be posted ASAP as well. This was tested with both vents open and with a vent plugged and with both the Powersoft K20 and an Inuke 3000DSP. That's 4 full measurement sets. We're killing a lot birds with one stone on this one. We have some information on the Inuke 3000DSP amp driving a real load. We have the 21DS115-4 driver itself, which a lot of people are interested in and lastly we have the X21 vented cabinet which is available off the shelf to fit a variety of pro 21's. I tell you the cab is built solid and of course Mark designed it well. It is not cheap but it certainly offers an easy button option. Next up is a set of 3 subwoofers from one of the commercial vendors. I'm not totally sure these will be public on the site since the MFG reserves the right to decide whether the results are public or private. I believe they will be though as so far their behavior appears to be well designed. And...After that...I have a couple of cabs from a pro audio company that will be on deck. Not sure these will be public yet either but I suspect so. I'm trying to get this all tested and posted by the end of the year. That's the goal. I have more DIY type driver tests sitting in the wings too.
  2. 6 points
    Kong: Skull Island (Dolby ATMOS) Level - 4 Stars (111.38dB composite) Extension - 5 Stars (1Hz) Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.84dB) Execution - TBD Overall - TBD Notes - This film delivers bass in spades, especially in the shake-and-move-stuff wheelhouse range of 12-25Hz. Clipping analysis shows flat tops in nearly every channel, Center is most egregious, but all the clipping appears to have rounded edges as if some sort of limiting was put in place like Pixels, so not completely objectionable, like Tron:Legacy clipping was. LFE channel clips with sharp corners, but low-pass filtering will smooth them out. Better movie than anticipated, but it almost always seems that way when you expect nothing from a film. Good surround use, good soundtrack. BEQ should make this a structure-endangerer. JSS
  3. 6 points
    I just attached the plans to the first post for anyone that wants them. I've had 3 or 4 other people request these plans over in Europe. Hopefully there will be some more documented builds coming up.
  4. 4 points
    I've mentioned it a few times before. A pair of JBL 4675C's. The 2226H drivers out of the double 15" (4508A) bottoms I sold off and replaced with AE TD15M-4 drivers with the Apollo upgrade. They are wired in series. The big 2360A "butt" lenses still have the 2446H CD's on them. Those sit on top of the MAUL's. It is a tri-amplified stereo system run from a Peavey mixer into a DCX2496 which provides processing and routing to the amps. The current amps are a 20 year old Mackie M1400i on the 2446H drivers (Run from about 600Hz up.), a Crest 8002 powers the TD15M's which run about 80-600Hz roughly and a single SP2-12000 currently has a MAUL on each channel running <80Hz. There's no surround sound and I never replaced the old projector after it died a few years back so there is no video right now either. It's just a mammoth stereo or PA as needed. It's nothing special but does the job. Eventually I planned to swap out the 2446H's for some BMS coax's or something Be and probably change the lenses too. Now I'm having thoughts of doing something different for the mids and highs entirely. Try to roll my own Synergy's or other design? Not sure what yet. I'll probably upgrade the amps first. Eventually I'll put my K20's one on each Maul and move to SP's at the house so I won't have to deal with fan noise at home anymore. I want to get a newer amp for the CD's. Only class AB or H for those though. I still don't think class D is quite as good for HF. I might just go with an A500. The power requirements on the CD's is almost nothing even at ear splitting levels. The room is in an old rundown, warehouse / factory, in a ghetto part of town. Myself and the other musicians I work with, have been renting there for 8 years or maybe more. The whole building just about is rented out to musicians, artists or people needing storage. The outdoor test spot is right out the backdoor. The room itself is a shotgun shaped space about 18ft x 15ft x 36ft. Roughly 10,000cu ft. I'm guesstimating and could be off some, since I've never actually measured it. Walls are double carpet hung over sheetmetal and studs with main building supports in there too. Flimsy and leaky as hell but the carpet hanging from the walls and the directivity of the horns actually keeps the space relatively dead. Every surface in the room except for the garage style door and the ceiling are covered in carpet. The room is over the basement level, but the floors are 4 to 5 inch thick cement type material over timbers, so it will shake some, but not easily like a suspended floor in a house. It takes a bit more energy. Ceiling is the same deal. Back wall is a brick interior wall with carpet over it. The back ground noise level is high usually of course. There are no placement options really as the room is jam packed with equipment of all sorts. It is not ideal and there are all sorts of acoustic and structural issues that color the sound. For one my drums usually sit directly in front of one side of the stack. Thankfully the horns are 8 or 9 ft off the floor well over top of them and the bass just goes around, so most of the sound ends up in the right place regardless. None of that matters really because that's not what it's about in there anyway.
  5. 3 points
    Crowsons and even speakers should be fine, like SME said, the LFE channel will have a lowpass that smooths out the corners. I really only found sharp corners objectionable on a few films. Tron:Legacy and Star Trek:Into Deafness were the two that are the worst standouts. But many films clip. Many times it is not objectionable. For instance, both Iron Man and Iron Man 2 clip a lot whenever the repulsors are firing, but I never found it problematic, as the closest thing to repulsors are jet engines, which clip our ears. But when you clip a violin, or something that is very familiar, it just sounds wrong. Star Trek 2009, for all its accolades, clips the warp booms (WTF are they 'supposed' to sound like?). But they still sound great. At the same time, the film clips hardly anything else. JSS
  6. 3 points
    Or, there may not be that much research done on this at all. If the subject has little interest outside audio/hifi - because audio research has always had a tendency to focus on technical properties that may not be very relevant, and less on hearing perception mechanisms. I did a test to find audibility limits for distortion not long ago. Look at these numbers. 440hz: 60dB 2h -34dB 2% 3h -50dB 0.32% 4h -50dB 0.32% 5h -53dB 0.22% 6h -50dB 0.32% 8h -58dB 0.13% 70dB 2h -34dB 2% 3h -50dB 0.32% 4h -54dB 0.2% 5h -65dB 0.056% 6h -64dB 0.063% 8h -72dB 0.025% 80dB 2h -34dB 2% 3h -34dB 2% 4h -43dB 0.71% 5h -65dB 0.056% 6h -72dB 0.025% 8h -76dB 0.016% This data suggests that the presence of a 80dB tone does not reduce hearing threshold when the frequency of the other low-level signal is sufficiently far away in frequency. Because you can see that detection level for higher order harmonics is lower in percentage as the volume increases, and if you plot this data into a frequency response chart, you can see that the detection level remains constant at threshold of hearing around 0dB, with a masking around the fundamental tone. The masking follows the level of the fundamental tone, but far away the detection level remains the same, regardless of fundamental tone loudness. The 80dB fundamental does not reduce hearing threshold, it only masks around the tone. Then we understand 2 things: - Dynamic range is at least 80dB for 80dB sound - Louder means more detail and more revealing to faults in the audio chain So, why did I not test for even louder fundamentals, say up to 120dB? That data could be interesting to have. When I did the test, it was for a different purpose, and 60 to 80dB was sufficient. Louder presents some challenges - more difficult to ensure that the only distortion present is what is being tested for, and listening to tones louder than 80dB up into the midrange is actually so loud it is quite unpleasant.
  7. 3 points
    That may be true, but that 140dB range does not apply for short time spans, because the ear has a built-in compressor that adjusts sensitivity according to exposed sound pressure level. If a very loud 140dB peak occurs, the sensitivity is immediately reduced, so that sound at very low spl can not be heard until the ears recalibrate, and that takes some time. Purpose of this mechanism can be to protect hearing, and also is the mechanism that actually makes it possible to have such a wide dynamic range. How large is the actual dynamic range, at a given moment, for a given spl exposure? Perhaps someone knows, I am sure there has been lots of research conducted on this. This relationship has attack time, hold delay, depends on peak vs rms level. This has consequences. We see that hearing is not a time-invariant system, because the output (what we hear) depends on what happened before in time.
  8. 3 points
    Right...That's what I mean. If you preserve incredibly high dynamic range with digital media that means your average level is going to be very low volume/signal strength, requiring much more gain to get the average sounds to a typical playback level. I wish there were more recordings like that. Just turn up the volume and the problem is solved. But the problem is, if you attempt to play a regular heavily compressed song after, it will blow your head off and make the dynamic recording sound weak in comparison. That's exactly how the loudness war started. Get the average level as high as possible. Louder=better or more noticeable. I'd like to see groups make 2 mixes. The squashed "radio" track and a much lower average volume mix with more dynamics. I see this issue as separate from your speaker system being capable of producing huge short term output. I consider that a reasonable goal that improves sound quality on a number of fronts.
  9. 3 points
    Gjallarhorn 2 plans. GH 2 print.pdf GH 2 print.DXF
  10. 3 points
    Othorn files. OTHORN print AUTOCAD 2000.DXF OTHORN DXF scale print.pdf
  11. 3 points
    Back from the dead... I finally have the last 4 drivers for the second cab and have been slowly installing them. I should hopefully have the 2nd one ready to plug in late tonight. I am not looking forward to moving everything out and putting these back in the corners. I have to pull the first one back out of the corner, pull the hatches and a couple drivers and rewire it the same as the second too. Lift with the legs...
  12. 2 points
    This is the first of it's kind objective measurement tool for comparing the bass in movies - it's totally apples-to-apples. (The measurement methodology AND content below 2.5 Stars is at the bottom of this post.) No longer do you have to rely on some website's review of the bass in a movie. Who can decipher what "aplomb" and "bombastic" and "incredibly deep" and "teeth-rattling" and "room-shuddering" really mean, anyway? Now you don't have to. The links below will take you to each movie's measurements. If a link doesn't take you to the right measurement, reload the browser by hitting F5 or just click on the address bar and hit "Enter." If you find a bad link, post about it and we'll investigate! Updated December 12, 2015 - Here's a Google docs spreadsheet with the current list. To sort, goto View-->List. 5-Star Films: 9 Edge of Tomorrow Everly Flight of the Phoenix Hellboy II: The Golden Army Pixels Ragnarok Star Trek War Horse 4.75-Star Films: All Is Lost Beowulf Captain America - The Winter Soldier Dredd Ender's Game The Golden Compass Hanna How to Train Your Dragon The Hurt Locker The Incredible Hulk Jupiter Ascending Kick-Ass 2 Live Free or Die Hard Lone Survivor Looper Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol Olympus Has Fallen Phantom Pompeii Pulse Resident Evil: Apocalypse Serenity Skyfall The Terror Live The Three Musketeers (2011) Valkyrie War of the Worlds 4.5-Star Films: 28 Weeks Later 300: Rise of an Empire 5 Days of War Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter After Earth The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Attack the Block Battle: Los Angeles Brave Cloverfield Conan the Barbarian (2011) Crank: High Voltage Daredevil The Dark Knight The Day After Tomorrow Drive Elektra Elysium Exodus: Gods and Kings The Expendables 3 Finding Nemo Gamer Getaway The Grandmaster (CHI) Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix The Iceman Insurgent Jurassic World Kon-Tiki The Man with the Iron Fists The Matrix Revolutions Ninja Assassin Oblivion Oculus Oz the Great and Powerful Percy Jackson and the Olympians: The Lightning Thief Sherlock Holmes Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (DTS) Solomon Kane Superman Returns Thor 2: The Dark World Trollhunter Underworld Awakening Walking With Dinosaurs (2013) X-Men 3 4.25-Star Films: 10,000 B.C. A Good Day to Die Hard The Admiral: Roaring Currents Adventures in Zambezia The Amazing Spider-Man Assassin's Bullet Avatar Batman Begins Black Hawk Down Bullet to the Head Captain America: The First Avenger Casino Royale Cat Run 2 Chappie Clash of the Titans The Conjuring The Dark Knight Rises Dead in Tombstone Death Race 2 Earth to Echo Evil Dead The Exorcism of Emily Rose The Expendables 2 The Grandmaster (USA) The Grey The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Homefront Horton Hears a Who Hot Fuzz Immortals Inception The Incredibles Jack the Giant Slayer John Wick Jurassic Park III Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Ga'Hoole LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring (BR Ext Ed) Mad Max: Fury Road Maleficent The Maze Runner Monsters, Inc. Monsters University The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones Need For Speed Ninja Non-Stop Open Range Paranoia Pearl Harbor Piranha 3D Quantom of Solace The Raid 2: Berandal Ratatouille Resident Evil: Afterlife Rise of the Planet of the Apes Running Scared Rush Scott Pilgrim Vs. the World Seventh Son Shaun of the Dead Sin City Sin City 2 Snowpiercer Star Wars: A New Hope Total Recall Transformers Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen Triangle Tron: Legacy U-571 World War Z The World's End X-Men X-Men 2 X-Men: Days of Future Past X-Men: First Class 4-Star Films: 3:10 to Yuma The Bourne Legacy The Bourne Ultimatum Children of Men Commando Constantine Crank Death Race: Inferno Despicable Me 2 Escape Plan Fight Club GI Joe: Retaliation Gravity Hercules Inside Iron Man 2 Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit Jarhead Kick-Ass Knight and Day Knowing Legends of Oz: Dorothy's Return LOTR: The Return of the King (BR Ext Ed) The Machine Max Payne Monster House Ninja: Shadow of a Tear (aka Ninja 2) Noah Pacific Rim (7.1 DTS-HD MA) The Railway Man Real Steel Resident Evil: Retribution Stalingrad Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines Terminator Salvation Thor Toy Story 2 Toy Story 3 Transformers: Age of Extinction Wall-E The Wolverine (7.1 DTS-HD Unleashed Ext Ed) 3.75-Star Films: 3 Days to Kill Alien Vs. Predator The Art of Flight Babylon A.D. Bears Bee Movie Bolt Bullet Captain Phillips Cars Don Jon The Fast and the Furious 6 Green Lantern Guardians of the Galaxy Happy Feet Hellboy Hitman Ice Age Ice Age: Dawn of the Dinosaurs Insidious Chapter 2 Interstellar Into the Woods Iron Man Jarhead 2 Jurassic Park Kingsman: The Secret Service Kung Fu Panda Limitless LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring (Theatrical BR) LOTR: The Two Towers (BR Ext Ed) The Lords of Salem Machete Kills Megamind The Raid: Redemption Rambo (2008 Theatrical) Robocop (2014) Seal Team Eight The Simpsons Movie Sinister Star Trek Into Darkness The Watch Watchmen Wrath of the Titans X-Men Origins: Wolverine 3.5-Star Films: 13 Sins 30 Days of Night The A-Team Act of Valor Alien Abduction Australia Baraka Blue Crush The Croods Dr. Seuss' The Lorax The Equalizer The Frozen Ground Fruitvale Station Fury Godzilla (2014) Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies Hulk The Hunger Games: Catching Fire The Hunger Games: Mockingjay Part 1 I, Robot Ice Age: The Meltdown King Kong (2005) The Legend of Hercules The Lego Movie The Losers Lucy Man of Steel Man of Tai Chi The Man With the Iron Fists 2 The Matrix Reloaded Mission Impossible III The Monuments Men Pain and Gain Paranormal Activity The Marked Ones Robocop Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows Speed Racer Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (BR) Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith (BR) Sunshine Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2014) This Is the End Titan AE (DVD) Transformers: Dark of the Moon Underworld: Rise of the Lycans Unstoppable You're Next Zero Dark Thirty 3.25-Star Films: 21 Jump Street American Sniper The Art of the Steal Avengers Avengers: Age of Ultron Batman: Under the Red Hood Black Sea The Book Thief Carrie (2013) Cowboys & Aliens Domino The Double Eragon Ex Machina The Family Frankenstein's Army Gangster Squad The Great Gatsby (2013) Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince The Hunger Games I, Frankenstein Into the Storm Iron Man 3 Knights of Badassdom The Last Days On Mars Marley McCanick Minority Report Out of the Furnace Planes Prometheus Reasonable Doubt Rio Runner Runner Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (BR) Taken 2 Toy Story Turbo Veronica Mars The Movie 3-Star Films: 2 Guns A Touch of Sin Battleship Big Hero 6 Blade Runner Brick Mansions The Cabin in the Woods Chronicle Dawn of the Planet of the Apes Die Hard District 9 Epic Frozen Haunter The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Ice Age: Continental Drift The International The Internship Jumper The Lone Ranger The Lost World: Jurassic Park Man On Fire Master & Commander (BR) Red 2 Resident Evil: Extinction Riddick Ride Along Saving Private Ryan Vampire Academy 2.75-Star Films: 28 Days Later Blood Ties Cloudy With A Chance of Meatballs 2 Devil's Due Die Another Day Don't Be Afraid of the Dark Dracula Untold Grudge Match Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone How to Train Your Dragon 2 I Am Number Four The Matrix Metallica Through the Never Paddington Percy Jackson: Sea of Monsters Planes: Fire and Rescue Resident Evil R.I.P.D. Whiplash 2.5-Star Films: The Babadook Bad Country Death Race Divergent The Fifth Element The Natural Rio 2
  13. 2 points
    So after reading this thread over the past year and amazed and the technical depth and extreme attention to detail paid to the tuning of this system and going "man I really want to hear this!", I flew and went to check out this system. And boy what an amazing system to listen to! My mind was blown as I was amazed by one thing after the other. All the work put into getting the tonal balance of this speaker correct really paid off big time. The whole system just sounds really "correct", and the more I listen to it the more I'm amazed by it. I brought my Reference Mini's with me as a comparison, and there was a very obvious difference in sound quality. I thought my speakers sounded really great, but it sound noticeably "off" when compared to this system. The speakers had a fantastic amount of detail, and the transients are awesome! It felt like I'm listening to a pair of really good headphones (and few people realize how hard and impressive it is to achieve this), but I also get the enveloping sound that makes speaker listening so pleasurable. It's the best of both worlds. What's even more impressive is the bass. I don't think I've heard bass so tight and full sounding in a room, which is clearly due to the complex integration efforts of multiple subs and individual EQ's to get such flat bass over a large number of seats. The clarity and tightness is seriously impressive. Again, just like a headphone, and that is actually something I've never heard before from a subwoofer. It is straight up the best sounding bass I've heard in a room. Now when you also get the whole body physical sensation from bass, addictive is an understatement. One thing that is unforgettable and blew my mind is how great the speakers sound in the kitchen! I don't think SME has ever mentioned this, but it was indeed one of his goals. It was remarkable hearing a correct tonal balance with almost no treble roll off in a different room! I still can't believe this is achievable. It must be the combination of controlled directivity speakers and properly placed diffusers pulled this amazing magic trick of a feat. I've heard a lot of amazing home theaters, but this is the first time I heard imaging from surrounds. It was trippy to be able to pinpoint the location of the sound going across the rear stage. I really wish we watched an action movie and be able to so accurately track the position of the sound effects. This is even more impressive as I seem to clearly have less ability to hear imaging compared to other people. Speaking about imaging, the speakers reproduced phase manipulated music tracks far more accurately than anything I've heard so far. It must be the room treatments that are preserving the phase accuracy of the speakers. It was like "oh this is where it is supposed to sound!" I was also exposed to the dark secrets of the time domain in room correction. That was a revelation to me to be exposed to so much more information and tools to analyze room acoustics. Now it makes sense why and how the room is mucking up the sound. It's all in the time domain! Now I am able to correlate measurements and subjective judgment of how good (or bad) the room sounds. I have so much to dig and play around with now. Measurements really can tell you about how good something sounds if you look at the right things and how to interpret it properly. Thank you SME and his wife for being such amazingly gracious hosts. That was one hell of a weekend! Oh, and did I make it clear enough that your system sounds good?
  14. 2 points
    Just made all of the good stuff for this visible. Please discuss here.
  15. 2 points
    A new addition for my space, Nathan's new 21.0LX, based on the UH21 driver.
  16. 2 points
  17. 2 points
    That would be the Katz recording, here (registration required): https://www.digido.com/portfolio-item/we-have-lift-off-now-in-surround/ Make sure you get the 4.0 version without the music. The recording at the public viewing area peaks in the 120s. Of course, that's like 3 miles away from the actual launch site.
  18. 2 points
    Heheh. Yeah, I know what you mean. I believe you when you say it is better. Just poking fun a lil at your post. You're a very smart guy and knowledgeable but it almost seemed like nothing short of perfection wasn't good enough. Do don't that to yourself. You'll never be happy.... but, it sounds like you are so ignore me. Sometimes the constant "improving" can have a detrimental effect on the enjoyment of the HT room. I had to learn to love it even with the warts and all!
  19. 2 points
  20. 2 points
    Rented Kong last night and I really enjoyed the movie. Tons of bass throughout and the Crowsons definitely got a workout. Some great demo material with this one so I'm definitely buying it.
  21. 2 points
    Well it's his problem when he has his mixers crank effects up so far that they become compressed, honky, clipped messes (DKR, Interstellar) with heavily filtered LFE's.
  22. 2 points
    Thanks for the links and for the tips. Unfortunately, the majority of posted images were Photobucketed, as you say. I did look at a few images. Because most of the measurements were of the "Edge of Tomorrow" opener, which is a very different kind of signal, I decided to look at the vibration vs. time data instead. I can post a screen-shot of that measurement it if people want me to, but I think it's rather boring. It looks quite a bit like pink noise. Recall that the test sample is pink noise which is filtered fairly steeply at the top between 40-50 Hz and played at around 97 dBZ RMS, according to my mic, which is not calibrated below 5 Hz. It looks like my RMS vibration values came out to roughly 0.0055 in the X and Y axes and 0.025 in the Z axis. With a little math, I can extrapolate this to the higher levels that would likely present with peak effects, say 15-20 dB hotter, which is a factor between roughly 5 and 10 for a "level quantity" like acceleration. So with pink noise at a more spirited level, I could maybe push over 0.25g on the *really hot* effects. I believe that on something like a PvA, the pink noise response should rise toward the bottom by about 3 dB/octave, which is not unusual for some of the stuff that's bottom heavier. Comparing these extrapolated results to what I see in the thread, it seems I'm coming out on the low end of the results. Unfortunately, very few people are measuring or reporting SPL along with their vibration response, so it's hard to tell just how hot people are running things on that end Furthermore, The "Edge of Tomorrow" opener is not a very useful test signal, and it's most of what I could find on the early pages. While each fundamental frequency in the sequence hits a different part of the deep bass / ULF spectrum, the overall coverage of the spectrum is extremely narrow. I'm thinking that tomorrow I will try measuring a slow sine sweep. Unfortunately, without getting at the raw data and analyzing it, I won't get the kind of noise rejection that sine sweep impulse response measurements benefit from. I could always buy the app and whatnot, but if I'm going to spend money, I'd rather do it right. For now it's not a priority. I'm not especially bothered by the fact that my readings appear to be low. I see a lot of enthusiasm in the thread about gains made by doing stuff like mis-aligning the timing of the subs and compromising frequency response. And of course, there's the interest paid to (alleged) differences between ported and sealed subs. But I have to ask: Is this what we really want? Is tactile response so important that aspects of performance related to frequency response should be compromised? This is an especially important question when one considers that a lot of these responses may be quite ugly and full or resonances. Mine sure is in the low teens. This makes for a pretty lo-fi experience, all things considered. Another thing is that, to the extent the floor is shaking, it's likely the walls are shaking too. That can add a lot of unwanted noise to the bass experience and really kill the immersion. That's something that I believe improved with my multi-seat EQ optimization, and I wouldn't be surprised if my EQ optimization reduced my couch vibrations too. Is that really a bad thing? I happen to really how it sounds, and I can clearly hear ULF well into the low teens when it's above hearing threshold levels. I also love the very tight transient response and "bottomless" quality of the sound on un-ftilered tracks. And if the level is up there, I feel plenty of tactile sensation. It's just rather different from couch shake. On another note, I definitely think I experienced more shaking with the old Hsu subs, which were ported and tuned to 18 Hz or so. However, I noticed this even more at higher frequencies, like 25-50 Hz, above which the near-ish field MBMs took over. I seriously doubt that the fact that they were ported had anything to do with the higher frequency sensations. My strongest suspicious is that this shaking was caused by mechanical vibrations of the cabinet. The D.O. configuration eliminated those and thus "cleaned up" a whole lot of floor vibration. It took some time to get used to less shaking, and I did opt to boost the subs a bit more than before. But I'm OK with the change. To me, having a more vibrationally inert presentation is more accurate and realistic. In other news, I can add "The Incredible Hulk" to the list of movies that I *cannot* play at my preferred listening level with my system as it is calibrated. The university scene played just fine, and was actually a lot of fun. The cop car smash scene did not work out so well. The big hit at the end (when there's practically nothing left of the car) is enough to light up the orange clip lights, at only "-9" on the MV. My preferred level would be more like "-5". For all the effort I went through to get as much ULF as possible out of this system, it's still not enough for these most demanding scenes. When I upgrade the amp power source to 240V, I should get another 3 dB of headroom, but I doubt it will be very useful, being that the drivers are probably close to their clean max excursion. What disappointed me more is that I honestly can't say whether I the perceived low end of that content. Was that effect at 8 Hz? If it was there, it was very subtle. Maybe if I paid attention, I could feel my hair move or something. This is something I'll want to double blind test later along with ULF on more transient sounds. It may be that this content just isn't hot enough to perceive without the help of floor/couch motion, and clearly, I have very little of that below 11 Hz. This would then imply that the content under 10 Hz is of no interest in an *accurate* presentation. The only way you'll know it's there is if the floor or furniture is vibrating to it or if the subs are distorting enough to enhance the phantom fundamental. In a studio with concrete floors and no motion actuators, it may not be perceived at all. This does make me seriously consider Crowson's. If the goal is to make the couch shake, I'd rather use the right tool for the job. Although, this kind of upgrade will be a fair ways off. Unfortunately, I'd need another Motu unit for more output channels. And then I have to worry about my racks getting cramped with an extra amp or two. My sofa is a 5 piece sectional, which is rather inconvenient, not to mention expensive. If I used Crowsons, I think I would low pass them at around 20 Hz. As for the subs, I guess it all depends on how I feel after double blind testing. I have a lot of options there. I can EQ things less aggressively down low. I can use less boost below some frequency. I can also try to implement some kind of frequency-selective limiting, though this gets tricky with ULF if I want to avoid unnecessary phase shift. Another option I might consider is a bit more of a ramp in the ULF, which I can probably get away with if I ramp down or high pass below 10 Hz. There are still a lot of possibilities to explore.
  23. 1 point
  24. 1 point
    I don't think anyone has but you could. I wouldn't advise it for actual touring use but if they won't be moved that much it should be ok.
  25. 1 point
    Looking at some comparisons, in the music range (above 45hz):
  26. 1 point
    admittedly I haven't reduced the capacity in my system at any time yet but I think I must be at the point where moar genuinely is overkill (at least without changes that allow me to put more subs in the room anyway). I did have a pair of low teens xmax 12s behind me which gave solid response down to ~14-15Hz in the NF position whereas I now have a pair of high xmax 18s so that yields something like 5-6x the Vd. This is quite a large uptick. Admittedly part of the reason is to get a larger radiating area so even that impact across the sofa but it remains to be seen whether my wife appreciates that anyway back to the subject of this thread... I ran some quick tests today to check for port noise, I went to ~112dB (at the LP) with no noise at all & you could just about feel the air if you put your hand on the port. I used REW's CEA-2010 signal for that test at 16, 20 & 25, the only distortion product visible (at that ~112dB level) was 40-50dB down so basically non existent. I'll push that some more another time just to see what happens. I haven't had a chance to properly run through some listening sessions yet so will leave any subjective commentary til later.
  27. 1 point
    An 18" behind your couch? That's a joke compared to what two Skhorn's will do. IIRC, @Beastaudio is running *one* Skhorn these with together with 8 x 18s to handle the ULF. If you are using these for home theater, you could probably just plug a port or two for more extension. If you make them easy enough to remove, you could even switch back and forth depending on content.
  28. 1 point
    This is what it looks like if anyone wants to see,
  29. 1 point
    Kvalsvoll, have you tried any of the Danley Sound Labs recordings? http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tom-danleys-mic-recordings/ A friend of mine who has spent many hours behind the handlebars of a shovelhead was downright shocked at the realism afforded by the recording of Donny's Harley. You could 'feel' the individual cylinder pulses from ~ 4 meters away. I tried uploading the zipped file, but it exceeds the attachment limit.
  30. 1 point
    Today I listened to some albums I found yesterday, when it was too late to play at realistic volume. First some brass-band music, that I would normally never listen to. But the experience makes it so captivating, I just have to listen to one more track. Is it like the real thing? Honestly, how can I know. The individual instruments are here, placed on a scene in front of me, inside a room much larger and with very different acoustics from the Room2 I am physically sitting in. The recording renders instruments and room from the recording in a way that does not sound like it comes from 2 small speakers. So, this must be a very spectacular recording, with very special qualities? Fact is, most recordings share many of those properties - individual instruments rendered with true physical size, lots of space and room from the recording. They are different - tonal balance, clarity, dynamics, bass character, room, instrument image. The presentation takes on the character from the recording. Why is it so. Room acoustics and speakers. The radiation pattern of the speakers and the acoustic treatment in Room2 together makes this. Early reflections are suppressed across most of the audible frequency range, while later reflected energy is allowed to contribute. It is the removal of early reflections that creates the clarity and separation, while the later reflections contributes to amplify the room information from the recording. To be able to move on, to improve things further, this is a starting point. How long does the ISD-gap need to be, is it enough to suppress reflections below around -35dB within the gap, what about frequency range for the gap? Do we need horns? How large horns do we need? What radiation pattern should we choose? What about the reflected energy after the ISD - how strong, how fast should the decay be? Then there is transient response. We often call it dynamics, but that is strictly not the same as being able to reproduce percussive instruments with realism. This is where, in my experience, all typical hifi-speakers fail most. A bigger speaker, with more capacity and more directivity control, with drivers that has much better transient response, is in a different league. In this context - how do we compare and rate speakers. How can we set up a controlled (which implies at least blind) listening test to evaluate and compare speakers. It may be necessary to do tests focused on a very small subset of properties, so that a complete evaluation needs several listening tests, which then after can be combined to make some kind of overall measure of sound quality.
  31. 1 point
    You guys ever catch a Ricci system pic in the wild?
  32. 1 point
    I bought that space shuttle blu ray, the one narrated by Leonardo di Caprio - the shuttle launch is a ruined, clipped, utterly flat-topped mess - I was concerned for my speakers!
  33. 1 point
    Well, I watched Kong Skull Island this weekend. Not going to list the level because it was low. But I thought it sounded really good and the Crowsons did add a nice touch to it. I give it high marks for audio. I only have a 5.1 system but I used the Atmos sound track so I got the 5.1 TRUHD audio. I don't know if the DTS-MA track would sound any different (better).
  34. 1 point
    I watched Kong at -7dBRef (Reference Level per se for my size room, with -0dB set at 85dBC calibration), and no bad noises, but I expected some flat tops based on the listening experience. Not as bad as the 'lunge for the volume control' as in Tron:Legacy, and DEFINITELY not as bad as Star Trek:Into Deafness.... According to MrEdge's graph, GoTG2 has less of a rolloff than the original. That is a good thing. I do not use an LT boost anymore to watch films, as I get very little room gain in the new room. The Crowsons did get a workout, though. JSS
  35. 1 point
    http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2763785-ultimate-list-bass-movies-w-frequency-charts.html
  36. 1 point
    BEQ? Are you crazy? I'm not sure I'll be able to play back a BEQed version at my typical reference level. Look at that near-DC peak that's already pushing up to -20 dBFS. Edit: I guess that's what Crowson's are for. I am starting to think about getting those some day.
  37. 1 point
    I bet if this experiment were repeated with subwoofer tones, the trends seen would be even more extreme. The other night, I heard another system with some JBL subs, ported to 25 Hz or whatever, and I couldn't believe how loud they were. My own subs at the same SPL are barely there. When bass is reproduced cleanly, there's remarkably little to hear. It's almost all feeling.
  38. 1 point
    I watched "Thor" with BEQ tonight. It's the first time I've watched "Thor" on the new system, and I'm glad I waited. This was a very loud track with a lot of wide-band upper mid / high frequency effects. And of course there is clipping in a lot of places. However, I was pleasantly surprised by how good it sounded at my usual "-4" playback level and without any roll-offs applied, even at the top. The loud effects were never uncomfortable or harsh. In some sense, this was a great mix for the mixers, but not so much for those with inferior systems, which would tend to not handle the harsh, overdriven waveforms as gracefully. Certainly the last time I watched this on mere "92 dB/2.83V/1m" speakers, I found it to be uncomfortable at "-7". The bass here with BEQ was a lot of fun. I think a lot of sequences in this are demo-able. At one point, I noticed very slow sweep down in the infrasonic range. Very subtle, but very effective for the scene it was in. I also noticed some nice ULF ambiance (wind) in the some of the desert scenes. Perhaps this was just "noise" picked up by the mic, but it fit the picture very well. In fact, nothing sounded out of place with the BEQ. I think about the people on AVSForum who argue that extra extension is worthless because "the director didn't hear it that low" on the stage. True enough, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a great track with full extension. I'd argue that I heard it the way the director would have wanted it to be heard, if he/she had known better. Big thanks again to JSS for putting this together. I have to say that I've enjoyed the ULF in BEQ films more than in just about any of the naturally extended films I've watched. Your work is high quality.
  39. 1 point
    Yeah, I got one shipped over by Dave. The VAT was harsh, but it was worth it haha!
  40. 1 point
    Just noticed that. I definitely liked the link directly to the main site!
  41. 1 point
    I don't think it's fair to characterise those threads as maximum vibration chasing. Obviously there are some people who do that, just as there are people who chase extreme SPL, but mostly it's about finding out how it responds & what feels right/good. There seems a lot of variation on that point, or more specifically, the way people describe what they like seems to vary a lot. It's all about balance in the end.
  42. 1 point
    I quoted the parts I agree with most. The first paragraph is the same type of thing I have been thinking about the trend of maximum vibration chasing. I don't doubt that having a good FR, lots of SPL AND vibration, are all important aspects to consider. Some of what seems to be being suggested in those threads (That you mentioned) seems like very bad advice to me. I remember someone suggested using smaller vents to increase their particle velocity. With the amount of boost you are using Hulk will be a difficult load on your amps and drivers for sure. The cop car punch is a short but tough signal. I think a 7 or 8Hz fundamental is about right. Without tactile vibration to help transfer the <12-15Hz content it is barely there in my experience. Below 10Hz it's pretty uneventful without a major structural vibration to go with it. It makes all the difference. 32hz at 115dB is very apparent, you feel it and it is loud. 16Hz at 115dB is much less obvious but with that kind of level you can sort of hear it and still feel it. Somewhere around 12-13Hz for me it becomes hard to hear much of anything anymore unless it is strong as hell and even then it's just an odd modulation on everything else. Pressure waves like a rapid on/off switch on the ears. I've heard 12-13Hz at 115dB or so outdoors with test tones and it was subtle. It was like the rest of the background sounds I was hearing were coming from behind a fan. My current HT room is very solid. I get a ton of gain and SPL but very little shake other than from the ceiling. The single digit stuff is an occasional odd pressure sensation if it is very loud and not masked by other content and that's about it. I don't think I would miss much in my room if I only got down to the 10-15Hz range. I expected that you would have a ton of vibration near your notch in the teens. I'm surprised that you don't show more. If the energy isn't being exchanged there where is it going? That should be too low of a frequency for it to be a null induced by the room dimensions.
  43. 1 point
    Available by July 15th! Man18 DIY subwoofer kits. http://www.harbottleaudio.com/ We are also searching for any interest in a group buy for the UH21v1 w/2.4kW x1M3 plate amp. Please fill out the form below to voice your enthusiasm for this offer! http://www.harbottleaudio.com/special-offers.html
  44. 1 point
    Yup, soundbars do have their place. That place is "Not in my systems". One can only compromise so far. We only had to destroy one set of "small" speakers to understand that a typical set of small speakers just won't survive in our home.
  45. 1 point
    This statement sums you up perfectly, and is probably why you find so much contention on countless boards. In this hobby, subjective preference is everything. Neither you nor anyone else can tell someone what they should like in their system.
  46. 1 point
    If we had MUCH better efficiency we wouldn't need exotic cooling methods.
  47. 1 point
    Focusworks GUJ21v1 is now available. There are a couple of drivers in stock ready for delivery. These were used for testing by DB and Focusworks. Data-Bass test results should be coming along soon as well.
  48. 1 point
    For the SP2-12000 testing, a fluorescent light near my work bench was flickering, so I wonder if I had some voltage drop. I was expecting the 12k to hold full power for closer to 4 seconds, but maybe my 240v 30A circuit is holding it back? Also, just in case I wasn't very clear, that's with both channels running equally but I'm only measuring the voltage off a single channel. So all in all that amp was outputting a total of 12,000w RMS for 2.5 seconds, which is really close to factory specs. That also means for 2.5 seconds the power supplies were outputting over 110A combined! For the last 4.5 seconds they were outputting over 70A, and I'm sure well before that point the capacitors were completely drained.
  49. 1 point
    The wrap up. Looking at the data as a whole the K20 does have a higher short term output capability and also long term into higher impedance loads. The SP2-12000 is certainly no slouch either and closes the gap at low impedance loads and with high duty cycle signals into extreme low frequencies. Based on the power ratings the results are pretty much as expected. Both of these amplifiers are monsters and offer among the highest potential output on the market with the capability to drive multiple of the heaviest duty drivers or bass cabinets to their limits. The K20-DSP-Aesop certainly offers more bells and whistles with a huge variety of settings, on board DSP, remote control and monitoring, networking, AES digital inputs, cable compensation, universal power supply, etc. Most of which would not be used in most cases unless you are running them as part of a huge networked system in a stadium or something. The SP2-12000 is more straight forward and offers comparable amounts of power. The SP2-12000 feels a bit lighter and is physically a little smaller. The K20 is a single rack space but it is a very deep amplifier requiring a deep rack. The SP2-12000 is 2 rack spaces but is a much shorter case so the overall effect is that it feels smaller despite being 2 rack spaces. The SP2-12000 is also much quieter. The K20's fans always run and while they are not as loud as some other amplifiers they are audible in a quiet home setting. The SP2-12000's fans don't even seem to run most of the time and didn't even turn on until asked to produce very large amounts of power for an extended time. That being the case it is virtually silent which is awesome for a quieter home or studio setting. It also ran cooler. It produces barely any heat until really loaded down for an extended period at which point it got barely warm. The K20 idles with a bit of warmth after being on for a while and will warm up a bit after being used heavily. It has never gotten what I'd call hot by any means but it does run a little warmer than the SP2-12000. The SP2-12000 also has a little less roll off below 10Hz for the ultra low frequency fanatics. The Powersoft is designed and manufactured in the EU while the SP2-12000 is a North American design and manufacture. The SP2-12000 is also much cheaper than the K20. Even if you get an extremely good deal on the K20 or K10 series like I did and you eschew all of the extra DSP or AESOP options they are still notably more expensive than the SP2-12000 on average. Both of these amps tolerated all of the abuse with ease and are obviously well protected and designed such that you will really have to do something stupid to blow one up. I mean if running them way into clipping below 10Hz multiple times with sine waves won't do it it's going to take something really extreme. Both are absolute mules and I would proudly own either. A final word for owners of Class-D amplifiers. I always tried to run my amps bridged due to the advantages I've read about but after the clear data and first hand behavioral differences I noted with the K20 when running full bridged versus not, I am truly a believer. If you own a Class D based amplifier that has the ability to be bridged that pretty much means that it is half bridged when not running in bridged mode and you could be severely limiting the amplifiers performance for bass duties. If you want the best performance possible from the amplifier for driving subwoofers you need to bridge your amplifier. This is especially true if you are driving a sealed or IB bass system and running it unfiltered on the bottom for the most extension possible. The extreme low frequencies combined with high current demand seem to be especially problematic. The K20 seemed to be alright at 20Hz and above with the loadings used here even when unbridged, but who knows how other amplifiers may behave, so I'd advise against taking the chance with diminished head room and instability in the low bass range and just go straight to bridged mode.
  50. 1 point
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