Madaeel Posted November 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 Dang. Was hoping it was something simple... It's doing that with your mic level all the way down too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 Well, I think I got it. The only setting I ended up having to change was this from 24-bit to 16-bit: With the the bass peaking at only ~95db (wife is home) and at my normal 10-12db hot, here's what the EOT scene looks like: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted November 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 Huh. Mine is at 24 but that looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 Nice! You'll have to turn on the mains to get the whole effect, I guess. Then play with the mic level setting in Windows untill it matches the digital intensity (your waveform graph on the right looks like input level is too low, use that graph to equalize the sig strength). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 Nice! You'll have to turn on the mains to get the whole effect, I guess. Then play with the mic level setting in Windows untill it matches the digital intensity (your waveform graph on the right looks like input level is too low, use that graph to equalize the sig strength). The levels for 15-30hz should be peaking at 115db for this scene to be at "reference"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 Not necessarily. Potential is over >120dB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 The 10Hz tone is the hottest one, so if a HPF is in place, you should not see >120dB. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted November 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 Hey Dave I just bought Xmen and Pompeii. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Nice! You'll have to turn on the mains to get the whole effect, I guess. Then play with the mic level setting in Windows untill it matches the digital intensity (your waveform graph on the right looks like input level is too low, use that graph to equalize the sig strength). I did some tweaking to the EQ. I brought 25hz down a tad, and bumped up sub 20hz a few DB. I also brought down that bump at 50hz a tad, but not too much 15hz is down from 20hz by only ~1.5db now, so a little flatter than before. Here are the levels I ran the system at before I ran SL, and the mains are on now: I think this shows a couple things about the system: 1. The bass is hotter than it should be, but hey, that's what I like 2. The mid-bass on my little SEOS-10 speakers is weak (SEOS-24 w/ dual AE 18s already being built, so this will be addressed) All in all, not bad for a "SPL rig" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted November 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Not bad at all. However, I would appreciate if you start a new thread for your subs and measurements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Not bad at all. However, I would appreciate if you start a new thread for your subs and measurements. lol, you can blame MK for bringing me in here and getting me all fired up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Hey B, Yeah, Paul mentioned the GTG last week and we decided then that we'd just have to wait til the last sec and see if we could shoot up there. I'd love to be there but it really has been a bear of a week for us here. If we do, we'll def bring the necessary hardware to make it a fun time. If we miss it, please come back here and post a thread with pics and vids??? Well, I don't have the time right now to post my personal impressions and the pics were severely lacking compared to last time, but I will certainly get what I can up in the coming days. The good news though Dave, for those that showed up this time uninitiated, I made some more TRUE believers in full bandwidth reproduction. You think the 8 sealed gave a nice run with the content you liked, wait to you get back by and hear it with the two additional HST's pounding you right in the back from the nearfield "Undertaker" sub Sorry you guys didn't make it, but when I get that a14K and seqss rig in the next couple of months, youll certainly have to come up and install it for me, since uh, I don't know what I am doing and all :D Bosso, haven't you heard? LOUDAH IS BETTAH!!! I recently made the mistake of posting on AVS, and I was immediately reminded as to why I don't post there anymore, except to follow PI's sealed sub build....can't remember who it was, but they were stating that they always watch at +10dBRef minimum, with +10dB subwoofer trim on top of that, minimum. That would mean 148dB theoretical peaks, and I'm not sure anyone's theater is that capable, but who knows... As a super-system-test, I am still working on a test disc that includes tonebursts down to 1.5Hz, all channels driven in 7.1 at 0dBFs. It is a true test of any system's headroom and freq response. More on that later. JSS That would be Sergio, or fatshaft. Yea, that is one I just don't get. I know I like it loud at times but, watching EVERYTHING at +10 ref seems way, WAY off to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted November 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 lol, you can blame MK for bringing me in here and getting me all fired up Yah I know. I don't blame you since I woulda said something too, but I actually forgot it was my thread for the Raptors so I knew I had to say something haha. I am interested in the info and topic(s) but they should be in another thread. No worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKtheater Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Sorry guys, at least I learned something about spec lab which I have not fired up for a while. Now I want to for EOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vxds11 Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Luke, you should start a SpecLab thread with your settings so they can possibly be emulated. That would be too cool fo' school... or is there one already for windows people? *apologies A-block for the thread jackness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Hey Brandon, I'll look forward to your post re the GTG. You're a superb host and Paul & I still talk about the great time we had. We have drivers on the water and we're planning to scoot to Panama beginning of December and when we get back, we'll be putting Raptors together and shipping them out, and........ we have Adam coming tomorrow for a couple of days of soundtrack scenes the way I've been enjoying them for 10 years, some excellent eats and maybe a glass or 2. So, it's been a busy time here. After the dust settles, Paul & I will head up there with an A14K and a Marchand Bassis to dial in a couple of curves that are specific to your rig. I guarantee it will make you an A-14K fan. Then you can see if you can persuade Paul to build you a custom SEQSS. I still don't know how he did it but the MKII SEQSS is everything he said it would be and does not use the L/T formula. He calls it a state-variable negative feedback circuit. It's dead quiet, precise, zero roll off, has more shaping options than the Linkwitz Transform for designing a no-compromise curve, irrespective of the naked response and the case has a vented top which gives the rack a cool looking red glow from the cap-discharging LEDs (for longer component life) lit up inside while it's on. Very cool. Finished testing it in time for Adam's arrival and I'm a bit stoked about it. When he started working on it a while back I said NO! The SEQSS is perfect as-is. Now I'm glad he doesn't listen to me. Larry asked me to do the ULF/no ULF with a scene in Star Trek that has largely gone under the radar because of it's mostly ULF content. That will bee first-up in the listening festivities. I actually can't wait 'til Jazzy gets her Blackbird "Minka" set up in the living room. It should go perfectly with the decor and handily outgun the ED sub that it's replacing. Paul has gone over it personally with a fine-toothed comb because we want her to be happy. It's the least we can do for the incredible hospitality and the generosity in the cool gift she handed over just because I thought it was "cool". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 James and Luke, It was my fault. My sealed vs ported rant prompted James, he posted his thought, Luke corrected him on the 30 Hz thing and I took it from there because Luke's a cool person to discuss such things with and the subject is interesting. I have always enjoyed every post from both of you guys and James is the Ambassador of Sub-Talk, IMHO. I did an animation of the latest SL and have a few Qs on the last post so, please do start a thread in this forum and I'll post the info. Sorry, Adam. I got a bit carried away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominguez1 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 For me, the room being in a basement on a concrete slab changes everything. I used to have four 5400's in sealed cabinets, and even though my room had something like a 14db drop from 14hz to 13hz, I could still hit 110db+ at 10hz. The problem is that anything 15hz and under just didn't do anything. Nothing audible, nothing tactile, just a whole lot of nothing. Some minor rattling here and there from the house, but really that's about it. Even with my system now, during that EOT scene where I'm at 130db at 15hz, it really doesn't do much. The 45hz and 75hz tones that play along with it completely drown it out. I didn't even notice it until I turned the Othorns off! I guarantee you, that if my HT was on a wood floor and not in a basement on concrete, I'd have 16 or even 32 sealed 18's by now. So Dave, if 15hz and under did literally nothing in terms of anything your senses could perceive, no matter how loud it was, would you really care about it? I've been asked and told this many, many times over the years in many different wordings from different angles that all mean the same thing. My answer is that it is virtually an impossibility that it will do nothing to my senses. After all of the comments regarding basement HTs on concrete slabs, I was beginning to buy it based on the weight of the comments. When Paul and I went to Brandon's GTG (an almost completely underground basement on a concrete slab) and set up speclab so that you could see what your senses were perceiving in real time as the graph scrolled, there occurred an interesting phenomenon: Every time a an effect played with strong <15 Hz content, the GTG attendees ran to the front of the room to crane their necks to see the computer monitor, asking "Whoa, that felt low... what frequency was that?". When we set up Adam's system, a basement HT with double sheetrock, green glue, 400# sealed doors on a concrete slab, I wondered again if Adam would just shrug and say that <20 Hz is nothing. He's already commented on that and he calls me every time he plays another movie through the system for the first time to relate the experience. Put it this way: if I was in such a listening space and full bandwidth was the claim and the soundtrack clips we're used to were played and I felt zero difference, I would park my ass in that room with gear to examine why that was the case because it would be the exception to the rule. Hey Luke I'm curious you say even at 130db at 15hz you feel nothing in you room. I understand the concrete floor not moving under you but I guess where I'm confused is that you are implying your couch, or whatever you're sitting on, isn't moving either correct? I only ask cuz obviously I know you're not the only one to go ported to feel the bass more and I'm starting to wonder why that is. Rob and others have said nothing below 10hz does anything for them either. I just am not sure how frequencies above 15hz are giving you the tactile sensation while anything below isn't? Especially if you're hitting 130db. That would make my entire house crumble. My room isn't anything special. If I'm standing in the room I don't feel the bass like I do on my first floor which is suspended. When I sit down on the couch though it feels like I have shakers on the couch. Whether or not some of that is transferred from the floor or not idk. I'm guessing not much. However, the waves of bass from the subs literally move the couch. When we were playing '9' over and over Paul was standing behind the couch and it vibrated so hard it scared him. It was f'n hilarious haha. I'm just really curious why others are not getting the same effect from their couches, chairs, etc? I mean even in a room with a suspended floor you get the shake from both the floor vibrating and the bass waves going through the room and furniture. Maybe I have a cheap ass couch. I would love to hear your system in your room and mine. Well as long as I didn't have to help move them. There are some folks that are simply more sensitive to <10Hz. I have a very paltry system compared to most of the infrasonic systems out there (Eight RefHF 15" Drivers), and I can easily tell when 5Hz tonebursts are being played above around 108dB (I am on a slab in a basement, with three 1/2 walls of concrete as well). Nothing moves, but I can feel the room pressurize. Not as much with 3Hz and 1.5Hz tonebursts, but I run into signal chain rolloff at that point. The cones move at 1.5Hz, but no real sensation is evident. At 3Hz there is sensation, a 'feeling', but no movement of couch, walls, etc. At 5Hz, definitely felt, eerie feeling, just a little tactile sensation (4 of the drivers fire into the back of the MLP). 8Hz is moving things about, and definitively 'there'. 10Hz is much the same, just louder, with more wall and furniture movement. 10-15Hz is violent, much more tactile. Above 15Hz you are reaching resonances of some of my walls, and you can hear things creak, and you are reaching the resonances of the couch at 16Hz. The perceived volume climbs immensely. I have never pushed beyond 118dB on any of these tonebursts, as I do not necessarily want to know when the RefHFs have hit their limits and parts clang. That puts me at around -10dBRef capable for the worst possible ULF scenario encoded on a disc in 7.1, or around -6dBRef to -5dBRef capable for nearly all films, but some films are starting to push the envelope of 7.1's capabilities. I need to make a wedge micrometer to see how much excursion I am really seeing, as it looks to be impressive for the Dayton's rated excursion capabilities. EoT's 10Hz intro was only encoded Center and LFE, making for a ~120dB sustained tone if played back at reference. If the rest of the channels were to be included, it would have topped out at 128dB. JSS Different couches definitely have different resonant frequencies. My old couch I have on the front row, it resonates with anything below 25hz. It really feels like there are bass shakers it resonates so much, and it really adds to the ULF experience. However, my other couch, that’s on the back row on a riser, does nothing. This was actually really disappointing to me when I got it that it didn’t have the same affect. That’s also why I put it on the back row, as maybe with it on the wood riser I’d get more “feel” from it. I also think I’ve de-sensitized myself somewhat to the “pressurization” effect from ULF content. I remember with my first DIY sub, a 5400 with dual passive radiators tuned to 17hz, that on the Bass I Love You track, it felt like I was under water there was so much pressure being generated in the room. I’d demo that for people and they’d just start laughing because it was so over the top at the time. Now, I don’t really feel that anymore. When I give demos to others, I see them react to the 15hz stuff and they’ll talk about the massive pressure in their ears, but somehow I’ve lost it. Did someone mention ULF? Love this topic. IME, ULF adds a tremendous amount of impact and tactile feel when you either have seating, floor, or a riser that also has a ULF resonant frequency. How would you know this? Easy, if those objects feel like their possessed, than they have a resonant ULF frequency that energizes that object. Without a ULF resonant frequency, the overall experience is probably just ok (compared to one with a resonant frequency). Take the vibrating couch/floor/riser away, and it's still a cool experience because you feel a weight, pressure, and eerie feeling...you can also feel that pressure wave as well. But having a ULF resonant frequency with an object that you're connected with, takes the cake IMO. For those on slabs, you've experienced ULF without your seating or riser vibrating I'm sure...during these big ULF scenes, just stand up and don't put yourself in contact with those objects. You'll perceive the pressure and weight a lot more because your senses aren't being bombarded with an energized couch or riser, but the experience when your in contact with those objects is much better IMO. I actually measured my couch to determine what my resonant frequency was. I played sine waves, and used an Android app (Vibration Meter) and measured the results: You can see that from 11 to 21hz or so, my couch gets very energized. Below 10hz, my couch doesn't do much, however I do appreciate the weight and pressure associated with it below 10. However, it's nothing like the experience I get from 11-20hz. I'm guessing others that don't have ULF resonant frequency floor/couch/riser (like luke or not), don't put a whole lot of stock into it because comparitively speaking, 15hz and up is much more tactile. Also, it's not spec lab, but I did record this video of the final fight scene with Hulk and Abomination with the omnimic. Talk about ULF! At one point in the clip, it looked like a ski slope with 5hz being the highest, sloping way down to 200hz! (The top of the omnimic is 130db). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 I'm guessing others that don't have ULF resonant frequency floor/couch/riser (like luke or not), don't put a whole lot of stock into it because comparitively speaking, 15hz and up is much more tactile. Also, it's not spec lab, but I did record this video of the final fight scene with Hulk and Abomination with the omnimic. Talk about ULF! At one point in the clip, it looked like a ski slope with 5hz being the highest, sloping way down to 200hz! (The top of the omnimic is 130db). http://youtu.be/fL-N0PQVwas fL-N0PQVwas Hey Dom!!!, Great to see ya. If I didn't have a resonance, I'd build one. I remember folloogggoo, or however you spell the SN of the young fella from Germany, built his HT in a basement on a slab and he built a riser and measured it's reaction to ULF pressure waves. He discussed the difference with a sealed base vs open base on the riser, etc. That's def what I plan to do in my next home, which will be all concrete, floor, walls and ceiling, with a 2 tier riser designed to interface well with <20 Hz. I'm so glad you posted that YT! I remember a while back having a discussion with an AVS member who insisted that SL over emphasized <10 Hz because it's linear and our FR are logarithmic. You know, if you run a log sweep through SL it's more intense in color at the bottom frequency and drops in intensity by -9dB or so by 120 Hz. I maintained that he was just not interpreting the data properly. SL shows what you input. And, REW sweeps are linear from 1-10 Hz, then from 10 Hz up they are logarithmic. To cut to the quick, your vid, not a speclab program, shows that the intensity is equal or louder at the bottom. I've done the same experiment with TrueRTA, but it only went down to 10 Hz. In any case, My frame floor is approximately 24' x 27' and its resonant freq is 6.8 Hz and it's gonna be movin' with the Hulk vs Abomination fight tomorrow night.... epic battle, maximum wow factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominguez1 Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Thanks Bosso! Forgot to mention this before, if you fast forward to around 1:22, that's when the 5-10hz is the highest for about 20 seconds or so...it fluctuates between 110-115db for that time period and frequency. FYI, every time Larry and I talk or get together, I'm always talking about your Raptors...they are like works of art; literally. Love everything about them...I was just talking with Larry the other day, "Hey Larry, why don't you and I split a Raptor system? You can have the A14 and SEQSS, and I'll take a pair just to place them in my room to look at!" Madeel, definitely jealous of your setup! If I had I started from scratch, I had a quad set of those raptors for sure... Back to the Hulk...Larry tells me about his trip to your place a lot... I've got to get there sometime. I can't imagine the Hulk on a suspended floor tuned to 6.8hz...gotta be awesome. Of all movies to date, TIH is still my favorite. If I come though, just be sure to have no raptors for sale at your house...I won't be able to overcome the temptation me thinks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Hey Brandon, I'll look forward to your post re the GTG. You're a superb host and Paul & I still talk about the great time we had. We have drivers on the water and we're planning to scoot to Panama beginning of December and when we get back, we'll be putting Raptors together and shipping them out, and........ we have Adam coming tomorrow for a couple of days of soundtrack scenes the way I've been enjoying them for 10 years, some excellent eats and maybe a glass or 2. So, it's been a busy time here. After the dust settles, Paul & I will head up there with an A14K and a Marchand Bassis to dial in a couple of curves that are specific to your rig. I guarantee it will make you an A-14K fan. Then you can see if you can persuade Paul to build you a custom SEQSS. I still don't know how he did it but the MKII SEQSS is everything he said it would be and does not use the L/T formula. He calls it a state-variable negative feedback circuit. It's dead quiet, precise, zero roll off, has more shaping options than the Linkwitz Transform for designing a no-compromise curve, irrespective of the naked response and the case has a vented top which gives the rack a cool looking red glow from the cap-discharging LEDs (for longer component life) lit up inside while it's on. Very cool. Finished testing it in time for Adam's arrival and I'm a bit stoked about it. When he started working on it a while back I said NO! The SEQSS is perfect as-is. Now I'm glad he doesn't listen to me. Larry asked me to do the ULF/no ULF with a scene in Star Trek that has largely gone under the radar because of it's mostly ULF content. That will bee first-up in the listening festivities. I actually can't wait 'til Jazzy gets her Blackbird "Minka" set up in the living room. It should go perfectly with the decor and handily outgun the ED sub that it's replacing. Paul has gone over it personally with a fine-toothed comb because we want her to be happy. It's the least we can do for the incredible hospitality and the generosity in the cool gift she handed over just because I thought it was "cool". Man, I just saw this Dave and I showed Jazzy and she said her heart melted and that ain't easy to do to her. She loved having you guys at the house and absolutely adores you and Paul and that bitch don't like anyone. Really she loves you two. (ALL her words not mine) I *cannot* wait to come down and see the Minka and I know she will love it. She is gonna freak out when I hook it up. Pics will be ensuing. Man a new SEQSS?? Paul is a beast. Thanks Bosso! Forgot to mention this before, if you fast forward to around 1:22, that's when the 5-10hz is the highest for about 20 seconds or so...it fluctuates between 110-115db for that time period and frequency. FYI, every time Larry and I talk or get together, I'm always talking about your Raptors...they are like works of art; literally. Love everything about them...I was just talking with Larry the other day, "Hey Larry, why don't you and I split a Raptor system? You can have the A14 and SEQSS, and I'll take a pair just to place them in my room to look at!" Madeel, definitely jealous of your setup! If I had I started from scratch, I had a quad set of those raptors for sure... Back to the Hulk...Larry tells me about his trip to your place a lot... I've got to get there sometime. I can't imagine the Hulk on a suspended floor tuned to 6.8hz...gotta be awesome. Of all movies to date, TIH is still my favorite. If I come though, just be sure to have no raptors for sale at your house...I won't be able to overcome the temptation me thinks.... Dom! Glad to see you over here man. Good post on the ULF. I need to find the resonant frequency of my couch but that thing shakes like hell on anything I play. Yes TIH is my favorite demo. Hulk vs Abomination is probably the best audio demo yet. So many single digit hits and it sounds and feels amazing on the Raptors. Should be amazing on Dave's floor. No you will not be able to resist the Raptors in person. Jazzy thought they were more than what I paid because even someone who knows nothing about the costs involved in a sub KNEW these were something special. I wish I didn't have a blacked out room sometimes so you could see the Raptors detail more. In person they are simply stunning. Kinda makes me wish I had a massive living room to put them in the proper light, but I think I can live with that gorgeous "Minka". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted November 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Fellas don't worry about the off topic convo. It happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 All this ULF/TIH talk reminds me...I have yet to see TIH with the new system...the chase with the tranq guns, the brazilian factory, the sonic cannons, and the police-car boxing gloves are tough to beat. For those without resonant floors/risers, crowsons are probably the next best thing, signal chain permitting. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Larry stopped by to pick something up from me a few weeks after stopping by Dave's and hearing his system. We got to talking about tactile differences and how much it helps with perception of ULF. I let him hear my system play some scenes from TIH at reference with the subs flat. He could maybe tell you some more of the difference between the two but in short my system lacks the tactile feel Daves has from being on concrete. My system is solid down to 5Hz and I have a semi near field sub which is no joke too but my floor and couch refuse to move much. It makes a huge difference to me. Upstairs is a different story. Things are dancing across the floor and falling off of the walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemX Posted November 7, 2014 Report Share Posted November 7, 2014 Upstairs is a different story. Things are dancing across the floor and falling off of the walls. Nice, that's when it's more fun lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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