Bossobass Mini GTG Thread

[Bossobass Dave]

"My answer is that it is virtually an impossibility that it will do nothing to my senses."

 

So my experiences were somehow an impossible scenario, or I'm lying, or what?  

 

People like what they like, and I'm obviously no exception, but I'm not going to justify my subjective preference in the name of "accuracy".  I don't buy that angle for second.    

 

It's not about you. No one cares what you or anyone else personally likes. The fact that they may pretend to care makes some of you happy and I'm glad for you. But...

 

I really, really, really wish you guys who take this shit personally, but love to talk about what you personally like as though everyone else needs to like it too, would start a forum along those lines where you all could gather regularly and argue about subjective baloney.

 

There, I said it.

 

Oh, but there already are lots of forums like that. Lots of fun, those.

 

This is Data_Bass, not What-I-Think_Bass. That sort of nonsense will always boil down to who shouts his opinion the loudest, the tactic Tom Vodhanel got away with for years while pounding out mediocre product. My career on the various forums was, as I've mentioned a billion or so times, populated by and influenced through correspondence with, Noussaine, Linkwitz, Wiggins, Seaton, Rissanen, Mullen, Ding, Marchand, Hsu, et, al.

 

If you posted some subjective baloney about what you personally like vs the facts of the matter in that environment, you would be summarily dismissed, in no uncertain terms, or, you would have to offer the opinion in the context of actual data... the facts of the matter.

 

Duh.

 

I never thought I'd see the day where the actual facts and data would be held in contempt by people who Prefer Other.

 

I want full bandwidth low end. There are currently only two ways to achieve that. A Hybrid TRW/sealed system, or a sealed system. Whether or not you like it or prefer headphones is irrelevant to the facts of the matter.

 

You post as though it's a fact that if I were in a basement in silence and someone suddenly turned on a 5 Hz sine tone at 105dB I would somehow be oblivious to that fact because the floor wouldn't react. That's just an insult to my intelligence, senses and experience. You (meaning the collective 'you', as your opinion here is not unique) think it's cool to burst into my thread and confront me with that sort of bullshit and get the hospitable host Dave to appear and agree that accuracy is irrelevant to what one may prefer.

 

Hear that, Josh? You can stop the measurements nonsense now. Just post what the sub 'hits' on the SPL meter and change the bottom of your sweeps to 15 Hz, or is it 14 Hz... 18 Hz... well, you'll have to start a poll on that.

 

You guys have enough threads to be more than happy, IMO. Why the desperate need to convert me? You stated your opinion a dozen times. I'm not slow. I got it. Happy listening.

[MiniHT]

Awesome stuff, as usual. Is that the same perforated leather I see in the background that is used on the Raptor's?  Slick stuff, man.  I really like the lighting in those shots.. Your son Tim can shoot!  Awesome performance as well.. looks like I need to pick up JA.

[Bossobass Dave]

Awesome stuff, as usual. Is that the same perforated leather I see in the background that is used on the Raptor's?  Slick stuff, man.  I really like the lighting in those shots.. Your son Tim can shoot!  Awesome performance as well.. looks like I need to pick up JA.

 

Thanks for the compliments. Props to Nick, which is why we here all went to the mat to show what his drivers can do. He's really a great guy and asset to the art.

 

Stay tuned for more details. I just had to post what I've posted because the material was piling up and it's hard to remember all those details for a later date release of them. Paul's measurements are worth the read, and more details on the performance, which should be a help to everyone designing a sub or looking to buy one.

 

IMO, everyone should have JA in his library. It's got the goods and there's lots of it. I'm also interested to get reactions and discussion about those big 25.5 Hz hits. They're intense and difficult to reproduce, especially with the spread of content going all the way down as they do in places.

[lukeamdman]

It's not about you. No one cares what you or anyone else personally likes. The fact that they may pretend to care makes some of you happy and I'm glad for you. But...

 

I really, really, really wish you guys who take this shit personally, but love to talk about what you personally like as though everyone else needs to like it too, would start a forum along those lines where you all could gather regularly and argue about subjective baloney.

 

There, I said it.

 

Oh, but there already are lots of forums like that. Lots of fun, those.

 

This is Data_Bass, not What-I-Think_Bass. That sort of nonsense will always boil down to who shouts his opinion the loudest, the tactic Tom Vodhanel got away with for years while pounding out mediocre product. My career on the various forums was, as I've mentioned a billion or so times, populated by and influenced through correspondence with, Noussaine, Linkwitz, Wiggins, Seaton, Rissanen, Mullen, Ding, Marchand, Hsu, et, al.

 

If you posted some subjective baloney about what you personally like vs the facts of the matter in that environment, you would be summarily dismissed, in no uncertain terms, or, you would have to offer the opinion in the context of actual data... the facts of the matter.

 

Duh.

 

I never thought I'd see the day where the actual facts and data would be held in contempt by people who Prefer Other.

 

I want full bandwidth low end. There are currently only two ways to achieve that. A Hybrid TRW/sealed system, or a sealed system. Whether or not you like it or prefer headphones is irrelevant to the facts of the matter.

 

You post as though it's a fact that if I were in a basement in silence and someone suddenly turned on a 5 Hz sine tone at 105dB I would somehow be oblivious to that fact because the floor wouldn't react. That's just an insult to my intelligence, senses and experience. You (meaning the collective 'you', as your opinion here is not unique) think it's cool to burst into my thread and confront me with that sort of bullshit and get the hospitable host Dave to appear and agree that accuracy is irrelevant to what one may prefer.

 

Hear that, Josh? You can stop the measurements nonsense now. Just post what the sub 'hits' on the SPL meter and change the bottom of your sweeps to 15 Hz, or is it 14 Hz... 18 Hz... well, you'll have to start a poll on that.

 

You guys have enough threads to be more than happy, IMO. Why the desperate need to convert me? You stated your opinion a dozen times. I'm not slow. I got it. Happy listening.

 

Well, you're actually stating some things from a subjective standpoint for a change.  We're making progress.  

 

"You post as though it's a fact that if I were in a basement in silence and someone suddenly turned on a 5 Hz sine tone at 105dB I would somehow be oblivious to that fact because the floor wouldn't react. That's just an insult to my intelligence, senses and experience. You (meaning the collective 'you', as your opinion here is not unique) think it's cool to burst into my thread and confront me with that sort of bullshit and get the hospitable host Dave to appear and agree that accuracy is irrelevant to what one may prefer."

 

This is something that should be tested.  Perhaps you'd notice, perhaps you wouldn't.  Have you never tried this, and if not, how can you be so 100% confident and sure?

 

That's most of the point I was making about your personality on the boards.  In person, we could (and DID!!!!!) actually have a conversation about this.  On the boards, "That's just an insult to my intelligence, senses and experience."

 

I'm not telling you what you should like, and I never have to you or anyone else here or on AVS.  I think you state many things as simple fact when there are setups, scenarios, and room conditions you might have not experienced yet.  If you're taking the stance that you've already been there and done everything pertaining to bass reproduction and the influence the room has on it you're mistaken.  No one can make that claim no matter how long they've been in the business.

[MKtheater]

JP was great, that big hit is very cool and I can tell instantly it is full bandwidth due to the pressure of the room. A big hit in avengers or Pacific rim does not pressurize my room although the bass shakes the chairs. They are very different feels in the room. It is just nice to know I am not missing much but under 3Hz in my room. Again I understand why people do what they do but my point is is does not cost much to make sure ULF or ELF air whatever is noticed. Dave is lucky he has a floor that shakes at 7hz but other things are happening as well. To me bass is just not shaking my chairs lol!

[Infrasonic]

It's not about you. No one cares what you or anyone else personally likes. The fact that they may pretend to care makes some of you happy and I'm glad for you. But...

 

I really, really, really wish you guys who take this shit personally, but love to talk about what you personally like as though everyone else needs to like it too, would start a forum along those lines where you all could gather regularly and argue about subjective baloney.

 

There, I said it.

 

Oh, but there already are lots of forums like that. Lots of fun, those.

 

This is Data_Bass, not What-I-Think_Bass. That sort of nonsense will always boil down to who shouts his opinion the loudest, the tactic Tom Vodhanel got away with for years while pounding out mediocre product. My career on the various forums was, as I've mentioned a billion or so times, populated by and influenced through correspondence with, Noussaine, Linkwitz, Wiggins, Seaton, Rissanen, Mullen, Ding, Marchand, Hsu, et, al.

 

If you posted some subjective baloney about what you personally like vs the facts of the matter in that environment, you would be summarily dismissed, in no uncertain terms, or, you would have to offer the opinion in the context of actual data... the facts of the matter.

 

Duh.

 

I never thought I'd see the day where the actual facts and data would be held in contempt by people who Prefer Other.

 

I want full bandwidth low end. There are currently only two ways to achieve that. A Hybrid TRW/sealed system, or a sealed system. Whether or not you like it or prefer headphones is irrelevant to the facts of the matter.

 

You post as though it's a fact that if I were in a basement in silence and someone suddenly turned on a 5 Hz sine tone at 105dB I would somehow be oblivious to that fact because the floor wouldn't react. That's just an insult to my intelligence, senses and experience. You (meaning the collective 'you', as your opinion here is not unique) think it's cool to burst into my thread and confront me with that sort of bullshit and get the hospitable host Dave to appear and agree that accuracy is irrelevant to what one may prefer.

 

Hear that, Josh? You can stop the measurements nonsense now. Just post what the sub 'hits' on the SPL meter and change the bottom of your sweeps to 15 Hz, or is it 14 Hz... 18 Hz... well, you'll have to start a poll on that.

 

You guys have enough threads to be more than happy, IMO. Why the desperate need to convert me? You stated your opinion a dozen times. I'm not slow. I got it. Happy listening.

 

Damn, Dave. Didn't think you'd have the need to lose your cool about all this.

 

You know... we have all been supporting your build in here. Go read the rest of this thread maybe.

 

It was only until a couple pages back that you attacked a few of us for being "treble pussies" (thanks, bro). Then you made a comment about running your CC full range but "I'd lose all that ULF". I gave you a proper solution to use a damn dedicated subwoofer system like I have to make them truly "full range" ... "like a man". Cuz how else do you do that without bass management OR a dedicated subwoofer system? I did it and proved it. Then you attacked me for having a distorted response. Like, whatever. I'm fine with that but you completely ignored how I had a flat to 5hz (which is all I can measure to with my system) response which is what we were talking about. Why the dodge? I don't get it.

 

So of course the discussion turned the way it did. Why did you have to make the attack on a few of us in your thread? The subject turned to "distorted +15dB response" because you said yourself that you enjoyed the Raptor sub system turned up high. Nobody is trying to "convert" you. You said you enjoyed it. I'm so confused why you're mad at some of us when in your own thread you attacked our interests while we are praising your build.

 

Very odd.

 

And this is data bass. We talk about bass. It doesn't become data-less when we bump up the trim on our systems or aren't' flat to 3hz.

[BeastAudio]

Thanks for the compliments. Props to Nick, which is why we here all went to the mat to show what his drivers can do. He's really a great guy and asset to the art.

 

Stay tuned for more details. I just had to post what I've posted because the material was piling up and it's hard to remember all those details for a later date release of them. Paul's measurements are worth the read, and more details on the performance, which should be a help to everyone designing a sub or looking to buy one.

 

IMO, everyone should have JA in his library. It's got the goods and there's lots of it. I'm also interested to get reactions and discussion about those big 25.5 Hz hits. They're intense and difficult to reproduce, especially with the spread of content going all the way down as they do in places.

 

 

I have it, waiting on a functional PJ (ARGHHHH) to watch it but very much looking forward to pushing that track through the system.

 

I will simply add my opinion on one small thing. I feel the full bandwidth reproduction is still paramount, and I am glad I have it. After leaving the g2g (Which is what this thread is about right?) I came home and gave a couple spins to a few of the LOW stuff we watching. Sub trim is hot I know, but no longer 15dB since I added the LT and got the response as close to proper as I can get it. Yea, it's not closer to 6-8dB hot but I digress. It was like the room was being swept out from under me when those 5-10hz stuffs hit. I loved it. Oh and Im on slab. Luke even admitted when he was over that I had something in the low registers that he didnt. I don't have any more science to really add here. I did my work a while back on looking at my room. Doors open, doors shut, LT, No LT, etc. I'll keep trudging on enjoying content at this point.....

 

Oh and I DOUBLE the props to Nick, a huge asset and more importantly a good friend

[Electrodynamic]

Semi on-topic I purchased JA and watched it last night. In the beginning I thought "there's some deep bass but not a ton" but then the more the movie progressed so did the LFE (Low Frequency Effects). I didn't finish it all last night but I was screen capturing SpecLab info so often that I got tired of doing it and went to bed. 

 

Bad lighting in my room but here is the scene image where the ship enters much larger ship through the side. A little louder tonight as I just captured this at 8:45 PM with my son next to me:

 

 

[Bossobass Dave]

Well, you're actually stating some things from a subjective standpoint for a change.  We're making progress.  

 

"You post as though it's a fact that if I were in a basement in silence and someone suddenly turned on a 5 Hz sine tone at 105dB I would somehow be oblivious to that fact because the floor wouldn't react. That's just an insult to my intelligence, senses and experience. You (meaning the collective 'you', as your opinion here is not unique) think it's cool to burst into my thread and confront me with that sort of bullshit and get the hospitable host Dave to appear and agree that accuracy is irrelevant to what one may prefer."

 

This is something that should be tested.  Perhaps you'd notice, perhaps you wouldn't.  Have you never tried this, and if not, how can you be so 100% confident and sure?

 

That's most of the point I was making about your personality on the boards.  In person, we could (and DID!!!!!) actually have a conversation about this.  On the boards, "That's just an insult to my intelligence, senses and experience."

 

I'm not telling you what you should like, and I never have to you or anyone else here or on AVS.  I think you state many things as simple fact when there are setups, scenarios, and room conditions you might have not experienced yet.  If you're taking the stance that you've already been there and done everything pertaining to bass reproduction and the influence the room has on it you're mistaken.  No one can make that claim no matter how long they've been in the business.

 

Yep, you sure are. You're telling me that if I'm in a basement, 15 Hz is it. I say, not true. You keep saying the same thing over and over. Someone should test the theory? I have. The results were unanimous. I think you should conduct the test yourself and do whatever you decide the results tell you to do. But you should refrain from telling people that anything below 'x' Hz is moot because you say so. That's simply not true and it erodes your credibility to insist it is true.

 

James told you the same thing I told you. Why aren't you insisting he's wrong and suggesting he conduct a test of some sort to prove the obvious to himself? Of course, that would just be silly, sorry.

 

Damn, Dave. Didn't think you'd have the need to lose your cool about all this.

 

You know... we have all been supporting your build in here. Go read the rest of this thread maybe.

 

It was only until a couple pages back that you attacked a few of us for being "treble pussies" (thanks, bro). Then you made a comment about running your CC full range but "I'd lose all that ULF". I gave you a proper solution to use a damn dedicated subwoofer system like I have to make them truly "full range" ... "like a man". Cuz how else do you do that without bass management OR a dedicated subwoofer system? I did it and proved it. Then you attacked me for having a distorted response. Like, whatever. I'm fine with that but you completely ignored how I had a flat to 5hz (which is all I can measure to with my system) response which is what we were talking about. Why the dodge? I don't get it.

 

So of course the discussion turned the way it did. Why did you have to make the attack on a few of us in your thread? The subject turned to "distorted +15dB response" because you said yourself that you enjoyed the Raptor sub system turned up high. Nobody is trying to "convert" you. You said you enjoyed it. I'm so confused why you're mad at some of us when in your own thread you attacked our interests while we are praising your build.

 

Very odd.

 

And this is data bass. We talk about bass. It doesn't become data-less when we bump up the trim on our systems or aren't' flat to 3hz.

 

Scott, really... I have no idea what you're rambling on about, really I don't.

 

The Behringer amp thing? You were supporting my build with that nonsense? Then it's about your CC? Or it's about your bass management scheme? Your frequency response? Is that really what you few guys do to other's build threads and then call it support? Cool, gotcha. From now on I'll know to be more receptive to that, I promise.

 

I'll say this once more, FWIW. I think running a sub +15dB hot is asinine. It sounds bad. It sounds especially bad with the first 3 octaves filtered out. Just look at the extension ratings for the content forum and note that less stars = less good. If it sounded good, the mix would no doubt already be done that way for us. If I liked it, I would have been doing it at least a half decade ahead of the current crop.

 

Luke was a guest in my house. He was treated accordingly and I set up a system to accommodate his preference specifically and ran the subs +15dB hot, just for him. Never have before, most likely never will again. It was a good day and I had a great time. Doesn't mean I liked the audio experience, sorry. It's not an audio experience at all. It's dB drag racing. There's nothing more I have to say about the subject.

[Bossobass Dave]

I have it, waiting on a functional PJ (ARGHHHH) to watch it but very much looking forward to pushing that track through the system.

 

I will simply add my opinion on one small thing. I feel the full bandwidth reproduction is still paramount, and I am glad I have it. After leaving the g2g (Which is what this thread is about right?) I came home and gave a couple spins to a few of the LOW stuff we watching. Sub trim is hot I know, but no longer 15dB since I added the LT and got the response as close to proper as I can get it. Yea, it's not closer to 6-8dB hot but I digress. It was like the room was being swept out from under me when those 5-10hz stuffs hit. I loved it. Oh and Im on slab. Luke even admitted when he was over that I had something in the low registers that he didnt. I don't have any more science to really add here. I did my work a while back on looking at my room. Doors open, doors shut, LT, No LT, etc. I'll keep trudging on enjoying content at this point.....

 

Oh and I DOUBLE the props to Nick, a huge asset and more importantly a good friend

 

Yes, I was there, as an observer. Among my observations, I'll say this: Good thing we brought the measurement rig with SpecLab loaded. Once it was set up and running, EVERY time a ULF effect occurred, EVERYONE either ran up front to look at the laptop monitor or just yelled out "What did that hit?", meaning what frequency was the effect centered at. Every time the answer was <20 Hz. If that isn't proof enough that everyone sensed the <20 Hz stuff, then what is? Mass delusion?

[TemporalMix]

 

Thanks, Tim!! Awesome job.

 

 

Thanks!  Any time!

Damn, Tim's pretty good at taking pictures now!

Thanks, bro!

[Bossobass Dave]

Nick, that's one clip I didn't cap. Yes, there's so many in that movie. Try the scene I capped and posted back in the Raptor-SI review and LMK what you think, and cap it if you get a chance.

 

Are you still mic'ing the DO Hst-11 sub?

[Bossobass Dave]

Dave,

 

Thanks for posting all the data!  I have some questions.  Is the A-7k really 4 channel?  From the specs you posted, it looks like the A-7k can do 14kW total just like the A-14k.

 

Now about that DSP, can you find out what its internal precision is?  Lots of audio DSPs (such as MiniDSP 2x4) are 56-bit fixed point, and this works well enough for all but the lowest frequencies.  At least with the MiniDSP, the DSP precision becomes a problem once you start trying to do anything below 30 Hz or so, and it is practically unusable below 20 Hz.  A 32-bit floating point DSP is more expensive but offers a lot more usable precision at very low frequencies.  Also, does the DSP allow custom biquad input, like the MiniDSP products do?  This feature along with sufficient internal precision could allow all the signal shaping to be done in the DSP, which is a real nice option.  Lastly, will the DSP feature be available with the A-7k?

 

Sorry for the delayed scoop. I'm a Windows moron. Been on Mac for the past 15 years. I only use W for measurements, speclab, DATS and WinIsd in the HT room. I just got around to figuring out that the AMPDSP is for Windows 7-64bit and my PC is loaded with W 7-32bit. Mac OS-X has always run both from the same OS, and everything I do on the PC is formatted for 32bit so I never had any experience with the problem before. I'll fix that in the next day or two in time for Paul to get back so he'll be ready to move ahead with the amp details.

[Bossobass Dave]

JP was great, that big hit is very cool and I can tell instantly it is full bandwidth due to the pressure of the room. A big hit in avengers or Pacific rim does not pressurize my room although the bass shakes the chairs. They are very different feels in the room. It is just nice to know I am not missing much but under 3Hz in my room. Again I understand why people do what they do but my point is is does not cost much to make sure ULF or ELF air whatever is noticed. Dave is lucky he has a floor that shakes at 7hz but other things are happening as well. To me bass is just not shaking my chairs lol!

 

This ^^^ sums it up nicely. Thanks.

 

Can you cap the hit? I posted the time stamp info.

[Electrodynamic]

Nick, that's one clip I didn't cap. Yes, there's so many in that movie. Try the scene I capped and posted back in the Raptor-SI review and LMK what you think, and cap it if you get a chance.

 

Are you still mic'ing the DO Hst-11 sub?

 

Yep, I'm mic'ing the DO HST-11 sub. Here is the capture tonight at higher volume tonight. 

[pbc]

Dave or others, I'm curious.  I was thinking of changing my dual opposed AV15H setup to a vertically dual opposed setup, as in my new place I wanted to create a couple subwoofers that would "blend" in with the custom wall cabinets my wife is insisting on.  Unfortunately my view of beautiful subs (like the Raven/Raptors) is very different from her view!  Which is more or less "invisible or non-existent would best".

 

So I posted to John at AE to ask whether there would be an optimal distance between the top and bottom plates (or floor on the bottom) and the woofer.  He responded he'd keep about 3" if I was to go this route (which feels like a lot?).  

 

But outside of that, he did say woofers weren't really meant for vertical firing, as it causes immediate sag on the suspension and overtime a permanent suspension bias and possibly a slight linearity between the coils acceleration on the upward/downward stroke, and finally that biased suspension voids any warranty in the industry.  I am not concerned about warranty, as my AV15H drivers are 5-6 years old, but am just curious if this is measurable and/or if in your years you've ever had an issue with any particular drivers and this becoming an issue?  

 

I've always wondered the same myself, i.e., with the Outlaw subs and other subs that had down-firing woofers whether gravity would cause an issue over time.

[Bossobass Dave]

Dave or others, I'm curious.  I was thinking of changing my dual opposed AV15H setup to a vertically dual opposed setup, as in my new place I wanted to create a couple subwoofers that would "blend" in with the custom wall cabinets my wife is insisting on.  Unfortunately my view of beautiful subs (like the Raven/Raptors) is very different from her view!  Which is more or less "invisible or non-existent would best".

 

So I posted to John at AE to ask whether there would be an optimal distance between the top and bottom plates (or floor on the bottom) and the woofer.  He responded he'd keep about 3" if I was to go this route (which feels like a lot?).  

 

But outside of that, he did say woofers weren't really meant for vertical firing, as it causes immediate sag on the suspension and overtime a permanent suspension bias and possibly a slight linearity between the coils acceleration on the upward/downward stroke, and finally that biased suspension voids any warranty in the industry.  I am not concerned about warranty, as my AV15H drivers are 5-6 years old, but am just curious if this is measurable and/or if in your years you've ever had an issue with any particular drivers and this becoming an issue?  

 

I've always wondered the same myself, i.e., with the Outlaw subs and other subs that had down-firing woofers whether gravity would cause an issue over time.

 

John has always maintained this bias with no apparent data to back it up.

 

The majority of commercial subs ship with driver in a down firing configuration. I've used down firing and up firing config for 15 years without incident.

 

Ask John how he stores drivers on his shelves.

 

IMO, front firing sag is far more pertinent to driver non linearity/possible failure, but neither is a valid concern. In extreme cases of owners who continually push a sub to it's mechanical limits, it's orientation to vertical is not the relevant problem. Owners who keep their hardware well within it's designed operating parameters have their hardware for far longer periods of time, driver configuration notwithstanding.

 

I shipped a pair of AV15H-loaded Ravens overseas however many years ago the short-lived AV15H was available. No problems to report.

[lukeamdman]

Yep, you sure are. You're telling me that if I'm in a basement, 15 Hz is it. I say, not true. You keep saying the same thing over and over. Someone should test the theory? I have. The results were unanimous. I think you should conduct the test yourself and do whatever you decide the results tell you to do. But you should refrain from telling people that anything below 'x' Hz is moot because you say so. That's simply not true and it erodes your credibility to insist it is true.

 

That’s not at all what I’m saying.  You’re missing my point entirely.  This is all I’m saying:

 

Premise #1:  Room gain profiles will change from room to room

 

Premise #2:  Feedback from the room itself, whether it be audible feedback (such as rattles from windows/doors/walls/duct work, etc.), or “tactile” feedback (such as vibrations from the floor or even from the furniture being sat on), will change from room to room.

 

Conclusion: The perceivable effects of bass will change from room to room.

 

That being the case, my approach to HT is, which I’d like to think is fairly open minded, that measurements and testing should be done to find out which type of sub alignment is most enjoyable for the user in that specific space.  My first choice would be full bandwidth, but in some cases, the ULF effects might be only subtle enough that it may be more enjoyable for greater output capability above 15hz. 

 

That thought process erodes my credibility?  

 

I’ve gone from ported, to sealed, to ported/passive radiator, back to sealed, and now to horns.  I’m also researching and scheming with what I can do with my dang riser to get tactile feedback below 15hz.  If I can accomplish that, I may go back to sealed for the low end.

 

I simply disagree with your approach that “one solution fits all regardless of the room and if anyone disagrees they’re wrong”.  

 

 

James told you the same thing I told you. Why aren't you insisting he's wrong and suggesting he conduct a test of some sort to prove the obvious to himself? Of course, that would just be silly, sorry.

 

You have to admit that James has a unique space, and the measurements I’ve seen of his indicate nothing less than some pretty incredible room gain.  Also, his description of the pressurization of the room from ULF sounds awesome.  I have no doubt he thoroughly enjoys sub 10hz material in his room.

[MKtheater]

Dom has been to my room with the baffle wall but without the new riser and rear subs. The one thing he noticed and mentioned is that there is so much pressure.  I almost need to leave the doors open if I want to run very high spl, almost. 

[Bossobass Dave]

That’s not at all what I’m saying.  You’re missing my point entirely.  This is all I’m saying:

 

Premise #1:  Room gain profiles will change from room to room

 

Premise #2:  Feedback from the room itself, whether it be audible feedback (such as rattles from windows/doors/walls/duct work, etc.), or “tactile” feedback (such as vibrations from the floor or even from the furniture being sat on), will change from room to room.

 

Conclusion: The perceivable effects of bass will change from room to room.

 

Your interpretation of your own conclusion is the flaw. Perceivable effects "change", they do not cease to exist. I hope you can see the difference here, otherwise we're lost in a circle jerk. As you put it in the conversation at the GTG, "...I get zip, nothing, zero..." Transferring that to me or anyone else is a problem because, like myself, most everyone I've involved in the simple tests senses ULF vs nothing, with effects or a single sine tone of 10 Hz.

 

That being the case, my approach to HT is, which I’d like to think is fairly open minded, that measurements and testing should be done to find out which type of sub alignment is most enjoyable for the user in that specific space.  My first choice would be full bandwidth, but in some cases, the ULF effects might be only subtle enough that it may be more enjoyable for greater output capability above 15hz. 

 

That thought process erodes my credibility?  

 

I’ve gone from ported, to sealed, to ported/passive radiator, back to sealed, and now to horns.  I’m also researching and scheming with what I can do with my dang riser to get tactile feedback below 15hz.  If I can accomplish that, I may go back to sealed for the low end.

 

I simply disagree with your approach that “one solution fits all regardless of the room and if anyone disagrees they’re wrong”.

 

My approach is that 2+2=4. Anyone who says it really equals anything other than 4 because of the room or his senses or especially his preference is wrong.

 

Sealed is the only way to achieve full bandwidth in-room (2+2=4), assuming a proper signal chain (and every person who blames his room is guilty of ignoring this little detail because rooms are not much different regarding boundary gain aside from transmission losses).

 

I have never said sealed is anything else. I have never said that sealed satisfies every nuance of personal preference, which is what you and others continually accuse me of. Being chided, for one example, as believing sealed subs are the cure for cancer with chuckles all around in the puerile and PC atmosphere that AVS forums have devolved into is typical of what shaped my "online personality". The first 3,000 times or so, it's fun stuff. These days, it's just boring noob BS to be treated as such. Put words in my mouth to suit your position and get back whatever may come of that with no apologies from me.

 

You have to admit that James has a unique space, and the measurements I’ve seen of his indicate nothing less than some pretty incredible room gain.  Also, his description of the pressurization of the room from ULF sounds awesome.  I have no doubt he thoroughly enjoys sub 10hz material in his room.

 

James' room gain transfer function curve is within (+/-) 3dB of every room we can document from known credible measurements of the native response of their SWs vs their posted in-room responses. That is the average of a dozen such RG curves derived thusly. The rooms vary in size from <2000 ft^3 to >6000 ft^3 and in construction from frame/siding to frame/brick to hollow masonry to solid masonry, above ground, partially underground and fully underground. The only variable is differences in 1) signal chain integrity and 2) transmission losses.

[lukeamdman]

 

That’s not at all what I’m saying.  You’re missing my point entirely.  This is all I’m saying:

 

Premise #1:  Room gain profiles will change from room to room

 

Premise #2:  Feedback from the room itself, whether it be audible feedback (such as rattles from windows/doors/walls/duct work, etc.), or “tactile” feedback (such as vibrations from the floor or even from the furniture being sat on), will change from room to room.

 

Conclusion: The perceivable effects of bass will change from room to room.

 

Your interpretation of your own conclusion is the flaw. Perceivable effects "change", they do not cease to exist. I hope you can see the difference here, otherwise we're lost in a circle jerk. As you put it in the conversation at the GTG, "...I get zip, nothing, zero..." Transferring that to me or anyone else is a problem because, like myself, most everyone I've involved in the simple tests senses ULF vs nothing, with effects or a single sine tone of 10 Hz.

 

 

I do think there is the possibility for extreme circumstances where the ULF effects can be pretty much non-existent, and I think my old HT space was one of those.

 

I don't know how else to describe it other than not being able to hear, feel, or have any perceivable sensation of sub 15hz material.  It was both extremely frustrating and disappointing after all the effort to build those cabinets.  I went from ported to sealed with the only intention and goal being sub 15hz playback.  

 

Looking back, it most certainly was not my signal chain.  I've measured the Marantz AV7005 and the MiniDSP, and both combined are somewhere in the realm of -1db at 3 or 4hz (don't quote me on that, I'd have to look it up to be certain), and the Sanway amps have a similarly superb low end response.

[Bossobass Dave]

[lukeamdman]

These last few pages really showed your true colors, Dave.  

[dominguez1]

Wow...after reading the past few pages, this behavior seems very familiar...

 

Craig Chase and Beeman have taken over 1 or more db accounts...please hand them back over to their original owners.

 

[tuxedocivic]

Only a dozen RG transfer functions?

 

Here's another. I have a similar bull at 12hz like Ricci. And my signal chain (amp) wasn't very good when I did this measurement. I need to get around to doing a better job.