Bossobass Mini GTG Thread

[Madaeel]

Right now, I'm using GIK GridFusor extruded polystyrene (EPS) forms.  I wanted to test out diffusion in my room without spending a boat load of money, so I started with one 4-pack.  I (and my wife) were immediately sold.  I later invested in two more packages for a total of 12.  They are not true QRDs because they lack fins to divide the bins and they are also a mirrored design, unlike true QRD designs.  Nevertheless, they work quite well.  While the EPS is higher density than is typical for packing material, it is brittle and vulnerable to scraping damage.  In the long run, I hope to apply my wood-working skills to build replacements out of wood because that appears to be the only cost effective way to obtain them.

Hmmm I might have to try some of these out. My room isn't "bright" now but I know acoustic treatments would help regardless. Thx SME.

[Madaeel]

High Q peak? Umm, where?

 

I think he meant the 15db peak was wide from 5-100hz??

 

 

[Infrasonic]

That would be a Low Q "peak" then.

 

High Q is narrow.

 

Contrary to Dave's belief that we must all adhere to 'flat equals signal reproduced faithfully' most people do not like the sound of 'flat'. Most people prefer a mildly downsloping response where the highest highs are down a few dB and the bass below 150-200hz is about 6dB higher than the midrange. To most, this sounds flat while the actual flat response sounds bass thin and bright.

 

We can agree to disagree. No problem here. I'm just not sure why Dave is singling me out when his bests buds in here have the nearly the same equipment and response as I do but they're like, totally awesome and I'm just distorted. Hopefully he's just having me and I'm too dumb to notice. I'm not sleeping well lately.

[Infrasonic]

Hmmm I might have to try some of these out. My room isn't "bright" now but I know acoustic treatments would help regardless. Thx SME.

 

I'm using the GIK Gridfusor diffusers too.

[lukeamdman]

Lolwut? The response is basically flat to 100hz in that pic, Dave. How is a boosted level below 80hz going to muddy my vocals? They sound fine.

 

And compression? Lol, if your 8-16 15's aren't compressing then my 14 18's and 12 15's aren't going to. So no.

 

High Q peak? Umm, where?

 

 

Idk why but I'm having a hard time telling if you're completely sincere or totally busting my balls. I hope it's the latter.

 

I hope it's the latter.  

 

The more I read on there that "distortion is any deviation from the source" blah blah blah...and then he's fine with a rolled off top end, and he's boosting below 30hz?  Wouldn't both of those be "distortion"?  

 

I'm confused.  

[Madaeel]

That would be a Low Q "peak" then.

 

High Q is narrow.

 

Contrary to Dave's belief that we must all adhere to 'flat equals signal reproduced faithfully' most people do not like the sound of 'flat'. Most people prefer a mildly downsloping response where the highest highs are down a few dB and the bass below 150-200hz is about 6dB higher than the midrange. To most, this sounds flat while the actual flat response sounds bass thin and bright.

 

We can agree to disagree. No problem here. I'm just not sure why Dave is singling me out when his bests buds in here have the nearly the same equipment and response as I do but they're like, totally awesome and I'm just distorted. Hopefully he's just having me and I'm too dumb to notice. I'm not sleeping well lately.

Huh always thought it was the other way around. You can see how much I eq.

 

Yah even if I had wood floors I'd still run a couple db hot. Out in Cali are you on a slab on the first floor?

I'm using the GIK Gridfusor diffusers too.

How do you calculate reflection points?

[Infrasonic]

Huh always thought it was the other way around. You can see how much I eq.

 

Yah even if I had wood floors I'd still run a couple db hot. Out in Cali are you on a slab on the first floor?

How do you calculate reflection points?

 

On concrete but that's what the subwoofer riser is for.

 

I "calculated" their position by going ... "I want diffusion in the surround field".

 

So I placed them in the surround field.

 

But seriously, I took a mirror and walked it around the side and rear wall. Where I could see the reflection of the surround speakers is where I put the diffusion.

[Infrasonic]

I hope it's the latter.  

 

The more I read on there that "distortion is any deviation from the source" blah blah blah...and then he's fine with a rolled off top end, and he's boosting below 30hz?  Wouldn't both of those be "distortion"?  

 

I'm confused.  

 

Agreed.

[Bossobass Dave]

Lolwut? The response is basically flat to 100hz in that pic, Dave. How is a boosted level below 80hz going to muddy my vocals? They sound fine.

 

And compression? Lol, if your 8-16 15's aren't compressing then my 14 18's and 12 15's aren't going to. So no.

 

High Q peak? Umm, where?

 

 

Idk why but I'm having a hard time telling if you're completely sincere or totally busting my balls. I hope it's the latter.

 

 

 

Heh. You're adorable, Dave. Those cute little speakers of yours will make them wish they were born a woman if they ever met some of ours.

 

If you want to do 'full range' mains (like your CC) then do it like I did with quad 18's per per channel. That's how a man does full range mains.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/data/2306745/9/93/93a76930_20131214_1916521.jpeg

 

 

 

I thought you said you were running the CC large, full range, 3-20k Hz. I asked for a measurement trace of same. So, you obviously aren't? Or, are you smokin' medicinal?

[MKtheater]

I am not Scott but I believe he is running large plus LFE to his mains.  His mains consist of 4 2226's each sealed and maybe some SI 18's, I could be wrong. I ran one sealed JBL 2035 for each speaker and they were flat to 50hz in the baffle wall.  I am sure they could reach single digits but not sure how loud.

[Bossobass Dave]

I hope it's the latter.  

 

The more I read on there that "distortion is any deviation from the source" blah blah blah...and then he's fine with a rolled off top end, and he's boosting below 30hz?  Wouldn't both of those be "distortion"?  

 

I'm confused.  

 

You complain about bleeding ears from a tilted response (and, where did I say that wasn't distortion?), but you use horn CDs and run the top end flat? That's not confusing? Or, is the disclaimer that you sit in the back and squint, or whatever it was, supposed to make it less confusing?

 

Yet, a +15 to 30dB bumped low end being described as distortion confuses you? Dunno what to say to that.

[Bossobass Dave]

I am not Scott but I believe he is running large plus LFE to his mains.  His mains consist of 4 2226's each sealed and maybe some SI 18's, I could be wrong. I ran one sealed JBL 2035 for each speaker and they were flat to 50hz in the baffle wall.  I am sure they could reach single digits but not sure how loud.

 

Yeah, well my point is that bumping the SW channel by +15dB has one down side of muddying the CC vocals. I cross at 100 Hz and it's immediately noticeable going from a flat SW channel to bumping it +15dB.

 

If there's some advantage to running the CC large and adding LFE, etc., a better explanation than "that's how a man does it" is required, or the whole subject was just a joke and I should just play along.

[lukeamdman]

You complain about bleeding ears from a tilted response (and, where did I say that wasn't distortion?), but you use horn CDs and run the top end flat? That's not confusing? Or, is the disclaimer that you sit in the back and squint, or whatever it was, supposed to make it less confusing?

 

Yet, a +15 to 30dB bumped low end being described as distortion confuses you? Dunno what to say to that.

 

Let's start with the first part:

 

 

"Distortion", as described by you, is any deviation from the source signal?  (Response at the LP, not THD)

[Bossobass Dave]

Let's start with the first part:

 

 

"Distortion", as described by you, is any deviation from the source signal?  (Response at the LP, not THD)

 

Harmonic distortion, total harmonic distortion, total harmonic distortion + noise, intermodulation distortion, doppler distortion, dynamic distortion, temporal distortion, stored energy distortion, ringing distortion, bandwidth distortion... and, frequency altered amplitude (and phase error) distortion is just another one on the list.

 

They're all distortions, linear and non-linear, associated with audio reproduction. You may have a favorite, like THD, but that just means you have a favorite and doesn't discount any or all of the others.

 

My contention is that THD is far less audible than a 15dB peak. Had I known you don't believe that, I would have certainly proved it to you at the GTG.

[lukeamdman]

Harmonic distortion, total harmonic distortion, total harmonic distortion + noise, intermodulation distortion, doppler distortion, dynamic distortion, temporal distortion, stored energy distortion, ringing distortion, bandwidth distortion... and, frequency altered amplitude (and phase error) distortion is just another one on the list.

 

They're all distortions, linear and non-linear, associated with audio reproduction. You may have a favorite, like THD, but that just means you have a favorite and doesn't discount any or all of the others.

 

My contention is that THD is far less audible than a 15dB peak. Had I known you don't believe that, I would have certainly proved it to you at the GTG.

 

Are you confusing my comments with Scott's?  Where did I ever say that?

[tuxedocivic]

I find bumped up bass makes vocals boom in the CC also. There's plenty of <80hz content in a male voice. Of course, some more than others. But when it happens, it drives me up the wall.

 

I like flat response to 500hz and then slight down slope from there (in room response, not speaker response). I've been to GTGs where they run hot and it just sounds like a bass mess to me. But hey, we all like different flavors of cereal, so why not bass too. Have a big bowl of distortion if you enjoy it

[Bossobass Dave]

Are you confusing my comments with Scott's?  Where did I ever say that?

 

Yes. It's difficult to remember one-liners. Sorry.

 

Let's start with the first part:

 

 

"Distortion", as described by you, is any deviation from the source signal?  (Response at the LP, not THD)

 

I dislike any channel being 15dB above any other channel. It's gross distortion. Unmistakably audible. Far more so than and definitely distinguished from THD.

 

Was that the question?

[SME]

Hmmm I might have to try some of these out. My room isn't "bright" now but I know acoustic treatments would help regardless. Thx SME.

If you don't have any acoustic treatments already, then I recommend starting with installing bass traps in room corners and treating the worst early reflection points.  REW is your friend here as it can help you both identify problem areas that need treatment and verify that the installed treatments work as intended.

[Bossobass Dave]

That would be a Low Q "peak" then.

 

High Q is narrow.

 

Contrary to Dave's belief that we must all adhere to 'flat equals signal reproduced faithfully' most people do not like the sound of 'flat'. Most people prefer a mildly downsloping response where the highest highs are down a few dB and the bass below 150-200hz is about 6dB higher than the midrange. To most, this sounds flat while the actual flat response sounds bass thin and bright.

 

We can agree to disagree. No problem here. I'm just not sure why Dave is singling me out when his bests buds in here have the nearly the same equipment and response as I do but they're like, totally awesome and I'm just distorted. Hopefully he's just having me and I'm too dumb to notice. I'm not sleeping well lately.

 

I wasn't commenting on the bandwidth. Jumping +15dB at cross is a high Q anomaly. Sorry for the confusion in terms, but running a sub hot is a high Q transition.

 

I don't care what anyone prefers and my posts are not about my religious experiences with audio. Dunno why some always boil it down to my "beliefs". Flat is correct. Deviations are distortion. This is audio 101. I refrain from personal preferences and post flat-at-reference-level hardware, signal chain, FR, room gain transfer function, speclab scene caps and associated theory.

 

Fielding the "yeah, but mine hits hard cause hot is it and that's the way I likes it" kinda interjections are irrelevant. There's no reason to take a discussion of base line facts as a personal assault on one's religious beliefs regarding audio reproduction, but it seems I'm destined to be dragged into that scenario for eternity.

 

To try to stay on point, because I would actually like to get to the bottom of it without the side issues that cropped up here, I would like to know why you mentioned your PA speaker CC being run large, but with subwoofers or whatever it is that you were saying. To be honest, you assumed a whole lot in the conversation.

 

Contrary to your belief that everyone here reads every thread at AVS, I have no idea what system you're running. Last I heard it was dual, stacked LLT ported subs in one corner of a small room.

 

Sorry, but you can be more exact about your CC method and madness or I'll just answer as randomly as the comments call for.

[Infrasonic]

For the last year and a half, I ran my LCR's full range. They are fully active using a DCX per channel. Each LCR had quad 15's playing bass/midbass but still were crossed to their own quad set of 18's sealed (how a man does full range, Dave) with twelve total also with the LFE output summed to all twelve.

 

This setup was changed this year when I redid my front wall. I am now using only two 15's per LCR and crossing them at 80hz. Up front there are eight HT18's all sealed and dual opposed. How could Bosso not like this?

 

The response was flat to the single digits with each channel. Of course it would with four sealed 18's with boosted lowend. To my surprise the quad 15's which are sealed had quite a lot of extension on their own. They just couldn't go as loud or stay as clean down super low at high SPL. At normal SPL, anything below reference, they held up surprisingly well. I guess I could still take a brand new measurement for you, Dave. Though they will be in a slightly different arrangement than they used to be.

 

I get it, you like it flat. A lot of us don't. It's not distortion but a "distortion of original shape" which is totally different and up for interpretation of what is really 'correct'. EQ is there to fix things or shape the sound to personal taste. Why not try all your sealed subs with out shaping their response and come back to me on that. Oh yeah, don't forget measurements (which you have taken already) to prove that it's different and distorted, erm, I mean totally not distorted.

 

Yes, actually, I do notice 'chestiness' in the sound from my CC and I'm totally okay with that because it sounds fine almost all the time and the rest of the time everything else sounds absolutely perfect to me. Just the occasional male dialog will sound chesty but only when they are close mic'd as well. Better than that sound of a typical speaker with small drivers having a gigantic hole in midbass capability. Different strokes. I guess you would not enjoy the sound of my room.

Actually, you probably would. You seemed to enjoy your visit to Brandon's house and our systems are extremely similar. It's too bad we are so far away from one another that it makes it so difficult to share experiences together.

 

Also not sure why we all have to come to these sorts of blows back and forth. We all like different things. Would this hobby be as interesting or fun if everyone in the world has their setup identical to yours or mine? No way.

[Infrasonic]

I wasn't commenting on the bandwidth. Jumping +15dB at cross is a high Q anomaly. Sorry for the confusion in terms, but running a sub hot is a high Q transition.

 

Fair enough

 

I don't care what anyone prefers and my posts are not about my religious experiences with audio. Dunno why some always boil it down to my "beliefs". Flat is correct. Deviations are distortion. This is audio 101. I refrain from personal preferences and post flat-at-reference-level hardware, signal chain, FR, room gain transfer function, speclab scene caps and associated theory.

 

You seem to leave out the part where some of us that are smart enough to hang with you have tried 'flat' and didn't like it. Do you ever add salt or hot sauce to food?

 

Fielding the "yeah, but mine hits hard cause hot is it and that's the way I likes it" kinda interjections are irrelevant. There's no reason to take a discussion of base line facts as a personal assault on one's religious beliefs regarding audio reproduction, but it seems I'm destined to be dragged into that scenario for eternity.

 

I agree.

 

The reason why you "get dragged into" these discussions is because of the remarks you make towards other people and their preferences. Not sure if you're aware of your own expressions towards others.

 

To try to stay on point, because I would actually like to get to the bottom of it without the side issues that cropped up here, I would like to know why you mentioned your PA speaker CC being run large, but with subwoofers or whatever it is that you were saying. To be honest, you assumed a whole lot in the conversation.

 

Sorry, my bad. I thought you were a fan of mine. You record every single FR post anybody on this planet has so I assumed you were mildly interested in my system. For a guy who loves bass, you don't seem to have much interest in a system like mine that can produce a fuck ton of bass and not just in one narrow-ish region called ULF.

 

I just posted some details. If you have any questions I'd be happy to answer. Also, if you ever have any specific requests for measurement (I can only do what my Omnimic allows) then I'd also be happy to oblige. That stuff is fun.

 

Contrary to your belief that everyone here reads every thread at AVS, I have no idea what system you're running. Last I heard it was dual, stacked LLT ported subs in one corner of a small room.

 

WAAHHHTT!?!!? You should be reading every single one of my posts. They're too important to ignore.

 

Btw, it was only stacked in one corner for one month in 2007. Now I'm sad.

 

Sorry, but you can be more exact about your CC method and madness or I'll just answer as randomly as the comments call for.

 

 

Hope that helps better. I'd like to keep it civil. We're all friends here.

[Bossobass Dave]

Thanks for the info on your setup, it helps in a meaningful convo, every time.

 

I must say that it's you (and others) who insist on schooling me regarding what others think, "contrary to Dave's beliefs", and it's annoying. Take that however you wish, I'm just letting you know what you obviously don't about my feelings on the subject.

 

The subject of distortion is an important one. Not many people on these boards have a clue when it comes to this subject. What about the analog guys who say that the very high 2HD of their class A tube stuff "sounds warmer, phat", or otherwise more betterer? Does that mean it's no longer distortion because a lot of guys like their sound that way?

 

I believe the technical term is Frequency altered amplitude and phase error distortion. I didn't invent the term or the definition.

 

If someone says (and, apparently, a recent phenomenon or a few real men with their audio preferences) "I like it at least 15dB hot. It sounds better to me that way", everyone is cool with that. But when someone refers to it as gross distortion, they become indignant and demand a different definition?

 

Silly. Get over it already.

[Infrasonic]

Heheh. Okay, Dave.

 

But still... have you ever added salt or hot sauce to food? The person who made that dish might have something to say about your dousing it with hot sauce. I on the other hand would get upset that I'm not being allowed to enjoy it how I like it. Goes both ways. Who is the correct one? Both.

 

Just sayin', the bumped lowend most people like is like that. I will admit that you are correct and that it is a distortion of the original but some people like to turn their sharpness up too so. At the end it's the end user that is important.

 

Whew, yeah... analog tube guys. Wow. There is a difference though. If you talk to one and they will not acknowledge that it is the higher order distortion that is producing a pleasing artifact... then that guy is a dunderhead. If you talk to another one that understand that is what is happening and enjoys it nonetheless ... then... then what? That guys is slightly less an asshole now, I think.

[tuxedocivic]

 

I get it, you like it flat. A lot of us don't. It's not distortion but a "distortion of original shape" which is totally different and up for interpretation of what is really 'correct'. EQ is there to fix things or shape the sound to personal taste. Why not try all your sealed subs with out shaping their response and come back to me on that. Oh yeah, don't forget measurements (which you have taken already) to prove that it's different and distorted, erm, I mean totally not distorted.

 

 

I'm not sure what you're saying here? Distortion /= Distortion of Original Shape? They seem like the same thing.    Up for interpretation? I don't think deviation from flat is up for interpretation. Any deviation is exactly that, a deviation. Taking an interpretation of frequency response is fine and dandy, but it's not an interpretation of the definition.

 

You say EQ is to fix things (yes I agree) and then challenge Bosso to try his subs without the shaping. So, EQ/shaping brings distorted (non-flat) systems into a format of less distortion (nearly flat) but Dave should try it without the shaping? That would keep the system in the distorted condition.

 

I think you're confusing terms here. The eq in Dave's system is to reduce distortion. Your reasoning is circular.

[tuxedocivic]

But still... have you ever added salt or hot sauce to food? The person who made that dish might have something to say about your dousing it with hot sauce. I on the other hand would get upset that I'm not being allowed to enjoy it how I like it. Goes both ways. Who is the correct one? Both.

 

Just sayin', the bumped lowend most people like is like that. I will admit that you are correct and that it is a distortion of the original but some people like to turn their sharpness up too so. At the end it's the end user that is important.

 

 

Ok this is more coherent. The original dish is the intended, flat response. That's cool. If someone wants to hot sauce the dish, they're welcome to it, but it's not what the chef intended. You seemed to be saying the chef was putting grey matter on the table and people got to chose how the dish should taste. How it should taste and how they like it are different things.