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maxmercy

The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)

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So no ones charted TDKR for the scene where 'The Bat' fly's out of the dark alley?

TDKR is on page 23 with the link on the 1st page. The scene you're looking for is included.

 

Back to OZ... although some might enjoy looking for white spots below 5 Hz, I found OZ to be unique for 2 main reasons:

 

First, there are one-of-a-kind effects. Most notably is the one in the witch fight scene right before the roof gets damaged. It's def a new algorithm or a blend of same and recorded real event, but it's a brandy-new effect with an other-worldly sound. Uniqueness is big in my preferences. The effects are cutting edge and not repeated throughout the film as a time-saver or to have the end result of beating the unique quality out of it.

 

Second is that the design template looks to have shifted the center of the effects up a decade vs most other good LFE soundtracks, while keeping the ULF foundation. The impact and dynamics are as good as it gets (like the fireworks, which have that transient smack in the face), while the ULF part is enough to add the tactile foundation. This is very close to the real event and mixed just right so that you get everything your sub can give without the feeling that the low end is just ham-fisted for the sake of overkill.

 

531da33e81f48a18523410c38423193f.jpg

 

I've zoomed the waveform graph to underscore the point. Notice the flat line at the bottom of the waveform (the onset of the firework explosion). It just appears abruptly, centered at 50 Hz with a full BW spread and decays into ULF (to below 3 Hz) where the next explosion occurs, just as abruptly, just as real percussive fireworks do.

 

Finally, when you add top notch upper frequency steering, as in the tornado scene, you're further detached from only focussing on the LFE part of the soundtrack as the steering cues are whirling around your head, and objects are whizzing past from different angles, pulling you deeper into the movie scene. Once in the eye of the tornado, the sound abruptly changes and the video is slowed. This is what sound and video effects and the mixing thereof are all about, IMO.

 

So, although the real hot < 10 Hz stuff is not there, the < 10 Hz stuff is definitely there, you can feel it, it appears with the transient attack and decays afterward, as real event ULF does, and the whole package of audio and video come together as movies rarely do.

 

The fact that Marti showed up is a bonus, but shows me how into his job he is. This one has a half dozen demo-worthy scenes of both audio and video. It's a definite must-add to any collection. Hats off, thumbs up, 5 stars and KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

 

That's my review, and I'm sticking to it.

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I need to watch this at reference now! Besides the video is superb as well! Bosso I noticed that unique sound as well and was going to just graph that scene. It looks like a couple 30-20 hz sweeps with a big blast near 20hz!

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Thanks again guys. Please understand that I can't comment directly on "How do you....?"

I want to bring something up...

There seems to be a look at the graph then listen to the mix instead of the other way around here.

A graph should not influence your appreciation of the sub energy but should reinforce what your ears have experienced. We don't mix to a graph because sound mixing and sound design are a subjective process. I didn't build my 11.1 Auro-3D room for specs,but for the immersive experience. Please enjoy "Oz" for what we did on the sound and the experience it gives you listening to it in your Home Theater. We put lot's of effort into getting you the

Experience that we had in a Theatrical environment and translated it very accurately to your Home Theater.

Now go listen in your Home Theater once it has been calibrated at "reference" !

Turn down the lights and let it rip!

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Dr Sound,

Some context regarding the genesis of this particular thread may be helpful for everyone, yourself included, to understand what this thread is about. The short and sweet version; Subjective threads and discussions exist in abundance. This was created in large part to correlate the actual spectral content and recorded level of soundtracks material, etc., to what we experience in our HTs..., many of which are quite capable as one can imagine.     

 

"We put lot's of effort into getting you the Experience that we had in a Theatrical environment and translated it very accurately to your Home Theater."

 

You have no idea how much that effort is appreciated. Additionally, your comments and input here is equally as appreciated.

 

Thank you whole heartedly for this gem.

 

All the best

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Thanks again guys. 

 

There seems to be a look at the graph then listen to the mix instead of the other way around here.

 

 

Marti,

 

Time and funds are not unlimited for most of us. The heads up available before you rent or buy is the main reason for this forum. I've appreciated the efforts in this regard of those who came before me and I enjoy continuing the effort.

 

Member maxmercy is an acutely capable enthusiast and his efforts are above and beyond pretty much anyone I'm aware of, enthusiast or otherwise.

 

Besides that, the only tool we have is to starve the beast when the sound is below par. If we all rent/buy first, that tool disappears.

 

Once the verdict is in and it's thumbs up, believe me, pah-lenty of folks will buy and enjoy.  ;)

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Marti,

 

I fully understand not divulging the "how do you..." part of it as that is proprietary. What I was trying to discern is if you guys are fully aware of everything you put into the tracks and effects, i.e. if adding ULF is completely intentional and if you folks have a way of auditioning the full effect of all of it before completion.

 

If your facility is completely cognizant of everything put in the effects and how low and loud they go and how much they add to the experience, why are there so many other soundtracks that are neutered? Is it because they don't have the ability to experience how much of a difference it can make? Or is it a conscious decision to omit ULF for other reasons?

 

 

Max

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I do understand. We do try to give a full frequency experience in our mixing and while many here are focused on the last 10 hertz we try to 

spread our sound from top to bottom, low to high within our 37 speaker system. We do not omit anything that you guys would focus on.

I can relate to time and money, but I am focused on what the marketplace such as you guys and AVS Forum discuss.

We mixed "Oz" with taking this into account. Once again it is not who is the lowest for the sake of a graph but what is apropriate for what 

the particular scene is and what the clients want or like. That is also what dynamics are for. Thank you all for allowing me to come to this forum and speak freely 

while being very well aware of what may of you here goals are in respect to the soundtrack. I am very proud of "Oz" and I am excited to hear back from you all 

once you experience the 7.1 mix at your Home Theater. All the best!

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I definitely enjoyed the mix on Oz. Thanks for taking the time to provide additional insights to the behind-the-scenes aspects. Definitely looking forward to hearing more soundtracks mixed at your facility as you guys at least get it. Hopefully more facilities and clients 'get it' in the future too.

 

Yes, admittedly, many of us with the capability are fans of those last 10Hz, but it's not just about the lowest possible frequencies, it's about creating the experience. We've all been to fireworks displays. We can all recall not only the visuals but the concussive nature of the big bangs/booms. That you folks understand that and mix it into the effects recreates that sensation and provides cues that we expect.

 

Likewise if there's a 300 foot tall object made of solid rock stomping around and there's no ULF accompanying it (The Hobbit), it just seems unrealistic.

 

 

Max

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BTW,

I watched OZ before I graphed it, I always watch before I graph as I have kids and I am the biggest one.  The Hobbit's bass was gone but I own it just because and I never graphed it because there was no need.  I only graph something I notice or requested by others.

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I still have to wait until mid July here in sweden to get my hands on OZ (looking forward to it) although by looking at the graphs i know what to expect compared to other movies,the best part is to watch a new movie and all of a sudden you and your body get smacked by some bass (for instance hurtlocker with the .50 Cal scene) then you get curious how they did that and how low did that go (strong 10Hz) if i remember correct,i think those movies with < 20Hz output put an extra dimension to watching them,and i just love it.

 

Nicke

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Holy jeez!!!

 

 

I am away for a few days hosting a WiffleBall tournament and tons of stuff happens here....

 

Oz is a 21Hz track at -10dB down for peak, and 15Hz for Average, even with the upswing at 1Hz (that is real, and repeatably measured).  That's 3 Stars for extension.  With the current scheme, it will be at 5 Stars for Dynamics, and 5 Stars for Level.  With the comments above, this is a 5-Star Execution film, for an overall LF Score of 4.5 Stars, and 'BUY' rating.

 

The 27Hz signal is real.  It is the most powerful 1Hz sound effect in the film.

 

Absolute peak levels with bass management are -1.27dBFS, and max RMS is -8.4dBFS (125ms window) with the average levels coming in at -31.25dBFS for total RMS, for nearly 30dB worth of dynamics (peak minus total RMS)

 

The entire ranking system will change based on the fact that I m looking at the data on the disc, not what an AVR, player, or any other component does to the data.

 

I will have more to post later, and MK, there is still work being done to make the process easier.  More as I get it.

 

 

Dr Sound,

 

Thanks so much for your input!  I do have a question, though.  How different is the theatrical mix from the HT mix? 

 

I did notice that especially in the center channel, some of the content is clipped.  Do you guys keep track of this?  Is it done on purpose?  If you want me to give you timestamps, or a graphical representation, I can.

 

I will always reserve opinion on a film for 'execution' and 'rent/buy' until after I have seen the film at least once.  The measurement is just an apples/apples comparison tool, to allow us to see dBFS levels and to see the spectral content when comparing films/games/music/whatever.

 

 

JSS

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Having read this in the past week:

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.meyersound.com%2Fpdf%2Fcinema_technical_papers%2Fcinema_calibration_tech_report.pdf&ei=bC3IUZnfKcPb0QHp5YG4Aw&usg=AFQjCNG7RdsMzHgAK317cec0BHS7kvowpQ&sig2=dx6SxCIdebEOA64lIhtLXw

 

I was surprised to see the variety of methods available for calibration and the swing in real dB they will lead to when implemented.

 

I have assumed that the most a 7.1, bass managed film could deliver was 128dB.  That's 105dB sinewave RMS from each of the 7 speakers, plus 115dB sinewave RMS from the LFE.  A sinewave has peaks 3dB higher than the RMS level, hence 128dB vs 125dB. 

 

The pdf above tends to lean towards peaks needing to be at 128dB, not 125dB, as the RMS value of the Meyer pink noise is -23dBFS.  If this noise is used and generates an SPL value of 85dB on an RMS meter at the listening position, that means instantaneous peaks will reach 128dB, and that is how I translate the dBFS to real dB, with 0dBFS on the bass-managed signal being 128dB at the listening position.

 

 

Dr. Sound, how do you guys calibrate?  Do you use Meyer's pink noise tones? 

 

 

JSS

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I do understand. We do try to give a full frequency experience in our mixing and while many here are focused on the last 10 hertz we try to 

spread our sound from top to bottom, low to high within our 37 speaker system.

 

One of my favorite soundtracks is Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen for precisely that reason.  Great use of nearly the entire LFE bandwidth, with many varied effects.  Even though it did not flex its might into the single digits (and not a true 5-Star LF film),  I enjoyed it immensely, despite the bad acting, poor story, etc. 

 

Thanks again for your input!  What are you guys working on nowadays?

 

JSS

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OZ The Great And Powerful

 

MovieswithbassTitleBlock_zps089c51f1.jpg

 

PVAOZ_zpsfe12773c.jpgOZ1_zps152ee8bc.jpgOZ2_zpsfb302563.jpg

 

OZ3_zps9402f624.jpgOZ4_zpsc6a21b8d.jpg

Yes, this soundtrack is superb.

 

I purposely watched this on a small system first. Wouldn't give you a dime for it. Then watched on the full BW system and immediately told wifey to buy it.  :lol:

 

Yes, this soundtrack is superb.

 

Max,

 

WTF is that 27 Hz centered blip? My system isn't perfectly calibrated yet after the changes I've made, but it's close enough that dark purple gets my attention. I check the FR at the LP and there isn't a peak ther. If anything, there's a -2dB dip!

 

Also, I read your comment at AVS and had a post ready to disagree because I know we have a crapload more influence than most people believe we do. WOTW disc sales would not be anywhere near what they are (and continue to be) if it weren't for us. I've also had conversations with plenty of industry folk (hardware and software) who know of our many discussions on the subject of low end.

 

Anyway, I was set to post when I saw the mix-house guy popped in. I'll just say... "Told ya".  :P

 

I have been officially 'told'.  But I'll 'believe' when people start outfitting mix stages and sound design and editing rooms with systems capable of single digit Hz-delivery at low distortion.

 

The 27Hz is real, and crazy loud.  Thanks for the timestamps!  I'll get them graphed at 1Hz resolution to let you see how powerful it is.  I'll also provide the clipping analysis.  Maybe in a few days.

 

JSS

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I have been officially 'told'.  But I'll 'believe' when people start outfitting mix stages and sound design and editing rooms with systems capable of single digit Hz-delivery at low distortion.

 

The 27Hz is real, and crazy loud.  Thanks for the timestamps!  I'll get them graphed at 1Hz resolution to let you see how powerful it is.  I'll also provide the clipping analysis.  Maybe in a few days.

 

JSS

 

 

I posted earlier that I believed the CC was clipped. Glad you caught that. Overall, it wasn't that it downgraded the experience for me, I just have monitoring hardware that typical HT gear lacks, so I wondered if it was a cal thing on my part or the actual soundtrack.

 

Curious thing about these pro sound guys. They always respond to offers to outfit their rooms with flat-to-5 Hz systems with "Hey kid, we know all about the available hardware for low end...". Trouble with that is that the available gear barely gets 20 Hz let alone 5 Hz. So, no... they'll likely never get 5 Hz in house. I just meant that they do indeed read our stuff and that we collectively have more influence than is acknowledged. I know because industry folk have told me exactly that.

 

People discuss subwoofers like the Submersive or the Cap S as though that's the ticket to full BW playback (just like the pro sounders drop a manny's name like Meyer or JBL or Bag End or whatever in the same context) and DIYers are guilty of the same by coupling a stack of sealed "X" brand 18" drivers with a clone amp that's "... flat to 2 Hz...".

 

Having a closer look:

 

86b14cad72a158bc5d1c7108e99a9c6d.jpg

 

The GOLD trace is my new reference signal of the Oppo flagship player-as-pre/pro through my SEQSS signal shaper. The SEQSS has no roll off. The -1dB @ 2 Hz drop is all from the Oppo.

 

The BLACK trace is: Reference signal => "Modded" K12000 "clone" amp (-3dB @ 3 Hz).

 

The BLUE trace is: Reference signal => FP14000 "clone" amp ( -7.5dB @ 3 Hz)

 

The PURPLE trace is: Reference signal => "X" brand digital PEQ => FP14000 "clone" amp (-15dB @ 3 Hz)

 

The RED trace is: "X" brand player => "X" brand AVR SW output => SEQSS => "X" brand digital PEQ => FP14000 "clone (-18dB  @ 3 Hz)

 

Now, add the roll off of the subwoofer to the signal chain roll off and that's what the room has to provide through boundary gain to get flat to 3 Hz in-room.

 

The experts can't even wrap their hands around what "room gain" is, let alone predict its influence on the final FR in-room below 10 Hz and I have yet to bump into ANY pro-sounder who has accurate FR measurement capability to 10 Hz let alone below that.

 

For me, I fully understand the influence from boundaries, designed a signal shaper to bring the naked response of my drivers-in-boxes to give a FR that mates with boundary gain with no roll off, found a preamp that's dead flat to 3 Hz and modded the amplifiers to -3dB @ 3 Hz...

 

But, I had to toss the PEQ, design and build my own signal shaper, search for a preamp solution and measure then mod the sub amplifiers whose FR wasn't close to spec.

 

THEN you can examine how many drivers and their relative placement to handle full BW playback at reference level of the summed mono bass signal from 7 channels plus the LFE+10dB signal. 

 

Yeah, I know... to most everyone all of the above is like the teacher's voice in a Peanuts cartoon, but the offer stands if any mix houses out there care to be able to play back what they're mixing. I'll fly to wherever and propose a system. Otherwise, talk to the hand with the whatever gear you're using, but please... leave the sound design intact.  :wub:

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OZTitleBlock_zps62894168.JPG

OZPvA_zps65a9f2ba.JPG

OZ1_zps152ee8bc.JPG

OZ2_zpsfb302563.JPG

OZ3_zps9402f624.JPG

OZ4_zpsc6a21b8d.JPG

 

Oz the Great and Powerful

 

Level - 5 Stars (114.3dB composite)

Extension - 3 Stars (15.8Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (29.9dB)

Execution - 5 Stars

 

Overall - 4.5 Stars

 

Recommendation - BUY.

 

 

JSS

 

post-20-0-04384100-1372109708_thumb.png

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I posted earlier that I believed the CC was clipped. Glad you caught that. Overall, it wasn't that it downgraded the experience for me, I just have monitoring hardware that typical HT gear lacks, so I wondered if it was a cal thing on my part or the actual soundtrack.

 

Curious thing about these pro sound guys. They always respond to offers to outfit their rooms with flat-to-5 Hz systems with "Hey kid, we know all about the available hardware for low end...". Trouble with that is that the available gear barely gets 20 Hz let alone 5 Hz. So, no... they'll likely never get 5 Hz in house. I just meant that they do indeed read our stuff and that we collectively have more influence than is acknowledged. I know because industry folk have told me exactly that.

 

People discuss subwoofers like the Submersive or the Cap S as though that's the ticket to full BW playback (just like the pro sounders drop a manny's name like Meyer or JBL or Bag End or whatever in the same context) and DIYers are guilty of the same by coupling a stack of sealed "X" brand 18" drivers with a clone amp that's "... flat to 2 Hz...".

 

Having a closer look:

 

86b14cad72a158bc5d1c7108e99a9c6d.jpg

 

The GOLD trace is my new reference signal of the Oppo flagship player-as-pre/pro through my SEQSS signal shaper. The SEQSS has no roll off. The -1dB @ 2 Hz drop is all from the Oppo.

 

The BLACK trace is: Reference signal => "Modded" K12000 "clone" amp (-3dB @ 3 Hz).

 

The BLUE trace is: Reference signal => FP14000 "clone" amp ( -7.5dB @ 3 Hz)

 

The PURPLE trace is: Reference signal => "X" brand digital PEQ => FP14000 "clone" amp (-15dB @ 3 Hz)

 

The RED trace is: "X" brand player => "X" brand AVR SW output => SEQSS => "X" brand digital PEQ => FP14000 "clone (-18dB  @ 3 Hz)

 

 

That gold trace is very nice.....without proper system design, it would cause some Xmech issues with Transformers.....

 

JSS

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Bosso, 

 

Can you change the PvA for Oz?  Here is the proper one (attached).  I had a 4dB offset from an earlier project in SpecLab.  I found the error when looking at the RMS data Oz, and seeing that it did NOT match the PvA.  I wish SpecLab could do RMS data.....I use WaveShop.

 

This now makes Oz more believable, esp the 27Hz spike.  Instantaneous Peak is 126.7dB, RMS Peak is 119.6dB, and Average is 96.8dB.  I can no longer do LeqZ due to rolloff problems, but I have found that Total RMS (What I use for Average) is very similar, and best of all, repeatable.

 

Final Tally:

 

Level - 114.3dB (Average of Peak, RMS Peak, and Average) - 5 Stars

Extension - 15.8Hz - 3 Stars

Dynamics - 29.9dB - 5 Stars

Execution - 5 Stars

 

Overall - 4.5 Stars

 

Recommendation - BUY.

 

 

JSS

 

attachicon.gifOz PvA.PNG

 

Yes, I updated the PvA and the Title Block. Dunno what happened, but it just shows the code to me now.

 

This forum is shit (sorry Kyle & Josh, but I've been a member of many forums and posting on this one just plain sucks).

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That gold trace is very nice.....without proper system design, it would cause some Xmech issues with Transformers.....

 

JSS

 

Remember, the gold trace is the signal that feeds the amp. The black trace is at the amps terminals, the signal that feeds the drivers.

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Even that black trace would cause some vented boxes to simply explode. 

 

Man, that sucks about the posting.  Can you try again starting from scratch?

 

JSS

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Hey,

My sound card had my phantom power on during all the graphs, would that cause noise? I never though of turning it off since I always used my mic.

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I would try it with and without.

 

I'll post some pics of the clipping tomorrow.

 

Other films are not immune.  Tron:Legacy, Thor, Iron Man and Iron Man 2 all were clipped to some extent.  Whether or not on purpose (for a harsher, squarewave sound as an effect), who knows.

 

 

JSS

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Even that black trace would cause some vented boxes to simply explode. 

 

Man, that sucks about the posting.  Can you try again starting from scratch?

 

JSS

 

Sorry, yes, indeed either trace would be no bueno for a ported system without proper protection. But, even the lowly Behringers are -3dB @ 5 Hz.

 

Yes, I did start over, but the point is that the entire process is tedious and time-sucking in the first place and it simply doesn't have to be. I post, then I have to edit the post for ratings, corrections, additions for every movie. There's no reason to have to edit the URL from Photobucket (or any image host) to post an image on this forum. It's just a ridiculous PITA.

 

 

 

OZ The Great And Powerful

 

OZTitleBlock_zps62894168.jpgOZPvA_zps65a9f2ba.jpgOZ1_zps152ee8bc.jpgOZ2_zpsfb302563.jpgOZ3_zps9402f624.jpgOZ4_zpsc6a21b8d.jpg

 

 

Yep, that blip at 27 Hz I asked about is indeed the highest peak in the movie. I have reason to suspect it's in the CC and is clipped (as are other parts of the ST). As I said, I'll be interested to see what you find.

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