Jump to content


Photo

The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)

Bass Movies Bass Movie Measurements Deep Bass Movies Bass Waterfall Graphs Bass Graphs

  • Please log in to reply
3856 replies to this topic

#2261 Aj72

Aj72

    Super Power Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 187 posts

Posted 17 August 2014 - 01:02 PM

Homefront, really enjoyed this one. Great audio, some ripping bass moments and a good movie too.
  • Braifaraglisp likes this

#2262 nube

nube

    Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 835 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:14 PM

Only Lovers Left Alive (5.1 DTS-HD MA)

 

Level        - 1 Star (103.2dB composite)
Extension - 1 Star (43Hz)
Dynamics - 4 Stars (25.16dB)

Execution - 1 Star (by poll)

 

Overall     - 1.75 Stars

Recommendation - Tossup

 

Notes:  Completely lacking bass outside of the score, it couldn't even garner good dynamics.  Overall a disappointing mix for a so-called horror movie, but the movie itself is actually not bad at all.

 

PvA:

 

Attached File  OnlyLoversLeftAlive-PvA.PNG   124.06KB   1 downloads



#2263 nube

nube

    Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 835 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:18 PM

Toy Story of Terror (7.1 DTS-HD MA)

 

Level        - 1 Star (99.51dB composite)
Extension - 1 Star (25.1Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (29.08dB)

Execution - 1 Star (by poll)

 

Overall     - 2 Stars

Recommendation - Rent (by poll)

 

Notes:  This short has almost no bass effects.  Clearly not the production value of their feature films.  I didn't even find it very entertaining, and I generally like this franchise, and animation in general.

 

PvA:

 

Attached File  ToyStoryOfTerror-PvA.PNG   73.18KB   0 downloads



#2264 nube

nube

    Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 835 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:23 PM

Jarhead 2 (5.1 DTS-HD MA)

 

Level        - 2 Stars (106.36dB composite)
Extension - 5 Stars (1Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (31.67dB)

Execution - 3 Stars (by poll)

 

Overall     - 3.75 Stars

Recommendation - Rent (by poll)

 

Notes:  The frequent noise below 1Hz is higher amplitude than anything else on the disc, and it's not even close.  Otherwise, a few effects dig down to 6Hz, but overall not a tremendous bass movie, despite the dynamics.  Really about the same as the first one, tbh.

 

PvA:

 

Attached File  Jarhead2-PvA.PNG   76.01KB   0 downloads



#2265 nube

nube

    Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 835 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:28 PM

Happy Feet (5.1 Dolby Digital EX)

 

Level        - 3 Stars (107.58dB composite)
Extension - 4 Stars (14Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (30.24dB)

Execution - 3 Stars (by poll)

 

Overall     - 3.75 Stars

Recommendation - Rent (by poll)

 

Notes:  This one was clipped all to hell, which was odd given the content.  Cute for kids, but not much for adults.

 

PvA:

 

Attached File  HappyFeet-PvA.PNG   78.35KB   0 downloads



#2266 nube

nube

    Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 835 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:34 PM

The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (5.1 DTS-MA HD)

 

Level        - 4 Stars (110.11dB composite)
Extension - 5 Stars (1Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.7dB)

Execution - 4 Stars (by poll)

 

Overall     - 4.5 Stars

Recommendation - Buy (by poll)

 

Notes:  They righted the wrongs from the first one's mix, at least to some degree.  This one has strong 12Hz stuff in the beginning, and a fair amount of unfiltered content overall, while maintaining good levels and dynamics.  The movie itself, however, is a big miss compared to the first one.

 

PvA:

 

Attached File  TheAmazingSpider-Man2-PvA.PNG   75.23KB   0 downloads



#2267 gdffgdfgd

gdffgdfgd

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 39 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 06:13 PM

I know it's not out in the US yet (but it is where I live) so it will be a while before it gets measured, but you can already get excited for the new Captain America movie. Great bass in this one, since the Avengers I'm always like "let's hope there isn't a 30 Hz filter in this one" when watching new blockbusters but thankfully that was not the case here at all.

Was going to post a couple of graphs but apparently I've reached some kind of upload limit, maybe this could be increased somehow?



#2268 nube

nube

    Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 835 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 06:22 PM

The big difference you'll see between these two is that the new Captain America has very strong content at 30Hz that is about 6dB louder than anything in the TASM2 mix.  Otherwise, they're very similar in measurements.

 

However, I agree that TASM2 doesn't feel like it has a ton of strong bass content, but it's still very obviously a good, not great, bass movie



#2269 gdffgdfgd

gdffgdfgd

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 39 posts

Posted 19 August 2014 - 06:57 PM

That's propably true and I have to admit to only having a single SVS PB1000 (flat to slightly below 20Hz in my rather small room). The new Captain America does indeed have the loudest content at about 30Hz (there is one pretty ridiculous moment) but there is a lot of lower stuff. Especially gunshots have some loud sub 20Hz bass added to them.

If I could post my graphs you would also see some othe low stuff (and a loud 12Hz tone I didn't notice).



#2270 Bassment

Bassment

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:32 PM

Speaking of the 20-30 hz impact, do you think an alternative rating system (still measured and scientifc) could be used to generate another list of "Best impact bass movies" or something along those lines.  A rating system that ignores extension below maybe 12 hz, and focuses a bit more on execution and level?  I'm not sure what to do for rating dynamics, I find that they aren't much of a factor if a movie's bass sounds good to me or not.  Maybe even reverse the "star" rating of dynamics, as I actually prefer low dynamic bass.



#2271 SME

SME

    Super Bass Overlord

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 965 posts

Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:47 PM

 

Speaking of the 20-30 hz impact, do you think an alternative rating system (still measured and scientifc) could be used to generate another list of "Best impact bass movies" or something along those lines.  A rating system that ignores extension below maybe 12 hz, and focuses a bit more on execution and level?  I'm not sure what to do for rating dynamics, I find that they aren't much of a factor if a movie's bass sounds good to me or not.  Maybe even reverse the "star" rating of dynamics, as I actually prefer low dynamic bass.

 

I think what's needed is to weight the response using equal loudness contours (ELCs) to assess how subjectively loud it sounds. Dynamics could be determined using a ratio of the max ELC-weighted response over short-times vs. ELC-weighted long-time response. There's still the question of how long of a window to use for the short-time average. It might be helpful to use a few window sizes with different filters (i.e., low-pass with lower cut-off for longer window) to give fair weighting to the ULF.

The tricky part is knowing the proper reference volume for each track. In my mind, that's a more fundamental issue since I'm fairly certain many highly-rated (and some not so highly-rated) bass Blu-rays were mixed with monitoring at lower levels, so that theatrical reference is too loud. For example, Star Trek sounds to me like it was mixed at or very near theatrical reference; whereas, STID sounds like it got mixed closer to -10 (and clipped to death in the process of giving up 10 dB headroom). If this difference in reference volumes were taken into account, STID would end up with an even lower rating!

Sad to say, we may never know the correct reference levels for a variety of Blu-ray releases. The best we could try to do is guess by doing some kind of analysis against the dialog. From what I've read out there, both -3 and -6 are common monitor level choices for DVD and Blu-ray mixes. From what I hear (subjective interpretation) listening to media some other recent releases were likely mixed at or near -10 dB. I think Looper may also have been mixed closer to -10. This is a big deal, because if Looper were played back at -10, the deep bass wouldn't be anywhere near as loud subjectively, and it sounds more like a movie with 3 stars extension than one with 5.

I'd sure appreciate it if the studio would print the reference level somewhere on the box or at least populate the appropriate metadata like Dialnorm properly. Anyone remember the VHS days when they added the disclaimer at the start of the film: "this film has been modified to fit your TV screen"? I think they should be obligated to add a similar notice whenever they do a separate mix for Blu-ray. It's rather disingenuous in my view to claim that the a lossless "DTS-HD" or "Dolby TrueHD" track is "bit-by-bit" identical with the theatrical master as some of the early Blu-ray advertising implied. Really, I wish they'd just ship the theatrical mixes in the lossless formats and do the "made for the home" mixes with reduced dynamics in lossy Dolby Digital or DTS. My experience has been that the differences between a good lossy codec and the lossless original are most apparent with tracks having very high dynamic headroom.

Also, I'd hazard a guess that it is in the process of creating the "made for the home" mixes where a lot of clipping as well as high-pass/high-shelf filtering tends to happen. In many instances the filtering we frequently observe may have been added in that mix process to reduce or prevent clipping.

#2272 SME

SME

    Super Bass Overlord

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 965 posts

Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:10 PM

By the way, now that I'm thinking about it, I have media to submit for measurement. I think this should have no trouble claiming 5 stars all the way around: http://www.digido.co...e-lift-off.html


This is a live recording of a NASA Space Shuttle launch at 3 miles away. Be sure to download the 5.1 channel 24-bit 96kHz FLAC version. Note that the correct playback level is +7 relative to theatrical reference! The recording is 4 channel (front-left, front-right, surround-left, surround-right). The 5.1 channel FLAC contains silence for the LFE and center channels. According to Bob Katz, this thing has 119 dB at 25 Hz and 116 dB at 16 Hz and below.

On my system with multiple 16 Hz ported Hsu subs (capable of producing clean and audible bass to 12 Hz in-room), I can typically hear and appreciate the difference between 3 and 4 stars extension. While this recording sounds incredible on the system, I have no doubt my system doesn't even begin to do it justice. Those of you with walls of woofers or rotaries will likely be very pleased.

#2273 Nicke

Nicke

    Power Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 63 posts
  • LocationSweden

Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:56 AM

Nube have you tested The Haunting? its not out on br but the dvd with dts soundtrack is very cool,thinking about those doorknockings,its a Gary Rydstrom sounddesign.

N

#2274 MemX

MemX

    Bass Overlord

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 532 posts

Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:43 AM

I think I've bought that one, I need to watch it!



#2275 nube

nube

    Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 835 posts

Posted 23 August 2014 - 01:42 PM

Bassment:  I dunno, man.  Design and build a new rating system and they will come.  :)  Personally, I don't see any advantage to that, as it sounds like you're just trying to create a new ratings system that caters to your preferences.

 

SME:  While different, your solution sounds similar to how maxmercy originally accomplished measurements, by measuring the area under the curve, but they were not apples-to-apples.  Read about it at the bottom of the very first post in this thread.  Perhaps maxmercy can chime in, but I don't think that filtering actually reduces clipping or prevents it.  Most movies are significantly below clipping when looking at their levels and waveforms.

 

The current methodology here creates an apples-to-apples comparison that first determined a maximum level of the disc (128dB), and compares everything against that, so that we have a real ranking: repeatable and comparable.  The dynamics score simply takes the difference from the overall peak and total RMS scores of the disc.  I feel like this, coupled with the PvA graphs, is more than enough to predict when a movie will be loud.  I don't feel like the ELCs really help anything, especially since their measurements have been so inconsistent over the years.

 

I'll take a look at the recording you mentioned in the near future, and post back with my findings.  Thanks!  :)

 

Nicke:  I haven't, mostly because it's not on BR and I'm not sure Netflix has an appropriately-mixed version of the DVD.



#2276 maxmercy

maxmercy

    Super Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 1,833 posts
  • LocationNW FL

Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:58 AM

Speaking of the 20-30 hz impact, do you think an alternative rating system (still measured and scientifc) could be used to generate another list of "Best impact bass movies" or something along those lines.  A rating system that ignores extension below maybe 12 hz, and focuses a bit more on execution and level?  I'm not sure what to do for rating dynamics, I find that they aren't much of a factor if a movie's bass sounds good to me or not.  Maybe even reverse the "star" rating of dynamics, as I actually prefer low dynamic bass.

 

Waaaay too much 'left to interpretation' in the phrase 'Best Impact movies'.  Sooo much of what people perceive as 'impact' has more to do with your particular room, furniture and body resonances to simply say one particular freq range is 'impact'.  The way we do it, you can look at a PvA graph, look at the stats, and by experience (and knowing your room), you can tell pretty quickly whether or not a film will rock your world.  If you go back and read through the thread, you will read about all of us discussing very similar things, with trial and error until the current system was put into place.

 

   

I think what's needed is to weight the response using equal loudness contours (ELCs) to assess how subjectively loud it sounds. Dynamics could be determined using a ratio of the max ELC-weighted response over short-times vs. ELC-weighted long-time response. There's still the question of how long of a window to use for the short-time average. It might be helpful to use a few window sizes with different filters (i.e., low-pass with lower cut-off for longer window) to give fair weighting to the ULF.

 

You are more than welcome to re-measure over 100 films in your spare time with different FFT settings.  But the current system was not decided upon on a whim.  One of the things that always bothered me about the FFT and PvA graphs is that neither tells the whole story.  But adding in the overall peak, RMS peak, and Dynamics numbers helps round out what the PvA cannot tell you.  Nearly every film I have measured has a full-range PvA that drops at 3dB/octave or more above 100Hz with few exceptions.  That's why we use full-range data for Peak, RMS Peak and Dynamics numbers, as they are already hevily bass-weighted.

The tricky part is knowing the proper reference volume for each track. In my mind, that's a more fundamental issue since I'm fairly certain many highly-rated (and some not so highly-rated) bass Blu-rays were mixed with monitoring at lower levels, so that theatrical reference is too loud. For example, Star Trek sounds to me like it was mixed at or very near theatrical reference; whereas, STID sounds like it got mixed closer to -10 (and clipped to death in the process of giving up 10 dB headroom). If this difference in reference volumes were taken into account, STID would end up with an even lower rating!

 

This is very tricky, ATSC has a system in place for determining reference level depending on the size of the room and the amount of acoustic treatment.  Tomlinson Holman posted on AVS that in smaller mix rooms, Reference level is 81dB as it 'matches' with 85dB reference in a larger room.  This is something we are likely never to know.  If an action film has >30dB dynamics, and 4 or 5 Star Level, then I am reasonably sure that it is the theatrical mix.  

Sad to say, we may never know the correct reference levels for a variety of Blu-ray releases. The best we could try to do is guess by doing some kind of analysis against the dialog. From what I've read out there, both -3 and -6 are common monitor level choices for DVD and Blu-ray mixes. From what I hear (subjective interpretation) listening to media some other recent releases were likely mixed at or near -10 dB. I think Looper may also have been mixed closer to -10. This is a big deal, because if Looper were played back at -10, the deep bass wouldn't be anywhere near as loud subjectively, and it sounds more like a movie with 3 stars extension than one with 5.

I'd sure appreciate it if the studio would print the reference level somewhere on the box or at least populate the appropriate metadata like Dialnorm properly. Anyone remember the VHS days when they added the disclaimer at the start of the film: "this film has been modified to fit your TV screen"? I think they should be obligated to add a similar notice whenever they do a separate mix for Blu-ray. It's rather disingenuous in my view to claim that the a lossless "DTS-HD" or "Dolby TrueHD" track is "bit-by-bit" identical with the theatrical master as some of the early Blu-ray advertising implied. Really, I wish they'd just ship the theatrical mixes in the lossless formats and do the "made for the home" mixes with reduced dynamics in lossy Dolby Digital or DTS. My experience has been that the differences between a good lossy codec and the lossless original are most apparent with tracks having very high dynamic headroom.

 

Agreed.  I wish we could get the theatrical mix, as well as the kid's table mix with the theatrical mix being lossless.

Also, I'd hazard a guess that it is in the process of creating the "made for the home" mixes where a lot of clipping as well as high-pass/high-shelf filtering tends to happen. In many instances the filtering we frequently observe may have been added in that mix process to reduce or prevent clipping.

 

Clipping is a complex subject.  It can happen anywhere in the production chain, and sometimes on purpose.  Most films that are clipped are done so at -1 or -2dBFS, which means that it is more likely a brick-wall limiter was used.  High-passing and shelving allows you to avoid clipping, not add to it.  See Avengers.  Shelved to avoid clipping, as many other films are.

 

 

By the way, now that I'm thinking about it, I have media to submit for measurement. I think this should have no trouble claiming 5 stars all the way around: http://www.digido.co...e-lift-off.html


This is a live recording of a NASA Space Shuttle launch at 3 miles away. Be sure to download the 5.1 channel 24-bit 96kHz FLAC version. Note that the correct playback level is +7 relative to theatrical reference! The recording is 4 channel (front-left, front-right, surround-left, surround-right). The 5.1 channel FLAC contains silence for the LFE and center channels. According to Bob Katz, this thing has 119 dB at 25 Hz and 116 dB at 16 Hz and below.

On my system with multiple 16 Hz ported Hsu subs (capable of producing clean and audible bass to 12 Hz in-room), I can typically hear and appreciate the difference between 3 and 4 stars extension. While this recording sounds incredible on the system, I have no doubt my system doesn't even begin to do it justice. Those of you with walls of woofers or rotaries will likely be very pleased.

 

I will have to check this track out.  Do you know if the mic clipped at all in this recording?

 

JSS



#2277 maxmercy

maxmercy

    Super Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 1,833 posts
  • LocationNW FL

Posted 24 August 2014 - 03:01 AM

Other recordings of interest, thanks to bwaslo:

 

http://www.diysoundg...php?topic=389.0

 

JSS


  • MemX likes this

#2278 maxmercy

maxmercy

    Super Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 1,833 posts
  • LocationNW FL

Posted 24 August 2014 - 03:01 AM

I haven't measured anything in a while....I have been busy upgrading the HT....

 

JSS



#2279 Bassment

Bassment

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 24 August 2014 - 04:16 AM

So maxmercy and nube, are the 5 star movies both of your top 5 movies for bass subjectively?  I'm loud and flat to 10 hz but I don't think I'd put any of those 5 in my top 5.  Star trek maybe.  The plane crash scene in Fotp is one of my favorite scenes though.

 

I agree there's more to it like room and resonance, and I put "bass impact movies" in quotations because it wouldn't necessarily be that.

 

I guess what I'm sort of thinking of is a measured system of how much total bass is in movies.  Something that would factor in length of the bass scenes and total amount of bass scenes in a movie



#2280 maxmercy

maxmercy

    Super Bass Overlord

  • Moderators
  • 1,833 posts
  • LocationNW FL

Posted 24 August 2014 - 05:23 AM

Not even close. My top bass films have to be watch-able, and more importantly, re-watch-able. In other words, it has to be a good film, or a bad film with over-the-top visuals and sound to make up for it.

I can't order them, but my top bass films (right now):

TIH - best overall bass film, IMO. It is almost too much, dynamics suffer.
TF2 - best use of above 20Hz effects, tremendous slam, even more than TF1.
Scott Pilgrim - no faults except nothing below 16Hz
Rush - great film, soundtrack was perfect for imagery
Attack the Block - surprising low end
Battle:LA - another bass assault, like TIH.
9 - hard to beat in any regard
Dredd - sleeper film, great sound, tremendous visuals, could have used a better bad-guy cast, but true to the comics
Star Trek - warp booms.....engage.
HTTYD - if your system can do this justice, there is no need to upgrade, EVER, except for TF1 where Megatron blasts Jazz
Thor - best mid-bass slam in last 3 years in my room.

They each have something they bring, bass-wise. No film is perfect.

This data-bass is an objective compilation, with only 25% subjectivity.

The phrase 'how much total bass' is so broad it has to be delineated much more fully. The easiest way to see if a film has more 'total bass', is simply to take the area under the curve of the Avg graph for every film and whichever one is biggest wins, factoring in film length.

Otherwise, it's just all the opinions thrown out at AVS.

You cannot imagine how much resonances affect the list above, or any review anyone posts. One person's 'best' can easily be another's 'meh' because of it.

JSS




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users