Bossobass Dave Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 OK thanks Bosso. I figured if all the subwoofers were the same then the signal and EQ should be the same. BUT when eqing different size subwoofers I wasnt too sure on that. Although I could adjust levels and be fine. Wont know for some time but trying to get my ducks in a row is all. I see you also have a Stewart amp.lol I had one of those also when I had my bass setup in the US before I moved. Accugrove cabinets, a pair of Stewart amps and my Demeter pre was one setup I enjoyed for a while. Then of coarse I changed it out for a few other options. Someday I need to get back into playing bass guitar. Yep, when you get more specific with the 'different subs', we'll be more able to answer the question. Bass players are a rare breed. I had a friend who used to have lots of folks over to his house 2 or 3 times a year. Drums, amps, mics, etc., were all set up. In the summer, it was in his awesome back yard and in the winter, around this time of year as a matter of fact, it was indoors. Paul and I used to go there and wail some hits. It was the best time. Sadly, he passed away suddenly at a very young age. I miss him and I definitely miss the jam sessions with musicians of all kinds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Sad to hear Bosso. I miss having jazz improv sessions with friends. Thats been about 15 years now since the last one. I havent picked up a bass guitar in about 5 years or so. I had to pick one hobby and HT wins for now. Sold everything I had to help me buy some HT equipment. BUT no worries because I do know exactly what I want when I get back into it. Bari sax, true 8 string bass and nice drum setup. ANd then I will just build the PA setup. Someday...... Anyways as usual thanks. For subs I am only looking at either 11hst's or 12hst's for the towers. So that would be a single sub per tower cabinet. But anyways. I forgot to ask also, can the front grilles on your A14K be taken out? I ask because I thought a white powder coat would look awesome against the all black case. Or a white case and black grille. Just dreaming here and thinking out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Movie viewing at reference or near reference levels, which is assumed when the owner of the HT space is considering a 14,000 watt amplifier to power his subwoofer system alone, makes fan noise irrelevant. Fan noise is relevant even if the playback is reference level in at least some cases. The important question is how much noise is ok? The answer depends on a lot of things, including the content. Room reflections also tend to smear out low level details, so it should not be surprising that noise floor becomes more relevant with room treatments installed. As I said, I noticed the effect of the noise floor a lot more after I installed treatments. This is despite the fact that the HVAC noise is actually quieter at the MLP because of the absorption. It's just that the treatments help me to hear *everything* better, including the noise floor and as it turns out, weaknesses in my current speakers. If I listen critically to MC SACD (I don't listen to 2 channel CDs at all, ever), I also listen at average levels of around 90dB with 100dB plus peaks. The only time fan noise is an issue is if I want to ride the end of a tune that happens to have a very slow fade to 0dB. Of course, in that case, any fan noise will override the music at some point in the fade to zero. Why not 2 channel CDs? I mean, MC SACD is great if you can find the title you like, but I love music way too much to confine my listening to such a short roster. And in any case, CDs offer superb sound quality. Its dynamic range is more than sufficient for just about any content, provided that the production is done skillfully. The poor sound quality on so many CD titles has nothing to do with the capabilities of the media and everything to do with the abuse of the format, both on purpose as in the loudness war and by accident due to incompetence on the part of so many "engineers" who misunderstand the format. Its greatest weakness is that it only offers two channels of sound, yet two channels can still convey an experience almost as immersive as 5 channels, at least for a listener sitting in the sweet spot as you describe. In my current setup, "surround sound" works quite well with 2 channel content on front-left + front-right speakers, even for off-axis listeners. In the sweet spot, I routinely hear convincing phantom images of sound from my "surround" speakers (as well as other locations outside the front stage) with 2 speakers playing. Content choice plays a big role here, and I am a fan of a lot of ambient music and whatnot that's not the least bit "surround" shy. I have one song with a synthesizer that pans from the left speaker around the rear to the right speaker and then back through the rear to the left speaker, over and over again. The effect worked pretty well with Dolby PL2x, but I never really heard it right in plain stereo mode until I added my room treatments. Edit: Just to repeat a previous point. The insidious thing about the noise floor is that you don't have to hear the noise for it to interfere with your listening. And when this happens, you won't know what you're missing unless you listen to it again without the interfering noise. And you must do this within the threshold of your auditory memory. This summer was my first summer with room treatments, and I was astounded by how much detail I lost with the HVAC running. But after a couple of weeks, it stopped bothering me because my auditory memory largely adapted. I think you are right that an NC-15 room doesn't buy much for HT, but I think noise level is still worth considering in a high end system. That may extend to projector noise too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlah384 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Bossobass, what's your thoughts on the 20000q clone? Have you had a chance to test/play with a 20000q clone? Or have you entertained the idea of selling the 20000q? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Bossobass, what's your thoughts on the 20000q clone? Have you had a chance to test/play with a 20000q clone? Or have you entertained the idea of selling the 20000q? No, we won't be offering it. We looked at 3 versions of the so-called 20000Q. It doesn't give 20KW and may or may not last more than 10 seconds depending on what source and system it sits between. Zero out of 3 ain't good. But hey, it seems that Rob Mosher is the guy to ask about that sort of stuff. He claims to be able to deliver one for half the price from the Top One Chinese agent. He still apparently recommends Sanway for clones, so maybe ping JT and ask him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 They indirectly note that they are not quiet by suggesting "for remote installation". I'd be surprised if Dave and Paul couldn't change them but maybe it's for the best for proper cooling. I don't know but I know the clones have loud fans stock. IRT the clones, the a-14k is a fair amount more quiet than they are. Also more quiet than the peavey and crest right out of the box, or some ipukes that I've heard as well. I am going to give mine a shot in rack for a little while as I just haven't had the time to expand my rack closet to accommodate another "Amp rack" that would be out of sight from the room. It makes sense, since I am totally out of space now and have several things like my xbox 360 that I would like to get back to the main rack, on the HT side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted December 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Paul and I just tested a pair of 14000 watt amps from China. They look nice and cost less. They sported low speed, temperature triggered fans, almost silent with low output. In 4 ohms bridged they lasted less than one scene (beach scene from X-Men FC) before going into over temp protect and one of them failed catastrophically immediately thereupon. The fans just couldn't catch up with the rapid rise in heat of the output transistors in time. Single digits, +10dB L/T boost and lots of current. There's no cheap version of amp that can deal with that. As I said earlier, even if the protection circuitry kept the amp alive, what good is the amp that needs constant protection during movie playback? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Fan noise is relevant even if the playback is reference level in at least some cases. The important question is how much noise is ok? The answer depends on a lot of things, including the content. Room reflections also tend to smear out low level details, so it should not be surprising that noise floor becomes more relevant with room treatments installed. As I said, I noticed the effect of the noise floor a lot more after I installed treatments. This is despite the fact that the HVAC noise is actually quieter at the MLP because of the absorption. It's just that the treatments help me to hear *everything* better, including the noise floor and as it turns out, weaknesses in my current speakers. You must have one noisy HVAC system. I have no HVAC in my room, below grade basement(no walkout), for soundproofing reasons and because even when its 90+ and humid outside I have a cool room and occasionally need a fan on, and for winter I use a gas fireplace. I've never been in a room as quiet as mine yet. I do have a noisy projector though which I cannot imagine any HVAC system being louder as it is overhead about 5-6ft away and Epson's are some of the loudest. Having said that at ANY point in a movie where it's not just dialogue, and for the most part even when it is, I can *never* hear my pj which is a good bit louder than the fans on the 14K. So unless you're running sweeps showing your system is flat to 5hz at 60db the noise floor shouldn't matter and if it does as you say then I can 100% say without a doubt you would NOT hear the fans in the 14K anyway. Of course I say this as someone who's actually heard one in a room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Was this tested with a calibrated EW M50, and using REW in a anechoic chamber for your fan noise comparison? Hmm Hmm Hmm J/K couldnt help but be a smart ass. LOL From what Beast said earlier and from what I have gathered I will be just fine with the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Even better I asked my wife. She holds nothing back. Yah you'll be fine man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Of course I say this as someone who's actually heard one in a room. Nah man. Not definitive enough. Period. Go out there and get some REAL real world stuff we can chew on. As "The One" Lebron James always says, "It didn't happen unless you have a graph to prove it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Well I do have the klippel results if you guys wanna em. I'm klippel certified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 Paul and I just tested a pair of 14000 watt amps from China. They look nice and cost less. They sported low speed, temperature triggered fans, almost silent with low output. In 4 ohms bridged they lasted less than one scene (beach scene from X-Men FC) before going into over temp protect and one of them failed catastrophically immediately thereupon. The fans just couldn't catch up with the rapid rise in heat of the output transistors in time. Single digits, +10dB L/T boost and lots of current. There's no cheap version of amp that can deal with that. As I said earlier, even if the protection circuitry kept the amp alive, what good is the amp that needs constant protection during movie playback? Ever try watercooling an amplifier? There are tons of kits and components for computers out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted December 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 Ever try watercooling an amplifier? There are tons of kits and components for computers out there. We can't get you off yer arse to upgrade from the Berry stuff, how the hell we gonna get you to pont up for a water-cooled amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 LOL I think if I wanted to try water cooling I would first attempt putting the amp in a 5/6RU case and larger fans. Then see how I go and then try water cooling. BUT this seems like a lot of expense for being silent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 LOL I think if I wanted to try water cooling I would first attempt putting the amp in a 5/6RU case and larger fans. Then see how I go and then try water cooling. BUT this seems like a lot of expense for being silent. Still not silent lol... Fans would still be needed unless you use a MASSIVE raditor which is possible. I'd like your idea of larger case with bigger fans spinning slower maybe w a fan controller. I have seen an inuke modded w a 200mm fan on the top of the case to draw air out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 I have had some computers cases with 240mm fans and they are silent for me. I would also just place a loud amp in a server rack cabinet I made with large inlet and exhaust fans. Done this in the past with one of my old server cases and it worked well. Was extremely loud before I built the case. But anyways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 You must have one noisy HVAC system. I have no HVAC in my room, below grade basement(no walkout), for soundproofing reasons and because even when its 90+ and humid outside I have a cool room and occasionally need a fan on, and for winter I use a gas fireplace. I've never been in a room as quiet as mine yet. I do have a noisy projector though which I cannot imagine any HVAC system being louder as it is overhead about 5-6ft away and Epson's are some of the loudest. Having said that at ANY point in a movie where it's not just dialogue, and for the most part even when it is, I can *never* hear my pj which is a good bit louder than the fans on the 14K. So unless you're running sweeps showing your system is flat to 5hz at 60db the noise floor shouldn't matter and if it does as you say then I can 100% say without a doubt you would NOT hear the fans in the 14K anyway. Of course I say this as someone who's actually heard one in a room. Your basement space probably has a very nice low noise floor. Hopefully you don't have a lot of heavy traffic near your house, as the bass will tend to pass through your basement walls and interfere with your perception of low level bass. Other than that and your projector noise, you're probably in pretty good shape. I would say my HVAC noise level is fairly average. It's not especially quiet but could be a lot worse than it is. Another thing about noise floor is that the severity of the issue depends on a whole lot more than SPL. The spectrum of the noise is very important. A broadband noise is likely to be worse than a narrow band noise even though the narrow band noise will tend to be more annoying. At least the narrow band noise won't cause as much masking, and it's easier for your brain to separate it from the signal. Broadband noise, especially if there is more bass present, causes masking across the spectrum. It creates a lower bound below which signal just isn't heard anymore. It's effectively a hard limit on your system's dynamic range. To be fair, noise floor is a relatively minor issue for most of us. There are certainly extreme cases. The last place I lived in was near a busy street. On a good day, I measured it's noise floor at 50-60 dB, and it would readily spike to 80 dB or more as louder vehicles like motor cycles passed by, even with the double-paned windows closed. I have friends that live in areas with high street noise or high urban noise. In these scenarios, one could struggle to hear quieter dialog entirely, even with a track played at reference level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 My basement does have a low noise floor but with the pj running it isn't quiet. 3D is even worse and you barely hear it on movies and I don't watch every movie at ref. That why Dave said it wasn't relevant. If you're listening at or near ref, noise floor or amps spooling up and running won't be much of a concern for 99% of people. I doubt anyone would be able to notice that in any scenario unless the amps were right behind your head. At least as far as the 14K is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWCgrad Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 Ever try watercooling an amplifier? There are tons of kits and components for computers out there. It would probably be easier - and more effective - to completely submerge the amp in 100% pure mineral oil. I saw this in a research laboratory for keeping high end blade servers cool, was pretty awesome to watch functional electronics completely submerged in clear liquid. They used a swimming pool pump to circulate the oil for effective heat exchange. Only mod they had to do was replace some of the adhesives used to hold parts on the pc board, over time mineral oil will dissolve some adhesives. A submerged amp rack would look pretty cool. The mineral oil also keeps vibrations from shortening the life of components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlah384 Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 On the cooling issue, I used to overclocked CPU's a lot back in the 90's and early 2000's. Before water cooling was around, we found that the best way to air cool a computer case was to have it pressurized with more air coming in than was being "pulled" out. So we had more fans pushing air in to the case and fewer fans sucking the air out. We tried it both ways but the cases that were pressurized with air always had lower core CPU temps as well as internal case temps. I'm not sure if the same thing would work for an amp or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 We can't get you off yer arse to upgrade from the Berry stuff, how the hell we gonna get you to pont up for a water-cooled amp? But I want you to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 It would probably be easier - and more effective - to completely submerge the amp in 100% pure mineral oil. I saw this in a research laboratory for keeping high end blade servers cool, was pretty awesome to watch functional electronics completely submerged in clear liquid. They used a swimming pool pump to circulate the oil for effective heat exchange. Only mod they had to do was replace some of the adhesives used to hold parts on the pc board, over time mineral oil will dissolve some adhesives. A submerged amp rack would look pretty cool. The mineral oil also keeps vibrations from shortening the life of components. Yeah, I saw a test like that with some computer(s). Sounded interesting but I don't agree that it would be easier or more practical than an AIO watercooling system for an amplifier. Not that I know that really but it just seems more realistic to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted December 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 My basement does have a low noise floor but with the pj running it isn't quiet. 3D is even worse and you barely hear it on movies and I don't watch every movie at ref. That why Dave said it wasn't relevant. If you're listening at or near ref, noise floor or amps spooling up and running won't be much of a concern for 99% of people. I doubt anyone would be able to notice that in any scenario unless the amps were right behind your head. At least as far as the 14K is concerned. I never heard the projector fan during our actual movie watching at your place. It certainly didn't affect the experience for me at all. BTW, I'll say it again, Adam's HT is superb. Huge screen, great PQ, clean surrounds and thunderous, full bandwidth bass. Paul and I fussed over the amplifier fan noise issue years ago and we lost several amplifiers in the process to rapid increases in transistor heat. Recently, as I mentioned earlier, we tested 2 amps with near-silent fans that are supposed to ramp up with increase in heat. They did ramp up alright, but the damage was already done. This would mean that more $$ needs to be poured into components but then the market shrinks fast, so the typical solution is to say the amp is not 2 ohm stable. Of all the possible solutions, we like the larger case, larger, slower fan solution. Problem there is obvious... the amp would have to be unrestricted from above. No stacking on top. Honestly, since then we just ignore fan noise. If it's a problem that the end user can't solve by isolation, we then conclude we have the wrong end user and suggest he move on to a different solution than what we offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madaeel Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 I will say I wish I did keep the 14K in the room in an open, but custom, cabinet. As hot as I run it would be nice to see the VPL's. I always check the movie here first for level and extension anyway, but it would be nice to not have to get up, open the door, and then turn my neck 180 degrees to see the VPL's. Once I get another processor that has less roll-off below 10hz I'll have to be even more careful. I HATE that word. Time for another system 3. Though the nice thing is in the closet there's no walls or insulation so the amp is in the cold for 6 months and so are the rest of my electronics. I think that weekend was my favorite because that was the only weekend that Jazzy let me let the Raptors loose for the entire weekend. One or two movies a weekend no problem. But TIH, 9, WotW etc on repeat for two days is a divorce waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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