atltx Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 I have been looking for something that can minimize crossover complexity for my first speaker build. It has to be a 2 way. There are some good compression drivers that go down to 500hz and maybe a little lower. The TAD TD-4002 is too expensive to play with. The Celestion Axi2050 can hit 225 to 300hz with a little harmonic distortion for a third of the price. I don't know where I will find a K402 horn set. Patience will hopefully pay off. My Aurasound NS18's are sitting a few feet away; they will take care of the bottom end. Patience worked while looking for them. I've seen a few mentions on this forum for the K402's. Any chance somebody can help me find a set? I'm thinking this setup will do better than the JBL M2 system I have wanted. I'll try an Acoustic Elegance bottom end as well. I plan on learning the hard way. Reference: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/199267-celestion-axi2050-2-compression-driver-on-k-402-horn-and-jubilee-bass-bin/ Sorry Ricci...just noticed you already did what I finally discovered. Maybe that is a good thing. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipman725 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 If you have a lot of money you can purchase the K402 from Klipsch as a cinema replacement part with a driver attached. The K402 isn't actually that fancy a horn though its basically a huge conical horn with a mouth flare. A dual slope conic that is typically used in unity horn designs of the same size will approximate its behavior. This a spreadsheet that can design a horn for you: http://www.libinst.com/SynergyCalc/Synergy Calc V5.pdf This person built a more complex replica incorporating the mouth flare: https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/232459-klipsch-k402-replica-build/ I've been designing mid-range horns recently and would caution though that conic horns like the K402 do not provide good loading to throat mounted compression drivers low in frequency compared to there size. This may mean that it might not sound nice crossing at 300Hz, although the AXI2050 has huge surface area compared to a typical comp and may be OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipman725 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 Also Klipsch are building a very similar speaker as there new flagship: The lense that they add to the AXI2050 looks interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 Yes I've been running these on K-402's for a couple of years. I have a ton of measurements that I planned to post but never got around to. Eventually. Long story short...None of the CD's really want to be playing down that low. They may claim 500Hz but even on a very large horn that loads decently they get nasty with any real volume. The 2050's are better than any others I'm aware of. I settled on a 370Hz Xo with mine. The distortion rises precipitously below 350Hz. They may be fine down to 300Hz in a home with 0.25 volt drive levels, but for any real use with loud playback I'd recommend no lower than 370Hz with a 3rd order filter and that's on a BIG horn like a 402 or a 2360A. For work in a pro setting in a huge venue I'd consider 500Hz the minimum with 600Hz being better/safer. None of the other CD's on the market (Except for some of the exotic dual diaphragm mid units) want anything to do with that low of a crossover in a pro use scenario, no matter what the spec sheet says. If your use is at home with flea powered amps and much more subdued playback levels you can get away with a much lower Xo. The Axi2050 provides roughly a half octave better low end extension and lower distortion when driven that low than most 4" vc 2" cd's. The top end is decent but they weren't able to totally defeat physics. Smaller, lighter diaphragm CD's will have better sensitivity, distortion and output >10kHz. The 2050 sounds fine up there but it does give up something. That's the tradeoff. I'm far more concerned with SQ in the 400-10Khz area than I am with >10kHz so it works for me. Sounds killer in the midrange. I put 22.5 volts through them during distortion testing. Wore ear plugs and shooting muffs. I am not in a hurry to do that again. It's weird when you can sense/feel the pressure from treble! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 I do like the 402 a lot. They aren't cheap if buying new. Mine were 2nd hand and have some wear and tear. Still expensive. Think it was about $1200 for the pair after shipping from Cali. Doesn't bother me because they are in an ugly warehouse room anyway. Sounds better to me than the 2360A's. The 2360A's do load the low end better / deeper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipman725 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 Hi @Ricci have you tried any horns with exponential throat sections with these mid-range drivers? my understanding is that any horn which doesn't have collapsing HF directivity (conic or OS) will have poor loading at low frequency which (I hope) is what makes them sound bad when run low. I am planning a horn that is used in PA down to 400Hz but it only needs to get to 4kHz so I am basically designing a CE horn (using M200 drivers): http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele (1975-05 AES Preprint) - Whats So Sacred Exp Horns.pdf There are some nice loading graphs on page two of this: https://www.grc.com/acoustics/An-Introduction-to-Horn-Theory.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 I've not...I will say that the 2360A goes deeper than the K402 in practice. It legit seems to be able to provide loading / gain down to 170 or 180Hz. It needs an 8" mid shoehorned onto it really, but then the throat distortion is going to get boosted. The K-402 technically loads to a very low frequency too but it doesn't provide much useful gain at those deep freq's. The horn does play a big role. With that said. Even on the giant 2360A the Axi2050 still runs out of gas due to diaphragm displacement limitations near 300Hz. This isn't really seen until absurd output levels with more than 10 volts applied = REAL LOUD, so technically you could get away with a 300Hz Xo on that horn in most cases. Still it cleans up considerably just crossing at 400Hz on that horn and keeping the diaphragm excursion under control. Moral of the story is even after the best sims and thought put into it, test the combo and see what you've actually got. Note: The Axi2050 is quite durable. 🤪 I do wonder how good the Celestion horn for these are, but I'm not dropping that amount of money to find out. The B&C horn for the DCX462 / DCX50 also is interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atltx Posted September 18, 2021 Author Share Posted September 18, 2021 Thanks for the link to those instructions for the horn spreadsheet and project build. That was some very good reading. I may have blinked 3 times while going through it all. The info will be put to use eventually. Did some googling for saws and other tools to make it happen. My metabo gear won't cut it. Might just take some nausea medicine while saving up for the new components and skip the work for now. The new Jubilee is the reason why I chose the driver. Hope, Arkansas is an hour away from me. My local Klipsch dealer has some old stuff that is very interesting. I've only been able to find new K402's as of today. $2500 for paired horns, drivers and stands. No bare lens option without serial numbers from a pair of Jubilee's. Big Red Horn (black) from Celestion as a pair is about the same price. Used for half price will be hard to find I'm guessing. Flea power for the horns is the plan for home use. First Watt F7/8 looks nice. Bottlehead too. A headphone amp maybe to not spend a lot of money? I really do need less than a watt. 370 to 400hz cutoff will be tried after the appreciated recommendation. Outdoors? Whatever doesn't make me deaf. 600hz and up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atltx Posted September 18, 2021 Author Share Posted September 18, 2021 Ran across this while doing research. If I can build this horn... https://userweb.117.ne.jp/y-s/F280A-e.html Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atltx Posted September 19, 2021 Author Share Posted September 19, 2021 Amp ideas from the google machine... http://www.pmillett.com/300B_FB_amp.html http://www.audiodesignguide.com/SE300B/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 Graph above shows THD at various voltages. Starting level = 2.83 volts Ending level = 22.5 volts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atltx Posted September 27, 2021 Author Share Posted September 27, 2021 The K402 is hard to find used. Hoping the Celestion designed unit will equal what the graph shows. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atltx Posted October 12, 2021 Author Share Posted October 12, 2021 Some things happen for a reason I guess. Lean-business.co.uk has sold out of the handmade horn. Definitely need to relax my mind with a challenge and make the best use of my dollar. I'm about to ask for a lot of help. Can somebody please post a list of recommended equipment needed to make horns. Example: What type of table saw works best? What other tools would be a best purchase? I'm pretty good with fixing stuff and will figure this out. Not afraid to try. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peniku8 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 3 hours ago, atltx said: Some things happen for a reason I guess. Lean-business.co.uk has sold out of the handmade horn. Definitely need to relax my mind with a challenge and make the best use of my dollar. I'm about to ask for a lot of help. Can somebody please post a list of recommended equipment needed to make horns. Example: What type of table saw works best? What other tools would be a best purchase? I'm pretty good with fixing stuff and will figure this out. Not afraid to try. Thank you Tbh I'd personally buy a large enough 3D printer. I have all kinds of equipment, which includes a CNC router, but even then, making horns is something I'd find cumbersome to do. Doing it on the CNC would require doing it in something like 1" slices. Doing it by hand with something like a large Dremel... inaccurate and really tideous work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atltx Posted October 12, 2021 Author Share Posted October 12, 2021 I've been looking at 3d printers for a few hours. Large format has come a long way since I did any research. You can print in copper these days too. Need to figure out if either a tractor with cab and attachments are really what I want or if making would keep me satisfied. I miss Tinkermill in Colorado. They would literally teach the know how and help you build a rocket. Didn't get to sink my teeth in after joining. Will keep researching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 An FDM machine with a large enough frame to do a 40x25" horn is going to cost a bit. I guess you could print in multiple pieces and assemble but the discontinuities in the horn will affect the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atltx Posted November 5, 2021 Author Share Posted November 5, 2021 I've been looking at FDM machines for a while now. 1000x1000x1000 is the goal. There are some diy machine plans out there that can result in good prints for less that $3,000. Otherwise, $10,000 is the price of admission for a production quality kit/machine. A good used ford cab tractor with an added roof or window ac/heat unit should cost about the same. It will need a lot of restoration effort. The FDM machine would help with parts. I'm also looking for a non rusted 1968 (67 - 71 period) ford truck body. Again, the 3d printer would help with parts. Something tells me there will be a lot of random stuff arriving over the winter. Not buying finished speakers anymore. Kef will do for sitting in front of a monitor while shopping. You fine folks taught me way too much about how not to spend money while hobbying. Will update when something is being made. Making soothes the soul. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peniku8 Posted December 18, 2021 Share Posted December 18, 2021 Have you looked into importing a Chinese machine? You can probably find users of many machines sold there in some forums to see how they actually compare. I'm probably gonna import a CNC router soon(ish?). https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Allcct-big-3d-printer-1000mm-3d_1600339853783.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camplo Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 On 10/12/2021 at 9:06 AM, peniku8 said: Tbh I'd personally buy a large enough 3D printer. I have all kinds of equipment, which includes a CNC router, but even then, making horns is something I'd find cumbersome to do. Doing it on the CNC would require doing it in something like 1" slices. Doing it by hand with something like a large Dremel... inaccurate and really tideous work... why wouldn't you choose a wood router over 3d printing? wood is an excellent material to create a thick non vibrating horn. If aiming for a large horn, I would think a large cnc router would make the most sense...Take model, slice into layers, route, glue together. Its how the shops make horns out of wood normally...because it works... Have yet to see a large 3d printed horn. Not saying it can't be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 It could be done with a large enough printer. The issue is most printers in the hands of DIYers don't have nearly enough build area to do even medium sized horns without going to multiple pieces. The quality could be done quite well with the right setup and materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7mbr4 Posted May 18, 2023 Share Posted May 18, 2023 On 2/2/2022 at 7:37 AM, Camplo said: Have yet to see a large 3d printed horn. Not saying it can't be done. Test Bench: B&C Speakers DCX464 High Power Coaxial Compression Driver and Horn | audioXpress Here's one, ~23.5” × 17.5”, loading down to 300hz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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