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SI 4" coil DS4-18 info and discussion

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Like I always say...

 

ALLLLLLLL YOURRRRRR FAULLLLLLLLLLLT!!!

 

BTW, as an aside to the DIYSG showthread:

 

As always, I thoroughly enjoyed myself at your very cool abode in them thar hills above beautiful downtown Asheville, NC, my friend. I love the sound in your HT space. The low end is excruciatingly powerful @ +15dBRL, although I prefer a flat-to-+6dBRL. The guest list was a pleasure to be around and engage with, the food and libation were top shelf and it's one of my favorite things to check out a half-sloshed Rowdy Roddy Piper say stuff like "Go ahead, Dave... crank it. It's only a chopper scene. No sweat."

 

 

Thanks for the kind words Dave! A pleasure as always to have you and Paul up. I'm down anytime my man! We'll run at (ONLY) +6 next time you are up this way. It's still good fun and still very powerful, especially now thanks to the -V :D

 

Half Sloshed? By then I think I was a little past the halfway point :D

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I'm going to start a new thread to continue to discuss some of the points made in this thread. If for nothing else than the fact that I've been saying I would for a while.  

 

A few non technical comments for you DSG.

 

Yes there was a lot of Klippel banter thrown back and forth in a funny manner. There was one post by Scott referencing you about how you'd never live it down. (Prior to Endershadows comment which basically were a straight out provocation. Ill advised too.) Yes you could say that those are pokes at you. However here is the reality. Even if you are technically correct and many agree you have a point and have made your point. You have doggedly persisted in what seems like any thread where SI is mentioned to the point that yes it is now a joke. Think about that. A lot of guys now joke with each other about Klippeling my new air compressor or whatever. Yes I do it too. It's funny. It's gotten to the point it doesn't have to even do with you personally it has taken on a life of its own. Like I said it's funny. It's been going on for so long that it now is in the lexicon of audio gangsta slang as meaning... "Klippel: see Analysis paralysis. The over evaluation of a product and/or demand for micro-verification of performance, materials and engineering on a scope that has little to do with the devices performance at the assigned task."

 

What I'm saying is by now most have to have read your posts and points on this a few times. No one wants to be beat over the head repeatedly with the same information no matter what it is. It gets old. It becomes something humorous after a while. It becomes hard to take it serious regardless of how valid the argument is. That's where a lot of people are with it. The other issue is the drivers have been tested here and shown to perform well. A ton of guys happily use them and they perform well for them. It's sort of a issue where you seem to be telling people their drivers are not good performers or don't work as advertised when they've been using them hands on for a long time. As far as I know Nick is leaving the whole Klippel thing in the past and hasn't said anything about that in a long time. You've made your points a number of times in multiple forums. IMHO you've spent way too much energy on SI and the Klippel claims. How many hours have you spent putting together some of those posts? You've said your piece on it. What's the point? Yes people are poking fun at your posts but that's a natural backlash to having something crammed down their throat repeatedly. It will only get worse if you continue regardless of how technically sound your argument is. That's how I see it. Nothing personal. I think you are a smart guy but I think you should evaluate the energy taken by it and how it makes people react to you whether right or wrong. Unfortunately no matter what you do the whole "Klippel'd my dog" last week types of posts are probably going to continue.

 

Forum policy...I guess I assume we had one. I've never read it I don't think. The real thing here is that this isn't a forum which will have a lot of moderation or policy enforcing. We have no advertisers. We don't make money. We only have a few guys who volunteer their limited time. The number of posters here is small. My time is limited and forum policing is just not on my priority list. Removing spammers and the like is bigger priority and I do very little of that even. I will remove some things or step in if something gets truly nasty and someone asks me to but for the most part I like to assume everyone is wearing their big boy pants here and can handle a little vulgarity and the occasional shit talking to each other. I am usually reading the forum in the 5-10min I have on my phone while at a stop light, eating lunch or whatever. I wanted to clarify just in case anyone reading thought we actual have a REAL mod team and infractions system here. Enter and post at your own risk.

 

A new thread has been created for side discussion of a few technical things brought up here.

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 I wanted to clarify just in case anyone reading thought we actual have a REAL mod team and infractions system here. Enter and post at your own risk.

 

 

 

Yea, I am clearly aware that there are REAL infractions here. Seeing that I am the only member I think who has ever been dealt one. I am reminded of it every time I post and see it below my name. It's ok....I wear it like a badge of honor and I thank you for allowing me the privilege. 

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Ricci, thank you for your comments and for starting a new (hopefully more technically based) thread.

 

Just a few notes and I think I can let this thread go.

 

I understand people are fed up and find the klippel joking funny.  What I personally don't find very funny is the fact that it's implied over and over that I show up in every SI discussion with the intent to cause harm to SI's business.  I very rarely post about SI and when I do it's in a flurry to defend myself after a single post to point out misinformation or because I was provoked.  And the fact that I've discussed CSS and Dan (and other individuals) a few times should indicate that this is not a personal matter with SI, it's about the information.

 

Many people now have stated that this has happened on "multiple forums".  There's a few threads at avs.  There's ONE thread at diyaudio, and that would have ended immediately after I said it wasn't the highest displacement driver on the planet if Nick hadn't joined the forum specifically to argue that point.  That's where the real confrontation started, and also where Jacob posted the Le klippels.  I've mentioned SI specs a few times on diyaudio outside that one thread but only in passing and usually as a caution because I was actively recommending that someone purchase an SI driver.  Then there's this forum, the entire extent of which is contained in this one thread.  So aside from avs the entire extent of my "multiple forum" posting is one thread at diyaudio and a few mentions while I was recommending an SI sale and this thread.  That's it.

 

If anyone gets the impression I'm telling them SI drivers don't perform well they clearly are not reading my posts.  I've pointed out on MANY occasions, including in this thread that they perform very well.  I've gone out of my way to say other manufacturers in this niche market spec xmax the same way (but they don't claim klippel verified), SI rates power handling in a fair (but not conservative) manner, and that the drivers perform very well even when you beat the hell out of them.  The is about information and integrity in advertising and accurate specs.  There doesn't have to be a standard as long as manufacturers don't claim things that are not true, like Klippel verified.  I'm pretty sure you don't want to comment on Wiggins at all but that scenario was a mess, and outright fabricated xmax spec with the klippel name attached.  This should not be allowed.  I'm not bashing the product, I'm bashing the misinformation.

 

People are trying to make it seem like I follow Nick around and bomb all his threads.  It's simply not true, I NEVER started it, (it always starts with my response to a specific piece of misinformation or provocation) it's only happened a very limited number of times and wouldn't have ever gone past a single post on any given occasion if I wasn't being provoked and argued with.

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This reminds me of my little protectionist crusade against the sealed JTR 212HT-LP, which I purchased a full LCR set of those as well as 4 JTR Slanted 8s, which was over $10,000.  I then found out the sealed JTR 212 did not meet its posted specs of 70-24000 Hz, my measurements actually showed it was 3 db down at 80Hz and 10 db down at 70Hz.  I was pissed, I was confused, and I wanted to make sure others didn't make the same mistake I did.  People started making jokes about me and calling me Dave "Midbass" Gage.  I'm sure I helped sell some JTR 212s as I loved the midrange and upper end but basically killed the sealed JTR 212.  I'm not necessarily happy I "killed" a product but I still have a bad taste in my mouth about my 212s and had I purchased the ported 212s, I would likely be happy.  But I wouldn't necessarily change anything since I was forced to learn why my speakers didn't match everyone else's thoughts on the JTR 212, which were universally the ported version on the forums.  If I hadn't learned, if I hadn't had posted so much, I likely wouldn't have met the people I have and wouldn't have the business I decided to start.  But I'm glad I personally moved on and stopped being a joke of myself, it was stressful, frustrating, and annoying...I was annoying myself some times.  I can tell you I'm happier now that I let my little personal crusade go.

 

EDIT - DIYSG, this is not meant as advice or anything to you and definitely doesn't require a response.  Simply pointing out this situation reminded me of my own.  Also, now that I've started a business, I need to keep my personal opinions out of this even though I know we went back and forth once before.  I do make jokes about this Klippel issue but had forgotten exactly who the source was so if you hadn't had posted here I wouldn't have attributed the joke with you as DIYSG.  Nothing personal meant from me, it has simply become a caricature with a life of its own, at least in my opinion.  I'm pretty much with Beast's post, I see your point and agree with some of your arguments but your arguments, while valid, have been rendered ineffective by your style.  Again, my opinion.  Feel free to ignore my opinion as well as me, again, no need to respond to me.

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Like I always say...

 

ALLLLLLLL YOURRRRRR FAULLLLLLLLLLLT!!!

 

BTW, as an aside to the DIYSG showthread:

 

As always, I thoroughly enjoyed myself at your very cool abode in them thar hills above beautiful downtown Asheville, NC, my friend. I love the sound in your HT space. The low end is excruciatingly powerful @ +15dBRL, although I prefer a flat-to-+6dBRL. The guest list was a pleasure to be around and engage with, the food and libation were top shelf and it's one of my favorite things to check out a half-sloshed Rowdy Roddy Piper say stuff like "Go ahead, Dave... crank it. It's only a chopper scene. No sweat."

 

David "Chopper Scene" Gage, I like it. :)  If you're not breaking things, you're not trying hard enough. :)  Good knowledge to learn and good lessons to learn...until the next time I need to learn both again.  As I always state, the personal interactions I've had with AVS members has always been top notch and a joy.  Appreciate all you and Paul have done for me and others and glad we're all doing well, busy but well.  As an update to that, I've been on insulin with meals since Nov. 2 and doing absolutely outstanding.  Appreciated our talks on that and many other subjects.  Look forward to our next meeting.

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Ricci, thank you for your comments and for starting a new (hopefully more technically based) thread.

 

Just a few notes and I think I can let this thread go.

 

I understand people are fed up and find the klippel joking funny.  What I personally don't find very funny is the fact that it's implied over and over that I show up in every SI discussion with the intent to cause harm to SI's business.  I very rarely post about SI and when I do it's in a flurry to defend myself after a single post to point out misinformation or because I was provoked.  And the fact that I've discussed CSS and Dan (and other individuals) a few times should indicate that this is not a personal matter with SI, it's about the information.

 

 

My suggestion, DIYSG, because I do like your posts....

 

In the future when you see "misinformation" or whatever from the manufacture.... just let it go. Especially here. We are a pretty smart bunch and with so much good data here, most if not all of us will not be swayed by inaccurate ratings no matter from whom. The truth gets out and people see it. There is no point going on a relentless crusade to 'correct' this information for us. We get it.

 

If you see a manufacturer misrepresent their product, over inflate ratings or what have you... just ignore it. Don't buy their product. Make a mental list of who you will ignore or purchase equipment from. No need to beat a dead horse to a pulp. The people will see and get it if this really is the case and really, it isn't most of the time.

 

Just my couple percent of a dollar on this.

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 So aside from avs the entire extent of my "multiple forum" posting is one thread at diyaudio and a few mentions while I was recommending an SI sale and this thread.  That's it.

 

 I'm pretty sure you don't want to comment on Wiggins at all but that scenario was a mess, and outright fabricated xmax spec with the klippel name attached.  

 

 

Well technically...That's multiple forums and threads.

 

The Wiggins and CSS discussions I either completely forgot or never caught wind of. Where were these? DIYMA? I must've missed all of that drama. Kind of surprised I did really.

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Yea, I am clearly aware that there are REAL infractions here. Seeing that I am the only member I think who has ever been dealt one. I am reminded of it every time I post and see it below my name. It's ok....I wear it like a badge of honor and I thank you for allowing me the privilege. 

 

It was the least I could do after your hospitality at the GTG.

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Well technically...That's multiple forums and threads.

 

The Wiggins and CSS discussions I either completely forgot or never caught wind of. Where were these? DIYMA? I must've missed all of that drama. Kind of surprised I did really.

 

Yes, technically you are right.  But the implication (I think, and not implied by you but by others) was that I go around joining all kinds of forums to talk about SI.  That isn't the case.  Nick joined diyaudio to argue with me, we were both members of avs, and I joined this forum to comment on this thread.  Not as insidious as the implication implies, I think.  So technically Nick has done this on multiple forums too, and also joined a forum specifically for this purpose of arguing with me.  But nobody questions his motives.

 

The CSS/Wiggins thing at the link below.  At the time this started I had never even seen a klippel graph before.  But I learned real quick, as I wanted to know how someone could publish "Xmax (Klippel) 5.9 mm" but an independent 3rd party using the same machine and same distortion limits could get 2.4 mm.  Dan's comments explain how, but it's a bunch of garbage.  He used an intentional offset to make Le performance better but butchered the Bl curve to do it.  The funniest part is the CSS product manager trying to "klippel shule" Erin H and getting discovered that he didn't know how to read a klippel graph.

 

 http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/49873-css-vwr126x-klippel-testing

 

Erin did a LOT of klippel work and it's a great resource.  He got some klippel education from Patrick at Redrock Acoustics (who I'm sure you know does a lot of the klippels for a lot of the smaller companies and even some of the bigger ones that can't afford their own machine or don't want to bother).  Unfortunately most of the stuff he tested was expensive midranges that he was interested in for his car audio system.  And a lot of that is locked up at diymobileaudio and you can't see it unless you join up.  He did branch out on his own and post stuff on his own website, medleysmusings but I think he's quit since then, not even sure if he still has the machine anymore.  IIRC he was another one of those fellows like Danley that worked for NASA when they were younger, so he is a bright fellow.  That doesn't necessarily imply anything, but IIRC it is fact.

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I'm going to get on my soap box for a minute.  I tell my boy and girl twins that they need to be well rounded if they want to be successful and have the greatest impact.  My son and daughter are different, my son is outgoing, friendly, and willing to be the center of attention; fine, like his father he wants to be the center of attention, though in my defense I have somewhat grown out of that. :)  Like many young girls, my daughter loves animals and has talked about helping animals, but unlike my son she is very reserved and not outgoing.  I tell her I want her to take public speaking classes so she can be more confident and comfortable in those situations.  She really doesn't want to but I challenge her that she really can't be effective helping animals if she's not willing to talk and connect with people because she will need to effectively convince people to help her cause. 

 

I bring this up here because it speaks to credibility, the ability to connect with people, and ultimately to the effectiveness of an argument.

 

In my mind, Nick has lost some credibility due to the valid points brought up here by DIYSG as well as the way he sometimes responds on multiple forums.  I've told Nick this and he knows this.  Unfortunately, Nick is a small business owner and feels his business and products are an extension of himself and he has a personal connection.  This isn't bad as this contributes to his pride in developing solid products.  But it also can be bad when he takes a criticism of his products personally and reacts in a defensive posture.  Nick really needs to follow the adage that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it.  And if you aren't sure, write it but put it aside for a day or two to reevaluate after letting the heat of the moment wain. 

 

On the flip side, I don't connect with DIYSG's argument anymore even though I've read the technical arguments and agree with many of his points.  After it was pointed out a few times, I was over it.  He lost me as an audience.  To make an impact you have to connect with your audience but if your argument is at an extreme it will lose many in the audience.  Too basic or too technical isn't good for the majority.  Too short or too verbose isn't good either.  And if you say the same thing over and over, the argument is old and played out.  So in my opinion DIYSG, I think you've made your point, which has resulted in some changes, but you aren't going to change the world attacking Nick (I changed the word above from attack to criticism of his products but used attack here due to the incessant nature of the posts).  At this point your argument is not effective even if you are technically correct.  You may be "saving" some people from making a mistake but my more educated guess at this point is you are not having much impact in fighting the industry's inaccurate specifications.  I'm not sure if you're helping Nick's sales as he has joked since any press is "good" press but I'd lean toward that than you are hurting his sales by pointing out some inaccuracies of his specs.

 

And again, DIYSG, I don't know you personally and don't have anything against you.  I have ignored you on AVSForum because I was tired of the same argument.  But it is a free Internet and you are free to spread your word just as I am free to make a choice of who I want to read and which products I want to buy.  Please don't take any joking of Klippeling to be an attack on your or a minimization of your valid points, it is however a minimization of your argument due to the repetitive, ineffective nature with which it has now been delivered.  Again, my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

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Yes, technically you are right.  But the implication (I think, and not implied by you but by others) was that I go around joining all kinds of forums to talk about SI.  That isn't the case.  Nick joined diyaudio to argue with me, we were both members of avs, and I joined this forum to comment on this thread.  Not as insidious as the implication implies, I think.  So technically Nick has done this on multiple forums too, and also joined a forum specifically for this purpose of arguing with me.  But nobody questions his motives.

 

The CSS/Wiggins thing at the link below.  At the time this started I had never even seen a klippel graph before.  But I learned real quick, as I wanted to know how someone could publish "Xmax (Klippel) 5.9 mm" but an independent 3rd party using the same machine and same distortion limits could get 2.4 mm.  Dan's comments explain how, but it's a bunch of garbage.  He used an intentional offset to make Le performance better but butchered the Bl curve to do it.  The funniest part is the CSS product manager trying to "klippel shule" Erin H and getting discovered that he didn't know how to read a klippel graph.

 

 http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/49873-css-vwr126x-klippel-testing

 

Erin did a LOT of klippel work and it's a great resource.  He got some klippel education from Patrick at Redrock Acoustics (who I'm sure you know does a lot of the klippels for a lot of the smaller companies and even some of the bigger ones that can't afford their own machine or don't want to bother).  Unfortunately most of the stuff he tested was expensive midranges that he was interested in for his car audio system.  And a lot of that is locked up at diymobileaudio and you can't see it unless you join up.  He did branch out on his own and post stuff on his own website, medleysmusings but I think he's quit since then, not even sure if he still has the machine anymore.  IIRC he was another one of those fellows like Danley that worked for NASA when they were younger, so he is a bright fellow.  That doesn't necessarily imply anything, but IIRC it is fact.

 

The difference in the postings is Nick is selling a product. We all know that and as such it stands to reason everybody should have a solid grasp on his motives. It's just common sense. Everybody defends their product and their personal space. For him it is personal. That cuts both ways. It means I completely understand him joining up at a different site where his products are being discussed or perhaps questioned. On the other side of the coin since he is behind a product it means he will get judged more harshly for things he says than if he was just some Joe on the sidelines.

 

I've had some dealings and emails with Erin. Haven't talked with him in quite some time.

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I'm going to get on my soap box for a minute.  I tell my boy and girl twins that they need to be well rounded if they want to be successful and have the greatest impact.  My son and daughter are different, my son is outgoing, friendly, and willing to be the center of attention; fine, like his father he wants to be the center of attention, though in my defense I have somewhat grown out of that. :)  Like many young girls, my daughter loves animals and has talked about helping animals, but unlike my son she is very reserved and not outgoing.  I tell her I want her to take public speaking classes so she can be more confident and comfortable in those situations.  She really doesn't want to but I challenge her that she really can't be effective helping animals if she's not willing to talk and connect with people because she will need to effectively convince people to help her cause. 

 

I bring this up here because it speaks to credibility, the ability to connect with people, and ultimately to the effectiveness of an argument.

 

In my mind, Nick has lost some credibility due to the valid points brought up here by DIYSG as well as the way he sometimes responds on multiple forums.  I've told Nick this and he knows this.  Unfortunately, Nick is a small business owner and feels his business and products are an extension of himself and he has a personal connection.  This isn't bad as this contributes to his pride in developing solid products.  But it also can be bad when he takes a criticism of his products personally and reacts in a defensive posture.  Nick really needs to follow the adage that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it.  And if you aren't sure, write it but put it aside for a day or two to reevaluate after letting the heat of the moment wain. 

 

On the flip side, I don't connect with DIYSG's argument anymore even though I've read the technical arguments and agree with many of his points.  After it was pointed out a few times, I was over it.  He lost me as an audience.  To make an impact you have to connect with your audience but if your argument is at an extreme it will lose many in the audience.  Too basic or too technical isn't good for the majority.  Too short or too verbose isn't good either.  And if you say the same thing over and over, the argument is old and played out.  So in my opinion DIYSG, I think you've made your point, which has resulted in some changes, but you aren't going to change the world attacking Nick (I changed the word above from attack to criticism of his products but used attack here due to the incessant nature of the posts).  At this point your argument is not effective even if you are technically correct.  You may be "saving" some people from making a mistake but my more educated guess at this point is you are not having much impact in fighting the industry's inaccurate specifications.  I'm not sure if you're helping Nick's sales as he has joked since any press is "good" press but I'd lean toward that than you are hurting his sales by pointing out some inaccuracies of his specs.

 

And again, DIYSG, I don't know you personally and don't have anything against you.  I have ignored you on AVSForum because I was tired of the same argument.  But it is a free Internet and you are free to spread your word just as I am free to make a choice of who I want to read and which products I want to buy.  Please don't take any joking of Klippeling to be an attack on your or a minimization of your valid points, it is however a minimization of your argument due to the repetitive, ineffective nature with which it has now been delivered.  Again, my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

I want to thank you personally for your candor and fairness in this matter.

 

To be clear though, I don't want people to not buy SI products or "save them from making a mistake".  I've recommended that people buy his drivers, and they have.  The SI HT 18 was the value leader for the entire market for a long time, and I was pretty loud about that fact.  I just want a fair (not necessarily standardized) level playing field for published specs and claims.  Everybody wants to have the highest xmax number, it's actually called the "xmax wars" from what I understand by some people in the industry.  

 

Historically xmax was just a geometric measurement (or a number the marketing dept picked out of a hat).  Then the DUMAX and Klippel became acceptable standards but the geometric measurement was still in play.  Then the new ultra high excursion drivers came out and they found that they could produce incredibly high numbers in Bl performance but not so much in suspension or inductance characteristics, so they just dropped those qualifiers right out of the equation and use Bl alone as a spec.  Now we are seeing some companies say the drivers are klippel verified when they are actually not.  

 

It's all a slippery slope.  How is the next new guy (small company) going to compete?  I don't want inflated xmax specs or dubious claims about klippel verification to become standard or the HT industry is going to turn into what happened to the car audio industry in the 90's with amps that have a 20 amp fuse but say 5000 watts on the case in big bold numbers.

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I am not technical, at all!  I just know how shit(oops, bad word) works in my room.  I don't invent anything and just copy what great DIYers have done already.  I purchased drivers based on the community and data-bass, not SIMS.  So I have a question for you guys, if the SI 24 is klippel verified at 20mm, and the Dayton UM18 is 22 mm, the Dayton being an 18 and the SI a 24 should be less than 6 dB in output over the Dayton right?  I am basing this off a 21 being 3 dB over the same 18, and the 24 6 dB over the same 18.  Just a generalization.  The 24 is actually closer to 10 dB more than the Dayton in the ULF region and would indicate a greater than 20mm klippel, no?  Why use the Le Klippel when it is not really the bandwidth the 24 is used for, it is an ULF monster, no?  This is my perspective who just likes to have a great HT experience.  20mm 24 should have less displacement than dual 34mm 18's, no? Again, all this is not making sense as the 24 is concerned unless some are looking at 20hz and above in which I hardly even notice, I look for under 20hz because all these drivers will rock above with multiples.   

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Klippel ratings are meant to find a certain distortion level in a driver, usually 10 or 20 percent.

 

Data- bass max spl testing goes WAY past 10 or 20 percent distortion, right to the bleeding edge of destruction.  IIRC he's hit close to 100 percent distortion in some of his tests.

 

These are two very different things.  You can't use a klippel rating to even guess how much usable excursion a driver will have.  If you have the full klippel report with all the different graphs and you were fairly good at interpreting them you could make an educated guess at what the usable excursion might be, but the point is that klippel verified xmax and usable excursion are two VERY different things.  Add to that the fact that usable excursion is very subjective based on what you can stand (how bad it sounds) and klippel verified xmax is very objective, you read the graph, draw a line on it, and where the curve crosses the line, that's the limit for that graph.  Then you take all 4 of the main graphs and the one that has the lowest limit is the klippel verified xmax.  There's really no room for interpretation or subjectivity at all.

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I would think the excursion of a driver is much more important than one aspect of it in real world applications, no?  I usually look at the CEA numbers limited by distortion because max spl is not needed for me as I use multiples. In my little room and world the drivers that pass the 10hz burst on data bass always seem to sound deeper and cleaner than the ones that don't but actually have higher long term numbers where distortion does not matter. 

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I would think the excursion of a driver is much more important than one aspect of it in real world applications, no?  I usually look at the CEA numbers limited by distortion because max spl is not needed for me as I use multiples. In my little room and world the drivers that pass the 10hz burst on data bass always seem to sound deeper and cleaner than the ones that don't but actually have higher long term numbers where distortion does not matter. 

 

The CEA burst tests are testing and giving a pass/fail grade based on distortion.  That is pretty much exactly what the Klippel system does, but in a different way.  (Very basically anyway.)  A Klippel test is more similar to the CEA test than to the max long term output test in terms of evaluating distortion levels at least.  The max long term output test doesn't worry itself about distortion at all, except in the fact that Ricci will shut it down if the power compression gets absurdly high before the driver is ready to mechanically rip itself apart.

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There's really no room for interpretation or subjectivity at all.

There's also no room for a business there. A 20mm xmax is simply inaccurate for the 24 and if Nick did use that, he'd be out of business as Josh posted above. Nick has a family and is running a business to put food on the table. Call him out on ridiculous statements or specifically saying a value is Klippel verified but realize he has a family and should be given some leeway too, especially when the rest of the industry has and uses that leeway. I'm not saying to let him or anyone else get away without being called out but Nick's info is not out of line as say Definitive Technology speakers that many more AVSers purchase and find out they don't perform within the same time zone of the specs. But since Definitive doesn't post on the forums they get a pass from you even though they harm many more AVSers. I know you say you know nothing about Definitive so I guess lucky Definitive for getting a pass and not being stupid enough to post on the same forum with you. Not exactly fair. Again, I'm not saying Nick or anyone else should blatantly lie but I wouldn't use Klippel measurements either if they were flat out wrong in how a driver performs, objective or not.

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I would just like to note here that I have pushed a few drivers over 200% distortion. I think one calculated to over 300%. I'll have to look that up it's been a minute. That means it is  pure distortion and then a whole other virtual speaker producing pure distortion appears in space next to it. I've heard a driver "quit" making the fundamental bass frequency and suddenly jump up an octave or 3. It's not a good sign. :D

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OK here is my point.  DIYSG said that the 24 klippel measured is 20mm, the Dayton um18 is 22mm.  He said this will mislead people thinking the 24 has more spl than it does when they run sims to compare. Well, here is a sim from a regular user using the 22mm from Dayton and your 20mm for the 24. Both boxes in their respective .707 alignment.

 

klippel_zpseutiolo8.png

 

You are correct in that it is misleading, the 24 is lacking 6 dB of output according to Data-bass measured numbers.  So apparently the Dayton is off as well.  You said sims are not accurate due to false parameters and included SI as one of them, I would agree.  The point?  20mm does not seem fair at all to the 24 and why so many are tired of hearing about. My next point is Thank God for Ricci!  It shows the 24 to equal two LMS $1000 in excursion, not less than two UM18's according to klippel.  I know what you are going to say but your point was about misleading spl for the 24 vs others and used examples before. You have to show how it benefits Si as well, not just the negatives. 

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Nick, my recommendation is to remove Klippel from your vocabulary, testing methodology, and website and stop using it completely. Let Josh do the independent testing. I'm sure that's not what DIYSG wants as that is going away from industry standards but at this point that's what I'd do to get DIYSG off of your back. And stop comparing your drivers to other drivers in the forums, let your fans, and you have many, be the cheerleaders for you. Your drivers perform well enough without needing some of the statements or the Klippel verified measurements. As long as you have your drivers independently tested by Josh, you're better than the majority of manufacturers out there.

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There's also no room for a business there. A 20mm xmax is simply inaccurate for the 24 and if Nick did use that, he'd be out of business as Josh posted above. Nick has a family and is running a business to put food on the table. Call him out on ridiculous statements or specifically saying a value is Klippel verified but realize he has a family and should be given some leeway too, especially when the rest of the industry has and uses that leeway. I'm not saying to let him or anyone else get away without being called out but Nick's info is not out of line as say Definitive Technology speakers that many more AVSers purchase and find out they don't perform within the same time zone of the specs. But since Definitive doesn't post on the forums they get a pass from you even though they harm many more AVSers. I know you say you know nothing about Definitive so I guess lucky Definitive for getting a pass and not being stupid enough to post on the same forum with you. Not exactly fair. Again, I'm not saying Nick or anyone else should blatantly lie but I wouldn't use Klippel measurements either if they were flat out wrong in how a driver performs, objective or not.

 

20 mm xmax is not inaccurate BY KLIPPEL VERIFICATION STANDARDS.

 

SI is under no obligation WHATSOEVER to use klippel verification standards.

 

As long as he doesn't say or imply the drivers are klippel verified he can use whatever standard he wants.  If he wants to use Bl alone that's fine and it will net 30 - 36 mm as the klippels showed.  BUT YOU CAN'T SAY IT'S KLIPPEL VERIFIED BECAUSE IT'S NOT.

 

I've said this probably a hundred times now and at least several times in this thread alone.  This very simple misunderstanding is why these discussions get strewn along for so incredibly long.

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OK here is my point.  DIYSG said that the 24 klippel measured is 20mm, the Dayton um18 is 22mm.  He said this will mislead people thinking the 24 has more spl than it does when they run sims to compare. Well, here is a sim from a regular user using the 22mm from Dayton and your 20mm for the 24. Both boxes in their respective .707 alignment.

 

You are correct in that it is misleading, the 24 is lacking 6 dB of output according to Data-bass measured numbers.  So apparently the Dayton is off as well.  You said sims are not accurate due to false parameters and included SI as one of them, I would agree.  The point?  20mm does not seem fair at all to the 24 and why so many are tired of hearing about. My next point is Thank God for Ricci!  It shows the 24 to equal two LMS $1000 in excursion, not less than two UM18's according to klippel.  I know what you are going to say but your point was about misleading spl for the 24 vs others and used examples before. You have to show how it benefits Si as well, not just the negatives. 

 

You are using a very simple basic WinISD sim and trying to compare it to data-bass measured long term max spl and relate that to a klippel verified xmax spec.  These are three very incredibly different things.  None of them are directly comparable to each other.  There's a reason why data-bass measures drivers - it's because simple sims won't get you anywhere.  And there's a reason data-bass does both CEA and high power compression testing - those two tests give different information, one gives distortion information and the other gives torture test edge of destruction max spl.  Three very different things.

 

Your WinISD sim doesn't include any large coil effects so right off the bat they are simply wrong.  Your simulated .707 qtc alignments will measure nowhere near .707 qtc if you actually build and measure it (like data-bass does).

 

You are still confusing klippel verified xmax with usable excursion.  These are completely different things and a simple WinISD sim isn't going to clear anything up because even if you could compare klippel verified xmax to a measurement of usable excursion (you can't) these drivers don't sim accurately.

 

My point was NEVER about misleading spl from the 24, it's been measured, it's not misleading and it never was.  I was claiming the SI 24 was = to a pair of LMS (not 4 LMS) years before the measurements came out.  The thing that was misleading was to claim it's published xmax is klippel verified.  (And I don't think anyone ever claimed that specific driver was klippel verified anyway, although several of Nick's other drivers did carry that claim so by extension the 24 probably was assumed to be also by some people - Jacob showed and stated that it wasn't over 2 years ago.)

 

This is the problem and why this issue has never been cleared up.  You think I'm saying something I'm not.  How could I possibly argue that the SI 24 doesn't measure exactly as data-bass measured it?  But that's usable excursion, the max spl you can get out of it before the driver tears itself to pieces, not klippel verified xmax.

 

It's entirely possible for one driver to have more klippel verified xmax than another, but the other to have more max long term usable excursion than the one with the higher klippel verified xmax.

 

I don't even know what to say anymore, I've explained this so many times.

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20 mm xmax is not inaccurate BY KLIPPEL VERIFICATION STANDARDS.

 

SI is under no obligation WHATSOEVER to use klippel verification standards.

 

As long as he doesn't say or imply the drivers are klippel verified he can use whatever standard he wants.  If he wants to use Bl alone that's fine and it will net 30 - 36 mm as the klippels showed.  BUT YOU CAN'T SAY IT'S KLIPPEL VERIFIED BECAUSE IT'S NOT.

 

I've said this probably a hundred times now and at least several times in this thread alone.  This very simple misunderstanding is why these discussions get strewn along for so incredibly long.

 

Understand and agree with you.  So the question becomes why does this keep coming up in thread after thread?  Again, I'm not attacking you but lets hopefully put this to bed so you can deal with more important things in life and Nick can too.

 

I know in this particular thread you came over to respond to what you perceived as a personal attack due to the "Klippel jokes".  Sorry but right or wrong this has now taken a life of its own and is bigger than you and Nick.  Just as I was called "Midbass Dgage" or "Midbass Dave" for a while in the JTR thread, this issue has reached caricature status.  So the jokes will likely live on for a while before they fade...assuming the posts stop coming up periodically.  I hope you don't feel that you need to respond anytime someone makes a Klippel joke because it isn't attributed to you personally or directly but more to the pattern of posts time after time.  If you let them go, they won't be tied to you personally anymore, at least not in my mind as I had already forgotten who had started it until you reminded me today.

 

I just did a search on the Stereo Integrity website and find only a single mention of Klippel and that is in an old archived document from Adire Audio called WooferSpeed.pdf.  I find no other mention of Klippel on the website so I don't think he has anything on his website now that would potentially be misleading.

 

I haven't been following Nick's recent posts but I believe he has posted less on the forums and hopefully isn't comparing his HS24 to 3 LMS5400s anymore as I've said all along as have you that it is equal to a pair, actually the HS24 slightly exceeds but close enough.  I also say the LMS5400/HST-18 is equal to a pair of the venerable SI HT18, which would require close to 4 HT18 to have near-equivalency of a single HS24.  But for most 18" drivers I would say an HS24 exceeds a pair of the 18" drivers whether we're talking UXL-18 or UM18-22 (and would expect the same with the new DS4).

 

So if Nick strikes Klippel from his posting vocabulary and stops comparing his subs to others, would that appease you such that we can all move on from these posts?

 

And I'm being serious and not trying to be argumentative or any other such negativity.  As I've said, life is too short for this sort of issue to linger and would like to see it put to bed.  If I need to beat Nick senseless the next time I see him to make sure he adheres to his part of the bargain, I'm healthy again and can squash him like a grape, so consider that part done. :)

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Understand and agree with you.  So the question becomes why does this keep coming up in thread after thread?  Again, I'm not attacking you but lets hopefully put this to bed so you can deal with more important things in life and Nick can too.

 

I know in this particular thread you came over to respond to what you perceived as a personal attack due to the "Klippel jokes".  Sorry but right or wrong this has now taken a life of its own and is bigger than you and Nick.  Just as I was called "Midbass Dgage" or "Midbass Dave" for a while in the JTR thread, this issue has reached caricature status.  So the jokes will likely live on for a while before they fade...assuming the posts stop coming up periodically.  I hope you don't feel that you need to respond anytime someone makes a Klippel joke because it isn't attributed to you personally or directly but more to the pattern of posts time after time.  If you let them go, they won't be tied to you personally anymore, at least not in my mind as I had already forgotten who had started it until you reminded me today.

 

I just did a search on the Stereo Integrity website and find only a single mention of Klippel and that is in an old archived document from Adire Audio called WooferSpeed.pdf.  I find no other mention of Klippel on the website so I don't think he has anything on his website now that would potentially be misleading.

 

I haven't been following Nick's recent posts but I believe he has posted less on the forums and hopefully isn't comparing his HS24 to 3 LMS5400s anymore as I've said all along as have you that it is equal to a pair, actually the HS24 slightly exceeds but close enough.  I also say the LMS5400/HST-18 is equal to a pair of the venerable SI HT18, which would require close to 4 HT18 to have near-equivalency of a single HS24.  But for most 18" drivers I would say an HS24 exceeds a pair of the 18" drivers whether we're talking UXL-18 or UM18-22 (and would expect the same with the new DS4).

 

So if Nick strikes Klippel from his posting vocabulary and stops comparing his subs to others, would that appease you such that we can all move on from these posts?

 

And I'm being serious and not trying to be argumentative or any other such negativity.  As I've said, life is too short for this sort of issue to linger and would like to see it put to bed.  If I need to beat Nick senseless the next time I see him to make sure he adheres to his part of the bargain, I'm healthy again and can squash him like a grape, so consider that part done. :)

 

SI never claimed klippel verified on the website, only in forum posts, of which I linked a few in a recent avs thread.  And just a few weeks ago he told a customer that one SI 24 = three HST 18s, so I don't think this point has sunk in for him just yet.

 

But yeah, if he doesn't make any false claims or provocations I would never respond to anything he says.  Why would I?

 

The problem recently hasn't been so much Nick but misinformation from others (usually very non technical people) like Enders in the most recent avs thread.  Usually I pop in with a quick post to clear things up and then get attacked for it - Enders posted a purely provocative post that he even admitted he fully expected to be banned for in response to my technical response.  This is not the exception, this is how it usually goes.

 

So that's where we're at.  I said a long time ago that if no one was posting false information or provocations I wouldn't ever say a word.  And I mean it.  This isn't fun and I get nothing out of it regardless of the crazy motivations people attribute to me.  And it's not just about Si either - Bill Fitzmaurice is probably by far the most unethical person I've ever seen abuse the concept of open forums for personal gain.  When unethical stuff happens I'm not going to just shut up and ignore it.  I know you talk about Definitive and some people talk about Chase(?) but I don't even know who they are.  Like I said I don't go around looking for scandals.  But if I see a problem I talk about it.

 

SI makes good products and SI customers and fans are good people.  They are just a bit too liberal with the claims sometimes and really don't like being corrected.

 

I fully admit I myself got too confrontational and pushed things further than necessary at times, but that's what happens when you face a barrage of character attacks and bizarre questioning of my motivations and the responses are completely devoid of any technical reasoning at all.. 

 

Very simply though - yes, I would love it if all this would stop.  But again, I never start it, I just respond to false information and provocations.

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