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The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)

Bass Movies Bass Movie Measurements Deep Bass Movies Bass Waterfall Graphs Bass Graphs

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#21 Bossobass Dave

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:44 PM

SpecLab accounts for the decimation at the I/O stage in the FFT Settings dialogue box, and updates with proper bin size and freq range.


I understand, but I was just saying that the I/O decimation still has to be entered manually or there's nothing to account for.

I say we have a few different star ratings, with an overall rating given last.

Overall LF Content Star Rating is an average of several different 5/5 star possible ratings:
A. Level
B. Extension
C. Execution/Appropriateness/Use of LF

Then a final 'buy' or 'no buy' rating given with everything else taken into acount, like how good the film was, rewatchability, etc.

The objective ratings (if I can get them to work this weekend) may also play a part.

I intend to do Peak v Avg graphs and hopefully overall LF Power as well as LF Power Per Octave for each film rated. The ratings will probably be a mix of subjective and objective for an overall star rating.

Any other suggestions?


JSS


No, is perfect. :^)
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#22 Ricci

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 01:24 PM

Objectively it would be nice if the ratings could involve the peak and average hold graph. Average would give a look at how much total bass is in the movie and the peak gives a look at how loud it maxes out at. Extension should be looked at as well. Also the best 3 or 4 demo type parts should be charted.

#23 maxmercy

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:24 PM

Ricci,

What will happen is Bosso will provide the specific demo scene caps, I will provide peak/avg, and I will tinker today to see if I can actually extract data from it, to be able to calculate peak and average power per octave, and the ratings will come from both. Note that subjectivity is still a part of the ratings, as one of the 5-star measures is subjective, as well as the final 'buy' or 'no buy' rating. I am going to rearrange the first post to show this.

JSS

#24 laugsbach

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:17 AM

We will post tutorials on how to generate these graphs so that more folks can contribute to the thread.


Hi maxmercy, count me in to help contribute. I want to thank Bosso for taking the time in helping me get set-up with SL and being patient with all my e-mails. I am getting closer and attached is my latest graph from WOTW that bosso suggested.


How does this one look?

Larry

#25 Bossobass Dave

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:13 AM

Thanks for the effort, Larry.

I'm bringing this one here (have already e-mailed you on this) because it's a head scratcher for sure:

I put my digital copy of this scene up in Omnigraffle with your latest posted version. I tried to reconsile the 2 graphs for a long while and could not do it. For example, you show a lot of content in the 60 Hz area that just isn't on the disc.

Finally, my brain caught it. I stretched my graph until just my 0-30 Hz lined up with your 0-120 Hz frequency scale and there it was, a perfect match (although my graph is distorted to a large degree):


Posted Image

Your graph is on top, my version is on the bottom and the severely stretched version is in the middle.

I have no clue as to how your SL frequency scale is so far off. I suggested in e-mail that you change your frequency scale (top left corner of the display) to (I think) 0-450 Hz. I would actually like to see 0-480 Hz (reasoning that if your 0-120 Hz is actually 0-30 Hz, then if you quadruple your scale to 480 Hz, you may actually capture 0-120 Hz).

Windows (ugh)

I also suggested you reboot your computer and try the graph again.

If you can post the expanded FR scaled graph here, that would be great...

#26 maxmercy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:17 AM

Looks good to me, but bosso needs to chime in as it looks like you have a rolloff below 10Hz.

Great news on the data front. I will be able to grab data from peak/avg graphs, with the help of a program called DataThief, an autotrace program. It will allow me to gather data on a film's peak/avg content and find out relative sound power per octave. It is time intensive, and if someone knows of a better autotrace program than DataThief, please let me know. Bad part is for datathief to be able to track the trace well, it is not a pretty looking trace (black and white graph, mainly).

I have an out of town conference to attend and a 1 hour lecture to give next week, so I will be out of the loop for a while, no data until then. I will start the data gathering with recent and known great bass films in about a week or so.

JSS

#27 maxmercy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:59 PM

Well folks, I got it to work. I can pull data from a SpecLab peak average graph, and I did a test-run on Immortals:

Immortals Bass Power

Overall Peak Power 535.7
0-10Hz Peak Power 28.4
10-20Hz Peak Power 60.4
20-40Hz Peak Power 99.8
40-80Hz Peak Power 183.8
80-160Hz Peak Power 163.3

Overall Average Power 31.8
0-10Hz Average Power 1.6
10-20Hz Average Power 3.6
20-40Hz Average Power 6.6
40-80Hz Avergae Power 10.6
80-160Hz Average Power 9.5

The power ratings are in PaHz. I essentially did a numerical integration to find the area under the curve for the peak and average graphs from 0-160Hz, and for each octave specified. Now we can have a truly apples/apples comparison for films.

One caveat: I do rolloff below 7Hz, -3dB down at 5Hz, and off the cliff under that. But for relative comparisons, this should be a very good tool.

As far as star ratings, Immortals gets 5 star extension, 5 star level, but 3 star for execution due to the clipping involved, which I believe is in the sattelite channels,average star level of 4.3. Overall buy/no-buy is a coin toss for me. Some great scenes, though, if you can ffwd through the BS parts.


JSS

#28 maxmercy

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:03 PM

Repeat post, sorry.

JSS

#29 Ricci

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:29 AM

Awesome stuff guys...I like what you have going there Max. Hopefully I will be able to contribute at some point but I don't know when that will be.

It was nice to meet you today Larry and Dominguez1 as well. I hope you enjoy the sub. Again if you have any questions or problems hit me up. Don't forget to take the handles off.

#30 Madaeel

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:00 AM

Hey guys I gotta say everything looks awesome. I'm checking this thread everyday. Finally a low bass content thread dedicated to............low bass. What a crazy idea!

What do you think about the final rating being buy, rental, or no buy??? You could redbox it for $2 if the bass isn't top tier stuff(if they have it that is). Dave's graph of Prometheus showed some decent output down to 20hz-30hz so while its definitely not worth a buy it could be worth a rental. Idk just a thought. Carry on.

#31 maxmercy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:38 AM

Here is Immortals Peak/Avg, from the data in Excel, as the databass grows, we will be able to compare any film to another!

JSS

PS - The 18Hz spike is from every time the Epirus Bow is drawn and fired. Powerful effect.

EDIT - New no-rolloff PvA trace graph added. Here's the breakdown for Immortals:

Level - 5 Stars (115.95dB composite)
Extension - 5 Stars (1Hz)
Dynamics - 3 Stars (24.85dB)
EDIT - Execution - 4 Stars - This film would have been just tremendous if it didn't clip noticeably. The mix team supposedly did it on purpose, as it was supposed to be an 'over the top' mix, but they ran into the buss limiters on many scenes.

Overall Rating - 4.25 Stars

Recommendation - RENT. You may like this film. The battles between Gods and Titans are pretty good. I will not own it, but I have it on loan from a friend.

JSS

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#32 maxmercy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:47 AM

Hey guys I gotta say everything looks awesome. I'm checking this thread everyday. Finally a low bass content thread dedicated to............low bass. What a crazy idea!

What do you think about the final rating being buy, rental, or no buy??? You could redbox it for $2 if the bass isn't top tier stuff(if they have it that is). Dave's graph of Prometheus showed some decent output down to 20hz-30hz so while its definitely not worth a buy it could be worth a rental. Idk just a thought. Carry on.


I like the buy/rent/no-buy idea. Although to be truly honest, I will not purchase a film solely for ULF (although it does play a part). Afer all, the most watched film in my theater in the past 3 months is The Natural......but I am a basshead, no question. I make my recommendation on Immortals a 'rent' then....and if you like it, buy.

JSS

#33 Madaeel

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:32 AM

I like the buy/rent/no-buy idea. Although to be truly honest, I will not purchase a film solely for ULF (although it does play a part). Afer all, the most watched film in my theater in the past 3 months is The Natural......but I am a basshead, no question. I make my recommendation on Immortals a 'rent' then....and if you like it, buy.

JSS


The Natural?? I'll have to check that out.

I agree it takes more then great bass to make a movie a buy. Would you want to make that a buy for those who just care about the bass in Immortals, and a rent for the actual movie? I wouldn't buy Immortals either nor would I use it as a demo. I did like the movie, but the movie isn't something you would watch over and over. So maybe we could rate them on bass first and foremost, and then as a side note whether it's worth a buy, rental, no buy as far as the movie goes just to give someone an idea of what to expect. Nothing too detailed.

#34 maxmercy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:05 AM

First post modified to show the buy/no-buy/rent recommendation. One more question about the ratings/measurements:

I could leave the power measurements in Pascal-Hertz, or put them in deciBel-Hz. PaHz are linear, and will show more change from one film to another, while dBHz will only show a 3dB increase when the numbers double. I think a linear based power measurement is better for this reason.

I will be out of town for the next few days, but will get back to measuring films later this week and building up a good data set.

JSS

#35 Bossobass Dave

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

The Natural?? I'll have to check that out.

I agree it takes more then great bass to make a movie a buy. Would you want to make that a buy for those who just care about the bass in Immortals, and a rent for the actual movie? I wouldn't buy Immortals either nor would I use it as a demo. I did like the movie, but the movie isn't something you would watch over and over. So maybe we could rate them on bass first and foremost, and then as a side note whether it's worth a buy, rental, no buy as far as the movie goes just to give someone an idea of what to expect. Nothing too detailed.


I agree that we should keep it bass-centric. I have lots of movies (including The Natural) that I love to watch for various reasons, but they aren't ever gonna be graphed for this thread.

If we keep it bass-centric, then rent/buy/no buy is great. For example, I loved Prometheus, so I bought it even though the low end is anemic as heck. (Yeah, i saw others post at AVS that it had amazing/powerful bass, etc., but, if Max graphs it, it will become evident that that ain't so). That means there are indeed other factors that would go into that rating.

I vote we put you and Ethan in charge of this, after seeing the awesome job you did on your shootout thread.

#36 Bossobass Dave

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:38 PM

Well folks, I got it to work. I can pull data from a SpecLab peak average graph, and I did a test-run on Immortals:

Immortals Bass Power

Overall Peak Power 535.7
0-10Hz Peak Power 28.4
10-20Hz Peak Power 60.4
20-40Hz Peak Power 99.8
40-80Hz Peak Power 183.8
80-160Hz Peak Power 163.3

Overall Average Power 31.8
0-10Hz Average Power 1.6
10-20Hz Average Power 3.6
20-40Hz Average Power 6.6
40-80Hz Avergae Power 10.6
80-160Hz Average Power 9.5

The power ratings are in PaHz. I essentially did a numerical integration to find the area under the curve for the peak and average graphs from 0-160Hz, and for each octave specified. Now we can have a truly apples/apples comparison for films.

One caveat: I do rolloff below 7Hz, -3dB down at 5Hz, and off the cliff under that. But for relative comparisons, this should be a very good tool.

As far as star ratings, Immortals gets 5 star extension, 5 star level, but 3 star for execution due to the clipping involved, which I believe is in the sattelite channels,average star level of 4.3. Overall buy/no-buy is a coin toss for me. Some great scenes, though, if you can ffwd through the BS parts.


JSS


This is too cool. Just too cool.

As for the <7 Hz, I can always run a direct digits spectrograph and extrapolate that part of it. It's only 1/2 of the 0-10 Hz leg, and I would only have to do it if there is actually any content there to look at in the first place. I'm going to go direct-digits anyway to eliminate the "you use a mic" whiners. That means I have to redo my entire library because the ones I've graphed (like Star Trek, Hulk, WOTW, X-Men 1st Class, etc.), will have to be in our list.

Either way, this is shaping up to become one heck of a standard for reference.

#37 maxmercy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:17 PM

This is too cool. Just too cool.

As for the <7 Hz, I can always run a direct digits spectrograph and extrapolate that part of it. It's only 1/2 of the 0-10 Hz leg, and I would only have to do it if there is actually any content there to look at in the first place. I'm going to go direct-digits anyway to eliminate the "you use a mic" whiners. That means I have to redo my entire library because the ones I've graphed (like Star Trek, Hulk, WOTW, X-Men 1st Class, etc.), will have to be in our list.

Either way, this is shaping up to become one heck of a standard for reference.


Better yet, I think I found a way over the weekend in which I should be able to correct for my rolloff, by using the 'Reference Curve' function on speclab. I would need to run a loopback with REW using the signal chain including the AVR, and then use the loopback file as a 'calfile' as long as the offsets are not large enough to add noise to the signal from the correction. I think I should be able to get flat to 3Hz or so without any noise above -70dBFS. Will get a chance to play with it on Saturday.

If it works, a tutorial will be put together on how to do this and be able to get nearly exact numbers, so others can contribute.

Do you think leaving it at PaHz is the right thing to do? I think so. I like linear, but can easily calculate both (the spreadsheet already does it).


Gotta go,

JSS

#38 Madaeel

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:42 PM

I agree that we should keep it bass-centric. I have lots of movies (including The Natural) that I love to watch for various reasons, but they aren't ever gonna be graphed for this thread.

If we keep it bass-centric, then rent/buy/no buy is great. For example, I loved Prometheus, so I bought it even though the low end is anemic as heck. (Yeah, i saw others post at AVS that it had amazing/powerful bass, etc., but, if Max graphs it, it will become evident that that ain't so). That means there are indeed other factors that would go into that rating.

I vote we put you and Ethan in charge of this, after seeing the awesome job you did on your shootout thread.


Works for me. If anyone has any recommendations for what they'd like to see for the movie ratings lmk.

This is too cool. Just too cool.

Either way, this is shaping up to become one heck of a standard for reference.


Agreed.

#39 laugsbach

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:40 AM

If you can post the expanded FR scaled graph here, that would be great...


Thanks Dave...I also e-mailed you. Here is the graph:

Attached File  SL WOTW SBA2496B.JPG   222.29KB   11 downloads


EDIT: Dave, there is an update available for SL ...should I DL it?

#40 laugsbach

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:44 AM

It was nice to meet you today Larry and Dominguez1 as well. I hope you enjoy the sub. Again if you have any questions or problems hit me up. Don't forget to take the handles off.


Hi Josh, same here...it was great to meet you and see your new space! Thanks for all of your help today with the speakon cable and I started to take off the handles and my wife said she liked them...I sure hope she doesn't hang any towels on it. :D




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