any design thoughts on my custom monitor build

[dreadknot55]

any thoughts on build concept such as driver alignment watt xover config , style or color

 

current concept config

is for this is a 300watt in at 4ohm for a 2way 3order butterworth at 400hz between a 

Dayton Audio RSS265HO-44 10" Reference HO DVC Subwoofer wired to 2 ohms an fed 220watts at 2ohms from xover an 

four FaitalPRO 4FE35 4" Professional Full-Range Woofer 16 Ohm wired in parallel to 4ohms from xover at 80watts

in a 2cft cab with twin 10in Dayton Audio  RSS265-PR

with both tuned to 14.8hz with a 24hz highpass

just to clairify my custom xovers are built like this

300watt 4ohm in 

220watt at 2ohm to lows 80watts at 4ohms to highs

crossed at 400hz in 3rd order butterworth

cabs planed outer dims are 29in h by 11.25in w by 18in d

inner with driver displacement factored is 2cft at 15in d by 9.25in w by 27.25in t 

1 rad front bottom woofer middle front an back baffle 1.5in thich with half inch flush cut with 1in sides an 0.875in top an bottom

one rad aft bottom

                              custom wood an brick stand comprised of two layered mdf caps an three concret bricks each 33lbs at 4in by 8in by 16in

 

all colors as seen to be used

[peniku8]

You're gonna have a really bad time if your crossovers are not specific to the components and the cab they're built into, unless you're planning to throw a dsp at it

[dreadknot55]

the crossover was built specifically for the stated drivers an the cabinet ft3 for the sub an rads the four full-range drivers will be in a sealed compartment  

[Ricci]

With four 4" fullrange drivers covering most of the frequency range how are you planning to deal with comb-filtering, HF beaming, off-axis power response, etc?

[dreadknot55]

i have no idea , though some reviewers from partsexpress told my when i asked a similar ? that with this drive comb-filtering, HF beaming, off-axis power response, would be a problem when the drivers that close but that farther apart i would

my primary resoune for picking the 4 fatial is the fq response an ohm the fq is smooth way out into the high with no bad spike an the ohm allows me to wire in parallel to 4ohms for the xover at 80watts to the high not to blow past the cone excursion limit

i do have as of 3days ago both the Dayton Audio RSS265HO-44 10" 

fyi the xovers high are attenuated down by -4db

i would prefur to go with a singal 8in fullrange if i could find one with similar fq response an be 4ohm with a 100rms that was under 150$

with a Sensitivity 94dB an a (Xmax) of atleast 10mm

with a frd zma file for modeling
 

[dreadknot55]

i would almost go for a pair of GRS PT5010-8 10" Planar Mid/Tweeter 8 Ohm stacked in a horizontal config on the front with a -6db notch filter at 8500khz to smooth out the spike but i dont know if anyone has tried that before

[SME]

On 2/23/2021 at 2:32 PM, dreadknot55 said:

i would almost go for a pair of GRS PT5010-8 10" Planar Mid/Tweeter 8 Ohm stacked in a horizontal config on the front with a -6db notch filter at 8500khz to smooth out the spike but i dont know if anyone has tried that before

Why two?  Are you trying to get super loud treble?  Realize that FR measurements for drivers are usually done on a very large baffle.  A driver with good looking measurements on a large baffle likely won't look or sound as good on a smaller baffle and no waveguide, especially with three other adjacent drivers to interfere with it.  Panels radiating through the same rough area won't be much better in this regard.

How committed are you to your design?  Can you make it taller and/or go 3-way?  It's very hard to find a good driver to cover 400 Hz+ unless you're going to use a coaxial of some sort (effectively making the speaker 3-way).  If you're already committed to the cabinet dimensions and woofer choice, this might be a good option:

https://www.parts-express.com/B-C-10CXN64-8-10-Professional-Neodymium-Coaxial-Speaker-80-x-80-Degree-8-Ohm-294-5962

 

[SME]

Hmm, I can't seem to edit my post above.

Anyway, I see that that coax is probably out of your price range. Another caveat is that the crossover design between mid and top might be tricky.  Still, you'll be hard-pressed to find a better performing combo for 400 Hz+ in a 10" circular format.  Another option would to be to install a couple small mids (like those 4") together with a small WG or even a dome tweeter, crossed at like 1500 Hz.  Though obviously you're going to have to give up some mid output for that.

I'm wondering though, why do you think you need 12 mm Xmax from a mid driver that only goes to 400 Hz?  You do realize that you need 4X displacement to get the same SPL every time you drop an octave (until the PRs start to do their thing)?  If your 8" mid is doing 12 mm at 400 Hz with any realistic music, then those woofers will be turned into confetti by the content at 50 Hz.

So I guess a lot depends on what your budget allows and how much you want to compromise quality for output.  If you just want something LOUD, then your original design will get the job done, but if you care about upper-mid / high quality, you options are pretty limited from here.

[dreadknot55]

 i like that B&C 10CXN64-8 10" for my mids to high but is ther any thing like it in a 4ohm 6in version under 200$

[dreadknot55]

what do you think about using  the PRV Audio 5MR450-NDY-4 5" Midrange Neodymium Woofer 4 Ohm as a mid to hhigh with notch filters at 5000 , 7000 , an 10000khz to control the fq spikes

[dreadknot55]

or could i use a set of the  GRS PT5010-8 10"  with one front an one rear like deftechs dipole towers

[SME]

I think you need to clarify, to us as well as maybe yourself, what your design priorities are here.  Do you care about sound quality at all?  Or are you trying to go as loud as possible as cheap as possible?  Or are you willing to give up some output for better sound quality?  Or save up more money for better components?

You also haven't said anything about the intended application except "monitors".  Usually accuracy and sound quality are prized in monitor design, and often the monitors are used at pretty short distances and so don't necessarily need a lot of output.  How close will you be sitting?  What are the room dimensions?  How loud do you intend to listen?

23 hours ago, dreadknot55 said:

 i like that B&C 10CXN64-8 10" for my mids to high but is ther any thing like it in a 4ohm 6in version under 200$

I think they may have a couple 6" coaxial designs, some might be 4 ohm and/or under $200.  You can look around at PE or whatever.  But I have to ask, why the interest in 6" now?  You do realize you won't get nearly as much output from a 6" as from a 10"?  And lower cost drivers will typically have smaller magnets which usually means less output as well.

22 hours ago, dreadknot55 said:

what do you think about using  the PRV Audio 5MR450-NDY-4 5" Midrange Neodymium Woofer 4 Ohm as a mid to hhigh with notch filters at 5000 , 7000 , an 10000khz to control the fq spikes

I think it's only adequate if you don't care about sound quality.  The peaks are caused by cone break-up which involves an non-pistonic resonant motion of the cone, which also causes the directional dispersion of sound to change abruptly near those frequencies.  Put another way, those peaks look quite different depending on what angle you take measurements from.  You can suppress the peaks with a notch filter, but you cannot fix the dispersion abnormality which will occur on top of the usual dispersion problems of having a large driver handling high frequencies.  The driver also may behave chaotically around those resonances, particularly the higher frequency ones, which could cause unpredictable interaction with your notches.

Realize that break-up is a problem that affects all drivers at higher frequencies, but smaller drivers can go higher.  This along with the overall narrowing of high frequency dispersion from large radiating areas is why tweeters are almost always small.  The best, and often expensive high frequency drivers use an exceptionally stiff and light material like beryllium to push the break-up frequency as high as possible.  Hence, any kind of "full-range" or "mid" driver will usually give poor treble quality.  It's just physics really.

Also, have you designed a crossover before?  Three separate notch filters in addition to the rest of the filtering will make for a fairly complicated crossover and possibly a fair amount of expense for those parts.  Even a simple crossover can be tricky to get the best sound from.

23 hours ago, dreadknot55 said:

or could i use a set of the  GRS PT5010-8 10"  with one front an one rear like deftechs dipole towers

That's a little better than stacking them on the front, and is probably better than either the 4 x 4" configuration or a single 5".  Still, it's own specs indicate it tops out at 8 kHz, which isn't going to sound so good on top of the other issues.  I'd bet a lot of people who buy those use a super tweeter and accept  an imperfect crossover as one can't really cross to that thing cleanly at so high a frequency.  What appears to be its most attractive feature is that it's open backed, and so a single unit can be mounted in a thin panel to make a dipole.  If you intend to mount one or two onto a cabinet you'll likely need to give them their own airspace separate from the woofers, and it's nt clear how such a mounting will affect their performance.

[dreadknot55]

with the B-C-10CXN64-8-10 could i wire in parallel to 4ohms with a added crossover on the hf termanils like the Dayton Audio 2k-HPF-8 High Pass Speaker Crossover 2,000 Hz 12 dB/Octave

[dreadknot55]

does anyone know were i can get the Ciare  CH252 any  legit website

 

[dreadknot55]

is ther a equivalent to the Ciare CH252 for under 175$ that has near same fq response an same ohm an wattage

[dreadknot55]

does anyone know if is www.audiovideoparts.com reputable

 

https://www.audiovideoparts.com/ecommerce/en/1724-ciare-ch201-bicono-200mm-200w-max-4i.html

[SME]

16 hours ago, dreadknot55 said:

with the B-C-10CXN64-8-10 could i wire in parallel to 4ohms with a added crossover on the hf termanils like the Dayton Audio 2k-HPF-8 High Pass Speaker Crossover 2,000 Hz 12 dB/Octave

No, but not because of the different impedances.  The biggest issue is that the high frequency section is a lot more efficient than the low frequency section and needs attenuation to play at the right level.  Another issue is that you really need a high low pass filter for the mid or else it will make a mess of your upper mid response.  And you probably want to cross closer to 1500 Hz.  More generally to get good sound quality you really need a crossover that's custom designed for the combination of drivers, which for your case is actually 3 different drivers.

In your first post, you said you'd designed custom crossovers, so I figured you had some experience with crossover design.  Your later responses indicate that the subject is quite new to you.  I'm not sure how interested or inclined you are to learn about crossover design.  It won't be easy unless you have a fair amount of skill with math and electric circuits as well as some basic acoustics knowledge.  If not, then you'll want to plan on investing a lot of time learning.  You'll also need to invest in a measurement system and learn how to use it.  Crossovers are even tougher for passive 3-way systems like you're planning and any situation in which the drivers are far off in level.  If you go this route, you'll have a much easier time if you have active DSP available so that you can experiment with different configurations without having to buy and swap out parts, but this means buying more amps and possible an external DSP unit if your amps don't have DSP functionality built-in.

Perhaps a better idea is to look for an existing design to build.   I'm sorry I can't offer much in the way of recommendation, especially given your limited budget and the fact that you've already committed to woofers.  I think you'll want to look at some other forums, like diyaudio.com (more music oriented) or the DIY section on avsforum.com (more home theater oriented).  Maybe you can find a design that incorporates the woofers you bought.  If not, you might look at 2-way designs and consider doing an active crossover to the woofers.  Alas, this also means buying more amps and possibly an external DSP.   

A third option is to not worry about sound quality and just build something, trying to learn as much as you can along the way.  The design you suggested (assuming the crossovers adequately protect the drivers) should certainly make soun, and quite a lot of it.  It probably won't sound good in the upper mids or treble.  A speaker with a single GRS planar radiator may sound a bit better but not great and probably won't play as loud either.  It might sound better than the Ciare CH201 you're looking at.  The problem with the CH201 apart from the steep drop above 10 kHz is the horn termination being too short, which messes up frequency response between 3-6 kHz.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

[dreadknot55]

10 hours ago, SME said:

No, but not because of the different impedances.  The biggest issue is that the high frequency section is a lot more efficient than the low frequency section and needs attenuation to play at the right level.  Another issue is that you really need a high low pass filter for the mid or else it will make a mess of your upper mid response.  And you probably want to cross closer to 1500 Hz.  More generally to get good sound quality you really need a crossover that's custom designed for the combination of drivers, which for your case is actually 3 different drivers.

In your first post, you said you'd designed custom crossovers, so I figured you had some experience with crossover design.  Your later responses indicate that the subject is quite new to you.  I'm not sure how interested or inclined you are to learn about crossover design.  It won't be easy unless you have a fair amount of skill with math and electric circuits as well as some basic acoustics knowledge.  If not, then you'll want to plan on investing a lot of time learning.  You'll also need to invest in a measurement system and learn how to use it.  Crossovers are even tougher for passive 3-way systems like you're planning and any situation in which the drivers are far off in level.  If you go this route, you'll have a much easier time if you have active DSP available so that you can experiment with different configurations without having to buy and swap out parts, but this means buying more amps and possible an external DSP unit if your amps don't have DSP functionality built-in.

Perhaps a better idea is to look for an existing design to build.   I'm sorry I can't offer much in the way of recommendation, especially given your limited budget and the fact that you've already committed to woofers.  I think you'll want to look at some other forums, like diyaudio.com (more music oriented) or the DIY section on avsforum.com (more home theater oriented).  Maybe you can find a design that incorporates the woofers you bought.  If not, you might look at 2-way designs and consider doing an active crossover to the woofers.  Alas, this also means buying more amps and possibly an external DSP.   

A third option is to not worry about sound quality and just build something, trying to learn as much as you can along the way.  The design you suggested (assuming the crossovers adequately protect the drivers) should certainly make soun, and quite a lot of it.  It probably won't sound good in the upper mids or treble.  A speaker with a single GRS planar radiator may sound a bit better but not great and probably won't play as loud either.  It might sound better than the Ciare CH201 you're looking at.  The problem with the CH201 apart from the steep drop above 10 kHz is the horn termination being too short, which messes up frequency response between 3-6 kHz.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

THANKS FOR ALL THAT 

3things

1. i didnt build the xovers i had them made by Bill Daniels at D+S TECH LABS 

as iv had a few some far made by him an they work fine

2.have you heard of or know if is www.audiovideoparts.com reputable to buy from

3. what do you think of the https://www.audiovideoparts.com/ecommerce/en/1725-ciare-ch250-bicono-250mm-150w-max-4i.html

Ciare  CH250
 

http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/Ciare/CH250

the xover i had made has a attenuation down by -6db past 400hz

[peniku8]

On 3/1/2021 at 8:26 PM, dreadknot55 said:

1. i didnt build the xovers i had them made by Bill Daniels at D+S TECH LABS 

as iv had a few some far made by him an they work fine

Designing a crossover requires measuring the drivers' frequency and impedance response, which means you'll have to build and fully assemble the speaker to do so. If that hasn't been done, the crossover is more or less a random assembly of components and it delivering optimal results is about as likely as winning the lottery. Like SME already mentioned, the question here is if you want to:

-design and build a speaker outperforming a store-bought solution at the same price or for even less money (typical DIY approach)

-design and build a speaker just for fun, with no particular focus on the quality of the final product

-design and build a very specific and unique speaker not available on the market

If your goal is the first on the list you'd be best off with building an existing design that fits your bill. If it's the last, get ready for dozens of hours of reading, because there is lots of knowledge out there, plus spending ~300$ on measurement equipment for FR and impedance sweeps. If it's the 2nd, stop worrying, build something and ignore our nit-picking

[dreadknot55]

ok 

[SME]

On 3/1/2021 at 12:26 PM, dreadknot55 said:

THANKS FOR ALL THAT 

3things

1. i didnt build the xovers i had them made by Bill Daniels at D+S TECH LABS 

as iv had a few some far made by him an they work fine

I see.  Does he work with impedance data and measurements for the particular drivers?  That's necessary to get a high quality result, and then said crossover won't deliver equivalent results with different drivers.

On 3/1/2021 at 12:26 PM, dreadknot55 said:

2.have you heard of or know if is www.audiovideoparts.com reputable to buy from

I have no idea, sorry.

On 3/1/2021 at 12:26 PM, dreadknot55 said:

3. what do you think of the https://www.audiovideoparts.com/ecommerce/en/1725-ciare-ch250-bicono-250mm-150w-max-4i.html

 

Ciare  CH250
 

http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/Ciare/CH250

the xover i had made has a attenuation down by -6db past 400hz

See my last post: "The problem with the CH201 apart from the steep drop above 10 kHz is the horn termination being too short, which messes up frequency response between 3-6 kHz."  I personally wouldn't choose it for any of my designs, but I may have different priorities than you.

[peniku8]

I do wonder what happened to this project. Seems to me like the amount of work (and knowledge) you need to put into speaker design caught him off guard and demotivated him.

[Ricci]

It happens...

Maybe the OP went down the rabbit hole and has been absorbing knowledge for months. Who knows.