maxmercy

The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)

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We have another 5-Star Film!

 

HellBoy 2:

 

Level - 5 Stars (112.66dB composite)

Extension - 5 Stars (2Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (27.87dB)

Execution - 5 Stars by Poll

 

Overall - 5 Stars!!!

 

Recommendation - BUY.

 

This one has some clipping as well, but none in the LFE channel, and quite controlled (barely exceeded 0dBFS) in the LCR.  No clipping in the surrounds.

 

This one shows promise....and everyone agrees, it is a full 5-Star film.

 

 

JSS

post-20-0-63672600-1377776728_thumb.jpg

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Never seen any Hellboy, never seen Epic.  

 

How about Open Range? It is 10 years ago or so, but a good film and exhilarating gunfire. I seem to remember energy all the way down,...but I'm uncertain about the characteristics; ie., how often and how deep. It's demo worthy stuff regardless how deep. One of the finest gunfights ever produced.     

 

 

The Hurt Locker:

 

Level - 4 Stars (111.53)

Extension - 5 Stars (1Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (32.08dB)

Execution - Will poll, my vote is 5 Stars, even though it clips (see attached).

 

Recommendation - By Poll

 

This is a great film, and tremendous soundtrack.  The LCRS don't clip as badly as the LFE channel.  It may have been intentional, though.

 

JSS

 

 

You're right, I agree. The Hurt Locker is a great film, and the sound, in all aspects, is just fantastic.  

 

How significant is the clipping you illustrated in the submitted image? What I mean is how often do you encounter that heavily lopped off clipping, and can you or anyone quantify the subjective end result? How would that sound? You've been pouring through all these soundtracks, there would be few (if anyone) outside the industry more adept to assign some relative importance to such an occurrence. I realize unless we had an interview with the sound team that participated, we're not going to know for sure. But wth, we can speculate.  

 

As you said it could be intentional, for effect, etc. But there are soundtracks that possess what many would consider inexcusable mistakes. I've performed my share of live recording, even sound effects. For fidelity reasons, you always want to hit the media as hot as possible without overload. It could've been anything from a clip that they really needed to include despite it's clipping. Or just as simple as aggressive limiting by design.  

 

Although I've not read or participated in any such discussions, I'm guessing this issue has been fully explored before. I'm curious what the LFE signal sounds like as one bumps it up until severely flat topped like that. Anyone here performed such experiments? With the inherent filtering accompanying the LFE channel, I'm wondering what subjective audible effect such flat topping has on the final result. Another way to ram more average level down the pipe? The LF drives aren't going to track the horizontal component of the signal, so is this intentional simply for more level? Any idea of the approx. freq range of the waveform? Looks like ~50hz or so, in the center of the graph.  

 

I've experienced The Hurt Locker over many occasions/many systems. Actually, it's my experience that it's used quite often in CEDIA/tradeshow demonstrations. In addition to my own system, I've seen it over some bad-ass, highly capable systems. I've not been actively looking for issues, but I've never heard anything but first rate audio excellence out of that release.  

 

Maybe I need to pay closer attention, is there any release known for audible LFE channel clipping issues?

 

Thanks

 

     

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Never seen any Hellboy, never seen Epic.  

 

How about Open Range? It is 10 years ago or so, but a good film and exhilarating gunfire. I seem to remember energy all the way down,...but I'm uncertain about the characteristics; ie., how often and how deep. It's demo worthy stuff regardless how deep. One of the finest gunfights ever produced.     

 

Open Range is in the queue.

 

 

 

 

You're right, I agree. The Hurt Locker is a great film, and the sound, in all aspects, is just fantastic.  

 

How significant is the clipping you illustrated in the submitted image? What I mean is how often do you encounter that heavily lopped off clipping, and can you or anyone quantify the subjective end result? How would that sound? You've been pouring through all these soundtracks, there would be few (if anyone) outside the industry more adept to assign some relative importance to such an occurrence. I realize unless we had an interview with the sound team that participated, we're not going to know for sure. But wth, we can speculate.  

 

The short answer: It depends....so many variables.  In both DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD, the LFE channel is full bandwidth.  It can contain 20kHz if it wants to.  The signal chain almost always applies a lowpass, though.  AVRs have an adjustable one for LFE (I set mine as high as I can to catch everything I can that is encoded, Like Loki trying to pick up Thor's hammer in the crater unsuccessfully, HUGE 140Hz content), and almost all sub amps have one built in as well.

 

As you said it could be intentional, for effect, etc. But there are soundtracks that possess what many would consider inexcusable mistakes. I've performed my share of live recording, even sound effects. For fidelity reasons, you always want to hit the media as hot as possible without overload. It could've been anything from a clip that they really needed to include despite it's clipping. Or just as simple as aggressive limiting by design.

 

This could be hard limiting, because it is below 0dBFS, like all the other channels. 

 

Although I've not read or participated in any such discussions, I'm guessing this issue has been fully explored before. I'm curious what the LFE signal sounds like as one bumps it up until severely flat topped like that. Anyone here performed such experiments? With the inherent filtering accompanying the LFE channel, I'm wondering what subjective audible effect such flat topping has on the final result. Another way to ram more average level down the pipe? The LF drives aren't going to track the horizontal component of the signal, so is this intentional simply for more level? Any idea of the approx. freq range of the waveform? Looks like ~50hz or so, in the center of the graph.  

 

Curious that you ask.....I ran some experiments on this very thing.  It is a 100Hz waveform just to the right of center, with 0.01sec period.  If I generate a 100Hz waveform at -0.5dBFS, and amplify it by 6dB (clipping it all to Hell), then turn it down by 2dB, I get almost the same waveform displayed (clipped at -2dBFS).  When played back, it sounds like a bad fuzz pedal, and definitely not like a clean tone, all odd-order harmonics.  But if I apply a 250Hz lowpass at 12dB/octave to the clipped signal, it then appears to be soft-limited, with smoother edges, and has a much nicer distortion profile, and sounds like a moderate tube overdrive, instead of a hard fuzz.  Still odd-orders, but only the 300Hz component is readily audible.  It sounds much cleaner.  If the mixing stages have lowpass circuitry built into their signal chains, nothing will warn them that they are clipping the LFE channel, as it will only sound mildly overdriven.  They may find that if they remove lowpasses from it, that they run into bad sounds with hard limiting or 0dBFS.  I think that they may be oblivious due to the lowpasses that may be in place, both on the board, and in the crossover/amp chain.  I usually see clipping in the center channel first, then LR, and then surrounds, then LFE.  I see the least amount of clipping on the LFE channel, but when it is there (Immortals, The Hurt Locker), it is pretty bad, but may be insignificant due to processing in amps, an AVR or mixing board.

 

I've experienced The Hurt Locker over many occasions/many systems. Actually, it's my experience that it's used quite often in CEDIA/tradeshow demonstrations. In addition to my own system, I've seen it over some bad-ass, highly capable systems. I've not been actively looking for issues, but I've never heard anything but first rate audio excellence out of that release.  

 

Maybe because all of those systems low-passed.  The difference is night and day.  See attached.  100Hz Sine, 100Hz clipped waveform, 250Hz lowpass, 120Hz lowpass.....The 120Hz lowpass has less than 4% harmonic distortion, with the 300Hz component over 32dB down from the 100Hz fundamental.  With LCRS blaring at the same time, no trained ear would pick that up, it would all be masked.

 

Maybe I need to pay closer attention, is there any release known for audible LFE channel clipping issues?

 

Immortals clipped every channel, but it was nearly pure ULF square waves on some portions of the LFE.  With a ULF Square wave, that's a LOT of LF and midbass harmonics, which are audible and dissonant.  Again, it may have been intentional, they may have wanted the odd harmonics in order for a 'louder sounding' sound.....Poseidon slamming into the sea and the resultant oil tsunami is a pretty bad scene for distorted sound....

 

But Tron:Legacy, famous for clipping every other channel, had a pristine, clip-free LFE channel......

 

Thanks

 

I was surprised to see it too.

 

See answers in bold above.

 

HTH,

 

JSS

 

PS - I liked HellBoy 1 better than 2, but the second film had more ULF.

post-20-0-46141300-1377805099_thumb.png

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Another old Request:  Monster House

 

Level - 3 Stars (109.11dB Composite)

Extension - 4 Stars (14Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (30.77dB)

Execution - 4 Stars

 

Overall - 4 Stars

 

Recommendation - BUY

 

Well done film.  Not the best, but very well done.  It does clip the LFE in one scene (see attached)

 

JSS

post-20-0-86680100-1377813921_thumb.png

post-20-0-00932700-1377813939_thumb.jpg

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Monster house is another "Randy Thom" movie from 2006,long time since i watched though,remember the end as nice (bass wise) dont wanna spoil anything.

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Here they are:

 

Your scene:

 

post-20-0-60072600-1377907384_thumb.jpg

 

Loudest scene in the film, peaks at 124.7dB: (around 1:27:50)

 

post-20-0-93733800-1377907390_thumb.jpg

 

JSS

 

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Just rewatched Hellboy II for the first time in about 4 years.  Hadn't watched it since I got my subs.  Definitely a very bass-y movie.  I always find it interesting that the 5 star bass movies always seem to have a very engaging and dynamic sound track over all so it's hard for me to differentiate whether I like it because the bass is done very well or because the whole sound track is done very well.  I'm re-watching it again right now just to evaluate it some more.  But like Phantom, I'm leaning towards another 5 star vote.  I'm good to only 10hz (not flat reference capable to 10hz, but probably good to 108db peaks at 10hz) so I probably can't appreciate the movie as much as I would like.  I've ordered a pair of what Funk Audio calls double 18.0s to go along with the standard 18.0s I already have so I hope to improve on my situation and play a little more with the big boys.

 

I'd never seen Hurt Locker before but just picked it up from Best Buy on my way home from work today.  Hope I'm not disappointed.

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i am the only one that kind of hates explotions?? sure it gives you a "muppet moment" but no clean bas as likw from darlas tapping on the tank findig nemo+others

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Battle:LA and WotW have some of the most well done explosions. Transformers 1&2 have good ones as well. They at least try to replicate what a real explosion sounds like (Tom Danley's Fireworks track is also a good example). Explosions 'slam' in real life, not 'roar' as they often do in films.....but they are also 130-140+dB events, so sound designers have to get creative in replicating the feeling in the limited SPL range they have available.

 

JSS

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Epic ends up with 3 Stars and Rent.

 

The Hurt Locker added to poll.

 

JSS

 

Sorry. I haven't been voting on the movies I haven't seen and so far, there's been quite a few!

 

Voted for Hurt Locker.

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The Great Gatsby (2013) (DTS-HD MA 5.1)

 

Level        - 2 Star (106.1dB composite)

Extension - 3 Stars (15Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (32.82dB)

Execution - 3 Stars

 

Overall     - 3.25 Stars

 

Recommendation - Rent

 

A fun remake of F. Scott Fitzgerald's classic, this movie updates the Roaring 20s setting with contemporary hip-hop from Jay Z.  While not for everyone, the style hearkens back to the remake of "Romeo & Juliet," another DiCaprio film.  Though not an action flick in levels, TGG makes pretty ambitious use of the LFE bandwidth.  Lots of real 16Hz organ notes and fun bass sweeps (see attached), plus absolutely ridiculous dynamics due to the overall low level of the mix.

 

PvA:

 

post-17-0-69380900-1377963911_thumb.png

 

SL Graph of the sweeps from 0:21:14-0:22:57

 

post-17-0-07295200-1377963927_thumb.jpg

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Nube...have you tried the movie "Inside" a french horror movie,needs to be the french dts soundtrack.

got some nice ulf in this one,try it.

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JSS,

 

 

"Curious that you ask.....I ran some experiments on this very thing.  It is a 100Hz waveform just to the right of center, with 0.01sec period.  If I generate a 100Hz waveform at -0.5dBFS, and amplify it by 6dB (clipping it all to Hell), then turn it down by 2dB, I get almost the same waveform displayed (clipped at -2dBFS).  When played back, it sounds like a bad fuzz pedal, and definitely not like a clean tone, all odd-order harmonics.  But if I apply a 250Hz lowpass at 12dB/octave to the clipped signal, it then appears to be soft-limited, with smoother edges, and has a much nicer distortion profile, and sounds like a moderate tube overdrive, instead of a hard fuzz.  Still odd-orders, but only the 300Hz component is readily audible.  It sounds much cleaner.  If the mixing stages have lowpass circuitry built into their signal chains, nothing will warn them that they are clipping the LFE channel, as it will only sound mildly overdriven.  They may find that if they remove lowpasses from it, that they run into bad sounds with hard limiting or 0dBFS.  I think that they may be oblivious due to the lowpasses that may be in place, both on the board, and in the crossover/amp chain.  I usually see clipping in the center channel first, then LR, and then surrounds, then LFE.  I see the least amount of clipping on the LFE channel, but when it is there (Immortals, The Hurt Locker), it is pretty bad, but may be insignificant due to processing in amps, an AVR or mixing board"

 

"Maybe because all of those systems low-passed.  The difference is night and day.  See attached.  100Hz Sine, 100Hz clipped waveform, 250Hz lowpass, 120Hz lowpass.....The 120Hz lowpass has less than 4% harmonic distortion, with the 300Hz component over 32dB down from the 100Hz fundamental.  With LCRS blaring at the same time, no trained ear would pick that up, it would all be masked."

 

 

"Immortals clipped every channel, but it was nearly pure ULF square waves on some portions of the LFE.  With a ULF Square wave, that's a LOT of LF and midbass harmonics, which are audible and dissonant.  Again, it may have been intentional, they may have wanted the odd harmonics in order for a 'louder sounding' sound.....Poseidon slamming into the sea and the resultant oil tsunami is a pretty bad scene for distorted sound...."

 

"But Tron:Legacy, famous for clipping every other channel, had a pristine, clip-free LFE channel......"

 

 

I really appreciate the thorough response, interesting. LFE overload/clipping is something I've not given a great deal of consideration to. Never saw Immortals, but I do recall seeing much discussion regarding the clipping, but not interested, I glossed right over it.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

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Do you have the 3-way mains done? Those sure look sharp, and by your comments on AVS and the terrific form factor, they should be popular items over at DIYSG. I will start this Fall on my 'Super-Mal' mains and center with 'Big-Mal' surrounds, and a new subwoofer system to get me into single digits.....I will finally get to play with the big boys....

 

JSS

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The Grey:

 

Level - 5 Stars (112.57dB composite)

Extension - 3 Stars (18Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (30.97dB)

Execution - 4 Stars by poll

 

Overall - 4.25 Stars

 

Recommendation - Rent

 

 

JSS

post-20-0-09966100-1378174970_thumb.jpg

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