Paradigm Persona Sub

[xcd]

I'm considering the Paradigm Persona Sub. http://persona.paradigm.com/persona/specs.php?model=persona-sub

It's a six 8-in driver design, 1700W RMS 3400W peak power

 

I wanted to get some first-hand impressions or feedback of the product. A lot of people I talked to either love or hate it, but few seem to have actually used it. How is it? I will be using it 70% for HT and 30% for music.

[dgage]

I have 2 concerns with that sub.  

1.  Where are you going to place it so that you don’t have potential phase issues with some sound coming directly off of the drivers while other sound waves will bounce off of the wall or furniture?  

2.  They mention 12 Hz output in-room, which I can believe but I’m concerned it might not be very loud and impactful.  

3.  And just thought of a third when I found the price.  I think you could do much better with some of the Internet-direct 18” or similar subwoofers.  Funk, JTR, PSA, Seaton, or Deep Sea Sound would probably perform better at a much better value.  FYI, I started Deep Sea Sound.

[Ricci]

Judging by me experience with the Sub2 it's probably a well engineered sub that makes the most out of a small sealed cabinet volume. With that said it will still have very real output limitations due to the iron law. I didn't look up the price but I'm sure it's substantial as well. In a nutshell it's probably an excellent sub but it will have very low bang for the buck.

[Kvalsvoll]

Reading about this, and realize I actually can comment, because i do not sell anything to the u.s. - so, I look for price and speccs.

Found a price: USD6500? Is that correct? Good, a manufacturer must also be able to make a living out of this, and compared to various other hifi products, I don't see anything wrong. 

Speccs are more difficult to find. On the manufacturer site I can not find any specifications for output capacity, and from the specification for frequency response it rolls of around 19Hz. Some of the speccs do not make sense - response at 30 degrees off-axis for a small sub? Really? - and instead of specifying voice coil length, would it not make sense to list the xmax instead?

6x 8" is a little more than a 18", then factor in that the 18" will most likely have longer usable excursion, and you have a reasonable estimate for output capacity by looking at typical 18" sealed designs listed here on data-bass.

[xcd]

Now, the Paradigm Persona Sub is out of the running. But I still want to get something on the smaller side physically. 

 

How about JL's E-Sub e112-GLOSS? It looked to be pretty well reviewed on this site

https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=104

http://www.jlaudio.ca/e112-gloss-home-audio-e-sub-powered-subwoofers-96279

[Infrasonic]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 7:22 AM, dgage said:

I have 2 concerns with that sub.  

1.  Where are you going to place it so that you don’t have potential phase issues with some sound coming directly off of the drivers while other sound waves will bounce off of the wall or furniture?  

 

Like a dual opposed sub?

Lol...not sure if serious, David. ?

[dgage]

5 minutes ago, Infrasonic said:

Like a dual opposed sub?

Lol...not sure if serious, David. ?

Haha. Very serious.  I don't like dual-opposed subs for that very reason as too many times I've seen/heard them with one driver facing out into the room and the other firing into the wall.  And since both drivers, now with completely different phase and frequency differences, are driven by the same amplifier/signal, you have to DSP them together.  You'll never get an optimal setting that way and what I usually heard, namely smeared sound bears that out.  However, if dual-opposed subs can be placed along a wall and one driver isn't firing into some object, they can work well.  However, I just don't feel that their advantages outweigh their disadvantages in placement with the primary advantage being an inert cabinet since the drivers cancel out vibrations.  A well-built sub doesn't need dual-opposed drivers to still have a strong, vibration-free cabinet.

Now I've heard one setup with dual-opposed subs that was about the best setup I've heard and you've heard it too, which is Brandon's dual-opposed setup.  His quad boxes were placed optimally in the front corners at a 45 degree angle to the side wall and front wall.  Add in the fact that he had one pair on the floor and the other pair stacked near the ceiling on top of his speakers, he had one of the best front-sub setups available and it sounded like it.  I looked for a picture of the setup he had then with the Danley's but couldn't find it.  I'll see if I can get him to send me a picture.

By the way, this post is sort of ironic as I'm thinking of offering a dual-opposed subwoofer that I was previously opposed to, primarily because a customer wants it to be able to place it correctly parallel to a wall.

[Infrasonic]

14 minutes ago, dgage said:

Haha. Very serious.  I don't like dual-opposed subs for that very reason as too many times I've seen/heard them with one driver facing out into the room and the other firing into the wall.  And since both drivers, now with completely different phase and frequency differences, are driven by the same amplifier/signal, you have to DSP them together.  You'll never get an optimal setting that way and what I usually heard, namely smeared sound bears that out.  However, if dual-opposed subs can be placed along a wall and one driver isn't firing into some object, they can work well.  However, I just don't feel that their advantages outweigh their disadvantages in placement with the primary advantage being an inert cabinet since the drivers cancel out vibrations.  A well-built sub doesn't need dual-opposed drivers to still have a strong, vibration-free cabinet.

Ahhha. Okay.

14 minutes ago, dgage said:

Now I've heard one setup with dual-opposed subs that was about the best setup I've heard and you've heard it too, which is Brandon's dual-opposed setup.  His quad boxes were placed optimally in the front corners at a 45 degree angle to the side wall and front wall.  Add in the fact that he had one pair on the floor and the other pair stacked near the ceiling on top of his speakers, he had one of the best front-sub setups available and it sounded like it.  I looked for a picture of the setup he had then with the Danley's but couldn't find it.  I'll see if I can get him to send me a picture.

Lol, don't act like I wasn't there.  

14 minutes ago, dgage said:

By the way, this post is sort of ironic as I'm thinking of offering a dual-opposed subwoofer that I was previously opposed to, primarily because a customer wants it to be able to place it correctly parallel to a wall.

Mmm. Mhmm. Good luck, sir!

[dgage]

And here is the picture of Brandon's previous setup that we knew and loved.  The speakers on the left and right are Danley SH50s and the center is a Danley SH96 I believe.  The 4 DO boxes have the old popular Stereo Integrity HT-18 entry driver that so many used and still do.  Really was a nice setup.  His current setup has some nicer JBL 4637 speakers and one of Josh's SKHORN subs.

[SME]

On 9/4/2018 at 9:30 AM, Ricci said:

Judging by me experience with the Sub2 it's probably a well engineered sub that makes the most out of a small sealed cabinet volume. With that said it will still have very real output limitations due to the iron law. I didn't look up the price but I'm sure it's substantial as well. In a nutshell it's probably an excellent sub but it will have very low bang for the buck.

The Iron Law as it's stated traditionally doesn't take into account motor force.  Higher motor force can overcome small box limitations, up to a point at which increasing motor force becomes impractical and/or too expensive.

On the other hand, I don't find "9.2-lb (4.16 kg) hard ferrite magnet / motor structure" to be a particularly impressive figure.  If they used 9.2 lbs of Nd then maybe there's something to talk about.  A more remarkable spec is the voice coil diameter: "1-1/2" (38mm) four-layer long-excursion voice coils".  Like wow!  I think my compression drivers (tweeters) have 1.7" diameter voice coils.  I wonder how they stay cool with ~300W each?

[SME]

4 hours ago, dgage said:

Haha. Very serious.  I don't like dual-opposed subs for that very reason as too many times I've seen/heard them with one driver facing out into the room and the other firing into the wall.  And since both drivers, now with completely different phase and frequency differences, are driven by the same amplifier/signal, you have to DSP them together.  You'll never get an optimal setting that way and what I usually heard, namely smeared sound bears that out.  However, if dual-opposed subs can be placed along a wall and one driver isn't firing into some object, they can work well.  However, I just don't feel that their advantages outweigh their disadvantages in placement with the primary advantage being an inert cabinet since the drivers cancel out vibrations.  A well-built sub doesn't need dual-opposed drivers to still have a strong, vibration-free cabinet.

I would argue that any sub cabinet with substantial depth and a front facing will have the problems you describe.  Don't forget that the wall behind a sub acts like a mirror.  There will be a virtual image of a front firing sub facing the other direction on the "other side" of the wall.  If the cabinet is D.O. instead with the second driver firing into the wall, the situation is likely to be improved on net.

Of course it's better still to place D.O. cabs sideways as you say, which is what I'm doing with my 2 x 2 D.O. x 21"s.  Although, the inside drivers due fire into my rack cabinets (~7" clearance),  it's not a big deal at all.  The biggest issue I have is that the rack cabinet panels resonate around 160 Hz, but it's not hard to notch out that frequency in the subs and have the mains fill-in.

I also disagree that these kinds of problems can't be fixed with DSP.  However the trouble is that it's hard to see what needs to be fixed by looking at the measurements.  Like the 160 Hz ringing is not obvious looking at standard measurements, but when I apply my novel analysis method, it sticks out like a sore thumb.  The problem can be easily verified by playing a sine tones or by just tapping the wall of the cabinet.

4 hours ago, dgage said:

Now I've heard one setup with dual-opposed subs that was about the best setup I've heard and you've heard it too, which is Brandon's dual-opposed setup.  His quad boxes were placed optimally in the front corners at a 45 degree angle to the side wall and front wall.  Add in the fact that he had one pair on the floor and the other pair stacked near the ceiling on top of his speakers, he had one of the best front-sub setups available and it sounded like it.  I looked for a picture of the setup he had then with the Danley's but couldn't find it.  I'll see if I can get him to send me a picture.

By the way, this post is sort of ironic as I'm thinking of offering a dual-opposed subwoofer that I was previously opposed to, primarily because a customer wants it to be able to place it correctly parallel to a wall.

I look forward to checking out Brandon's setup when I am able to get over there.  I'm sure it's even more exciting now with the 4367s and Skhorn.

Unless you can use lighter weight (i.e. Nd) drivers, I doubt a D.O. offering makes much sense for you.  My 21"s were "only" ~45 lbs, so the cabinets probably came in around 220 lbs fully loaded, which was still enough that I opted to install the drivers only after I moved the cabinets into the listening room.

[SME]

To the OP, if the very small size is a *hard* requirement due to limited space and/or spousal acceptance factor, then subs like the JL e112s might be OK.  However, if you can be flexible, I highly recommend looking at a somewhat larger option from one of the makers suggested by @dgage, especially given your desire to use them for home theater.  IMO, it takes *a lot of sub* to get to the point that they are overkill for movie soundtracks.

For comparison, I have four 21" drivers in two DIY cabinets that are quite small (approximately 24"x28"x32" each) relative to the driver size, powered by 12 kW total.  These subs were very expensive, despite being DIY, but the cost was necessary to get the most bass I could from the space I had available.  They handle content above ~16 Hz very well.  Although, I wouldn't want any less.  Below 16 Hz I have EQ boost to get them flat to 6 Hz, and while they do produce significant ULF, I do overload the amps on a few big effects.  Of course the fact that my room is open to the rest of the house is a big factor.

For comparison, one of my 21s is probably similar in deep bass capability to 3 of the JLs.  So I have the equivalent of 12 JL E112s in my room.  If you start with two and decide you want more, you may end up spending a lot more money than if you'd started with a different product.  It's something to think about.

[xcd]

One way to get more family support of having large subwoofers is to hide them under the tv, inside a cabinet. 

left channel -- subwoofer 1 -- center -- subwoofer 2 -- right channel
(Please see attached photo).

The problem is there’s not much room, and everything’s fairly squeezed. Also, the subwoofers would be placed inside a built-in wall cabinet (the front would be covered by a fabric, the sides and top plywood, and the back a wall).

I know this arrange will be far from ideal, but my question is how much of an impact should I expect compared to placing it in the ideal opposing corners setup? Is it a problem having the two subwoofers (1) so closer together and (2) placed into an enclosure?

[MemX]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:48 AM, xcd said:

Now, the Paradigm Persona Sub is out of the running. But I still want to get something on the smaller side physically. 

 

How about JL's E-Sub e112-GLOSS? It looked to be pretty well reviewed on this site

https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=104

http://www.jlaudio.ca/e112-gloss-home-audio-e-sub-powered-subwoofers-96279

I've not been super-impressed with JL subs when really pushed hard - I've heard a couple at demo days, including that 2x12 (??) thing that's very expensive, and they get a bit... flappy... at very high volumes.

 

Not to say that they sounded bad - I guess they were doing well not to be killing themselves when really cranked - but they just sounded a bit 'flubbery' rather than the tightly controlled stop-start of a large system.

 

That was at high volume in a large (20x20?) room, though, with no back wall and an open stairwell, so I guess that as a small-box solution, they do offer attractive packaging and decent sound quality up to the point that they are being asked to achieve the impossible due to their output limitations (which I guess is the same for all subs, really).

 

So...  I'm not really sure this post is very helpful at all  lol