Best Sub for movies and music critical listening?

[santodx5]

Hi Guys,

 

I am planning to replace my subs. I hope you guys can give me some feedback.

My home theater room is 5x7x3M, I am using 4x Rockford fosgate T1D215 (150L port 18hz), with crest audio 8001. I am pretty happy with them to watch movies and critical listening to music.

Lately I have been looking to upgrade my subs, as it is only reach around 24hz flat (+10db from main, roll off to 0db at  around 15hz), I need more low extension!!

I have been looking at SI H2-24! I watch some review and measurement, it looks good.

After some more conversation with other people, someone mention that SI is only good at ULF for movies, but not so much at midbass quality for music.  What is your take on that?

I attach some simulation as follow:

Green: Rockford T1D215, 150L vented at 18hz

Blue: SI HS-24, sealed 450L

Red: Eminence NSW6021-6 vented 371L at 25hz,

Brown: Rockford T3S1-19, 450L at 20hz.

 

To my surprise, my current sub T1D215 seems to give the best freq response. I hope the simulation is correct as SI HS24 in the databass has different freq response.

 

Right now what is the best driver out there that can satisfy music and movies lover? Any suggestion? I can do up to 15cuf/450L  for enclosure.

I am leaning toward SI HS-24 to be honest. I just want to confirm with people who has them, do u like them for music? Does it have good SQ in the midbass such as transient, focus, clarity/transparency.

 

When watching movies, usually I running at 100db for main, that is loud enough. For music slightly below that around 95db. So the 4 subs, when running together I only need them to be around 110db, so each sub around 104db.

 

Thank you all, hopefully I can get some good feedback here.

 

 

 

[Ricci]

Hello Santodx5,

Winisd does not account for the complex inductance and other effects present in the speaker motor system. In other words the responses shown will not be accurate. It is ok for ballpark estimates but not good for detailed comparisons. For this you would need an impedance measurement, or complex inductance parameters for the driver and a simulation program that would allow them to be entered such as Horn Response. This and variation in production of drivers is why the real response of the SI HS24 is different than the Winisd sim. 

It appears that you are leaning towards vented cabs with lower tunings. Sealed or IB is also an option for reaching deep. "Best" depends on a bunch of factors. Budget, listening habits, WAF, room size / shape/ construction, etc...

[santodx5]

Hi Ricci,

 

Thanks for the response.

Someone mention high xmax/mass/excursion driver usually = suffer a hit in the upper bass region.

In this case do you think SI HS24 will suffer the same thing? I am thinking to get it, I will use sealed 15cuf.

As long as we don't push the driver too far, isn't bass sounds similar? With some driver will be able to push lower, or have different  SPL/efficiently.

I am just wondering what sub do you use personally if you have home theater and music room.

 

Best,

Santodx5

[Ricci]

What is lost with higher mass (higher Xmax usually indicates higher mass) is overall efficiency. The biggest hit is in the higher frequencies. 

The SI 24 is very capable. It also sounds quite smooth. Very good at deep bass. Also very impressive looking visually. If you can afford 2 drivers this would make a quite capable system. 

At home I use RF 19's x8 sealed. At my rehearsal / work space I use RF 19's x8 in the MAUL's. I also have a pair of Skhorn's with 21IPAL's and a whole load of other cabs/ drivers sitting around or in storage. 

 

[klipsch]

16 power 19s? Haha awesome 

1ohm or 2ohm variant? 

[santodx5]

 

4 hours ago, Ricci said:

What is lost with higher mass (higher Xmax usually indicates higher mass) is overall efficiency. The biggest hit is in the higher frequencies. 

The SI 24 is very capable. It also sounds quite smooth. Very good at deep bass. Also very impressive looking visually. If you can afford 2 drivers this would make a quite capable system. 

At home I use RF 19's x8 sealed. At my rehearsal / work space I use RF 19's x8 in the MAUL's. I also have a pair of Skhorn's with 21IPAL's and a whole load of other cabs/ drivers sitting around or in storage. 

 

Any reason why u pick RF? I'm using 4x  RF T1D215 vented at the moment and I quite happy. I just need some more low extension for movies.

So I will replace corner front subs with SI H24, then another 2 in the back corner later.

Can you show me  freq response of RF 19s at MLP? Here is mine at 1/24.

How many litre is the enclosure?  What is MAUL?

 

Best,
Santodx5

 

[klipsch]

51 minutes ago, santodx5 said:

What is MAUL

Just this little thing https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5aa4a25261feb10004121e18?_k=qak9b2

[Ricci]

19 hours ago, klipsch said:

16 power 19s? Haha awesome 

1ohm or 2ohm variant? 

16 1 ohm...2x 2ohm that are currently unused. They were intended for a project that I never started. Imagine that! 🙄

[Ricci]

17 hours ago, santodx5 said:

 

Any reason why u pick RF?

So I will replace corner front subs with SI H24, then another 2 in the back corner later.

Can you show me  freq response of RF 19s at MLP? Here is mine at 1/24.

How many litre is the enclosure?  What is MAUL?

4X SI 24's will be very impressive if you go that route. They are great for moving huge amounts of air effortlessly.

I use the RF 19's specifically based on the engineering and quality of the driver and the objective measured performance of it. Has nothing to do with the brand RF. All of that data is available in the measurements section of the main Data-Bass site. 

My cabs at home are 4x sealed dual opposed. About 24.5x24.5x36" from what I recall. It's been a long time since I built those cabinets. Each driver sees about 4.5cu ft or 127L air volume. 

The MAUL is a quad opposed series loaded 6th order bandpass Frankenstein monster. Roughly 14.5Hz vent tuning. 47x47x30". 1086L net. 550lbs estimated. 

Response of the sealed RF's in my basement HT is attached. Subs only, at the main LP, no EQ, no smoothing, 100Hz LPF. You can see the 42Hz room mode caused by the room acoustics and seating position (center room). Cleans up quite well with a few bands of EQ. 

[klipsch]

4 hours ago, Ricci said:

16 1 ohm...2x 2ohm that are currently unused. They were intended for a project that I never started. Imagine that! 🙄

Good problem to have! 

[santodx5]

6 hours ago, Ricci said:

4X SI 24's will be very impressive if you go that route. They are great for moving huge amounts of air effortlessly.

I use the RF 19's specifically based on the engineering and quality of the driver and the objective measured performance of it. Has nothing to do with the brand RF. All of that data is available in the measurements section of the main Data-Bass site. 

My cabs at home are 4x sealed dual opposed. About 24.5x24.5x36" from what I recall. It's been a long time since I built those cabinets. Each driver sees about 4.5cu ft or 127L air volume. 

The MAUL is a quad opposed series loaded 6th order bandpass Frankenstein monster. Roughly 14.5Hz vent tuning. 47x47x30". 1086L net. 550lbs estimated. 

Response of the sealed RF's in my basement HT is attached. Subs only, at the main LP, no EQ, no smoothing, 100Hz LPF. You can see the 42Hz room mode caused by the room acoustics and seating position (center room). Cleans up quite well with a few bands of EQ. 

Wow thanks Ricci flat to 6hz! It is a lot different from data-bass test!  I am sold!! Now RF 19 becomes an option for me. it is so much different than WINisd simulation i did,  I cant believe such as small box can do that! I am sure RF is a better driver, it has some new tech,CEA 2031, Klippel, etc and look at the price If you  go with  bigger box, can you reach even lower? what is the optimal box size? I can do up to 15cuf.

I have been asking for shipping quote from SI, it has been a week and no reply!

In the data-bass site it said we can purchase RF 19 less that retail, can you tell me where?

 

Thanks

[santodx5]

Ricci,

 

I just look at RF web site, it says for RF 19, they do not recommend a sealed enclosure. "

"Do Not Use Sealed Box

This woofer is not recommended for sealed enclosures; it is optimized for the vented design(s) below. If you require a sealed enclosure, here are some recommendations:"

 

What is your take on this?

 

Thank you

 

[Ricci]

Santo,

Please read through my forum threads on the RF 19 and the testing notes and data. Much of this is already covered. 

You may not get a response as extended as mine without EQ. The room is a huge factor. Without the room the response would be almost exactly what is seen in the outdoor GP tests. I knew exactly what my room acoustics were doing in the bass region before I moved to the 19's. I was not guessing what the resulting response shape would be. I have no idea what it would be for your room / placements. 

Not recommended for sealed cabs is based on antiquated thinking from the old days before there was modern DSP. Efficient drivers with low Qts weren't recommended for sealed because the raw voltage response isn't flat and the F3 or F10 occurs at higher bass frequencies. This is almost entirely irrelevant in the modern era. Any competent pro, home, HT, cinema, DIY, system will be making use of DSP.

Bass performance in sealed cabs comes down to a few relatively simple factors: Power handling, high linear displacement potential (SD x Xmax), efficiency and mechanical durability. Raw FR is far less important than it used to be. 

RF is a car audio brand targeting SPL competition type applications. A completely different environment than any other real world use. EQ is not usually used for SPL comps and loud daily car systems. DSP is used for SQ based car audio but this woofer is not marketed as that. However when looking at the engineering in the driver if one were to make a laundry list of design attributes that result in a "SQ" based driver on steroids it ticks all the boxes. That's why I decided to test one originally. 

Most of the above applies to any bass driver not just the 19. 

Anyway...I would start planning things by looking at your room, budget, listening habits, WAF, etc...And work a solution with a "system" approach. There are a number of viable approaches and drivers to use. IB, Sealed, vented, SBA, DBA, horns, nearfield, tactile transducers...For example a properly executed DBA is objectively one of the least compromised approaches, but not everyone can execute one in their space and you would not want or need to use SI24's, 6021's, or RF19 type beasts for that.