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Posts posted by peniku8

  1. The MDF I have is 800kg/m³ and my ply is 650kg/m³, which makes the MDF 23% heavier. My dad has some old Klipsch speakers made from plywood which feels like half the weight of the plywood I'm using for my subs, there are huge differences. I worked a lot with MDF lately (for studio monitors) and I'm not a fan of it. Won't hold screws well is my main issue here, since I don't care about the dust (my 7KW dust collector leaves nothing on the cnc). Will probably switch to carb2 CDF for the baffles at least, even thou it's literally 6x the cost.

    Those old Klipsch speakers are a mess imo. Light ply with no bracing, no gasket tape on the hatch and the tweeter and mid horns are back-mounted on the 1" baffle...

  2. 4 hours ago, SME said:

    Perhaps those are Aussie dollars which are 1 : 0.76 USD (currently).  Even still!

    @h3idrun: Tthat driver should do pretty well.  Dayton also has a new 21" with similar motor and price, albeit 8 ohm vs. 4 ohm impedance.  I don't see it listed at your store, but you might contact them and ask if they are planning to stock it soon:


    Yea, but 700AUD is 440€ and the 21DS115 can be had for 400 here atm, if you take 4. Last time I ordered I paid 380 per driver (bought 2). Am B&C OEM now thou, so I can order directly. Can't tell those prices for obvious reasons :)

  3. 1 minute ago, lowerFE said:

    Sorry for the late response. I thought I would get an email notification if anyone replied to me, but the setting changed for some reason. 

    I tried on v1.41. v1.42 had a lot of problem with master/slave syncing (no sound on the slave speaker occasionally). v1.44 broke the EQ. 

    Originally I said the soft limiter didn't work because I set it at 400W and the amp still power cycled at loud ULF passages. Upon further testing (using 5W limit instead) I see the limiter does work. 

    Nice testing on the behavior of the limiter BTW!

    I didn't get the amp to power cycle at 10Hz, however it did so below 10Hz. REW starts its measurement sweep one octave below the start frequency (and does a fade-in or w/e) and the amp would shut off at the 5Hz input. But I'd not go with Hypex amps if I wanna get sub 10Hz, I'd probably want something with a bit more power. Even 400W at 5Hz probably produces no meaningful output 😅

  4. 48 minutes ago, awedio said:

    Why would plywood & manufacturing cost you 3+ to 7k?

    What kind of plywood (I’m in the US) are you using that cost that much? Is it that bad in Europe?

    Well yea, if it's mass produced manufacturing that will be less, but if you go to a CNC shop and ask them what it would cost for them to cnc, build and paint that thing I doubt it'll come in much below 3k including the 500 or 1000$ worth of BB.

    And the extra 4k is markup as I said. I don't think Powersoft sells you a finished subwoofer for the parts cost.

  5. Good info there Momo, everything on the list there is a tad cheaper than I expected
    But still, you pay 3000 for the driver and 2500 for the full plate amp. That's 5500€ excl. VAT, so you pay about 7k USD for the components. Now add plywood and manufacturing costs and you end up right in the 10-15k ballpark I outlined before with some wiggle room for markup.
    Does Powersoft actually sell the finished subs or are these subs just concepts to show what M-Drive can be used for?

    From a DIY perspective I think the driver+amp combo isn't too expensive (for what it delivers).

  6. Don't think anyone here is planning to buy a 10-15k sub if they could DIY a blazing bass inferno for that money.
    I'm also pretty sure that M-Force is only sold to OEMs and installation companies, so if you want one you'd probably not be able to buy it directly.

  7. What exactly is this setup being used for? I see no center speaker, so it's not a dedicated HT setup, but I don't really see a point in running a 32" sub in a music setup when you already have two 21s. Might sound crazy, but since the space is so big a single sealed 32" might be on the weak side if you want solid sub 10Hz (which only makes sense imo if your wood flooring allows enough flex on the concrete for TR).
    Also, that space screams for acoustic treatment, but it looks quite new so I guess you're in the process of setting it up? What kind of room correction are you running and how are you handling your crossovers? The crossover points look good to me, but running vented mid-bass modules (your 21s) might cause some phase troubles. 1 octave from the tuning point should be alright thou.

  8. I've recieved an answer and they suspected this phenomenon was caused by bad contact of the speaker connector on the amp. I had the amps stored on a shelf in the warehouse for a few months, so it makes sense that there was some dirt build-up and corrosion-like effects (humidity never exceeds 60% there thou, so it's only minor), since the amps were unpacked. Running a higher current through the connector seems to literally clean it, which reduced the distortion. The more you know..!

    • Like 1
  9. Small update on the Hypex amps: according to them all amps are tested at the factory and run through a burn-in period there. I suspect that this step was skipped because the amps were on back order already (I waited 2 months to get my amps in mid 2020 due to the pandemic), but of course this is nothing but a speculation from my side right now. I voiced the same thoughts to Hypex and waiting for their take on that. Will keep you posted

  10. 27 minutes ago, Ukko Kari said:

    The resistance of the heating elements will change from the beginning to the test to the end of the test if you do not immerse them in water. This will change the results of the calculation of power into the load slightly.

    That's correct, but they don't actually change by much, especially at only 50W per 3KW element (which is 100W into 8R=two elements in parallel). For 4R tests that's 4 elements in parallel already, so it's only about 30W per element on the FA123.

  11. The good thing about testing low power amps is that I don't have to fill the loadbank up with water.

    Random facts:

    • It would take about 10 minutes to heat up the water in the tank to unsafe levels (beyond 60°C) at 3650W, which is the maximum power I can draw from the 230V 16A wall socket.
    • I'd need 500KW of power input to boil the entire body of water within a single 10 second test.
    • A full 10 second test at 5KW would heat up the water from 23°C (room temperature) to about 24°C.
    • Heating the water to 'lukewarm' would take about 5 minutes at full available 3,6KW power intput.
    • Running all heating elements at spec (230V or 3KW each; 48KW total), the water temperature would reach hot tub levels within half a minute.
  12. I'll be posting some measurements of the Hypex FA123 soon. I'll also update my tests to streamline the process a bit.

    What frequencies would ppl be most interested in? I thought of doing 1k, 60Hz for bass performance and 20Hz for sub-bass performance. I don't wanna take too many measurements, since everything multiplies so a 4 channel amp into 3 different loads with 3 different frequencies already makes 3^3=27 tests (1ch 2ch 4ch; 1khz 60hz 20hz; 8R 4R 2R).
    I might as well drop the 1ch measurement for 4 channel amps as an edge case like that doesn't make much sense.

  13. 52 minutes ago, jay michael said:

    Thanks SME. I'm just editing a follow up to the previous video. This time I was able to run the cvr up to 48 volts driving 4x 21sw152 at a 2 ohm load. No appreciable difference between it and the k10. I have no illusions that the cvr can hang with the k10 all the way to max power, but it can drive 4 21's on a 2 ohm load to pretty fun levels very well. Ill post the vid when its ready

    I'd love to test this amp with my loadbank. I'd also love to test if it'll explode being driven at max after a while like my Sanway did.

  14. 20Hz tests with 3 +10db low shelves at 50Hz which means +30db at 20Hz:

    -23V unclipped baseline @ 0db reference
    -+10db no issues, just clipping
    -+20db no issues, just clipping
    -+25db amp shuts down after a few seconds, output muted
    SCL engaged at 125W4R:
    -22V unclipped baseline @ 0db reference
    -nothing changes except the clipping output signal turns into a "clean" signal
    Master input was at +4db on the amp and I raised that to +14 for signals over 20db into clipping because I ran out of output on my interface

    Overdrive tests:
    -SCL set to amp specs (125W@4R)
    -Clean at 125W (100Hz)
    -no issues at +3db
    -no issues at +6db
    -no issues at +9db
    -test repeated at 20Hz and 10Hz, no issues

    -amp goes into protect at 5Hz, but doesn't complain at -1db

    @lowerFEmaybe all your issues were solved in a firmware update?

  15. Report on the soft clip limiter: test set to 25W 4R (10V in theory), generator at 1kHz

    -Protect light starts flickering around 11V (30W) but it won't go any higher than that (long term)
    -attack time was ~5ms when overdriven by 10db followed by a gradual roll off to the target over 50ms
    -when overdriven by 20db it stays in hard clipping for 30ms then ramps down to the target in less than 1ms
    -even 20db hot the target is undistorted
    -10Hz sinve was butchered a bit but didn't look too bad
    -distortion just below limiter as expected (between 0.001 and 0.003% in my sweep)
    -3db into limiter 2.5%THD@20Hz; 0.4%@100Hz; 0.04%@1k; 0.004%@10k
    -10db into limiter the values multiply by 3, values stay the same for 20db+

    • Like 1
  16. 9 hours ago, lowerFE said:

    That's some very interesting results. Did you find out whether maxing out one channel is enough to break in all channels? 

    I'm the person that SME mentioned on Hypex amp experiences. It does some things very well, but some things are shockingly rough around the edges that I'm amazed they released a product with flaws like this. 

    For example if the total gain on all filters exceed +24dB, the DSP crashes and sends full scale noise to the amp channels. Luckily, it spared the tweeter channel, and luckily the DSP recognizes the crash and doesn't go crazy after a restart. But this is still really bad. 

    It is also possible to crash the DSP with a strong enough input signal. I suspect it is because I tripped the +24dB gain limitation because I had +20dB of boost due to Linkwitz transform, and I raised the master volume to +6. So when a -2dB or louder ULF signal hits the DSP, it gets boosted to +4, and since I had 20dB of ULF gain, I trip the +24dB gain and the DSP crashes and sends loud noise to the channels. 

    This kind of bug should never happen on a commercial product.

    I can also get my FA503 to power cycle when exceeding its power limits. I'm disappointed the soft limiter doesn't work. My previous ICEpower amp never power cycled no matter how hard it was driven. The soft limiter actually reduced amp power output with a stronger input signal. I'm sure that saved my speakers from blowing up during some extended loud parties.

    @klipsch On the FA503's, Hypex actually did a pretty smart thing. It actually seems to turn the amp off when there is no signal to the DSP, and therefore the speakers are dead silent with no hiss. But there is actually a hiss, and if you feed it a silent/very quiet signal, the hiss is apparent.

    While the Hypex are technically excellent amps, it really sucks on the usability aspect. I haven't even talked about the excessive heat combined with a low maximum temperature, or how the DSP/amp takes 5 seconds to wake from sleep, or there's a very loud click every time it wakes/sleeps that I can hear from another room. For my next speakers I will use Pascal L-Pro modules instead. I hope they have much better usability behavior than the Hypex. I wish I could get my hands on OEM DSP plate amps with Pascal amp modules. If not I'll build my own plate amp.

    What firmware version did you experience these issues with? I'll try to replicate this today with my amps running 1.44 which I updated to yesterday. I didn't quite understand your remarks about the soft clip limiter; you say it doesn't work but then you say it reduced output power, isn't that exactly what it's supposed to do? It certainly worked when I tried it, but I haven't monitored the signal so I'm not sure if it was a gain reduction (soft limiting) or a peak reduction (hard limiting). I will run a signal to the amp and loop the output back into my interface to listen back to what it's doing. I'm just sad that you can't change the limiter's attack and release times, it's instantaneous, which doesn't make sense since loudspeakers are not linear devices.

    The amps have a signal detection and automatic turn off functions, like most HT subwoofers do. My FA123 didn't mute the output signal while it was on and I could hear the noise from a distance of about a foot of the 94db/w/m tweeter. Not an issue there, but certainly audible on an unpadded compression driver (that was with an input signal connected thou and the input gain at around 0db, not sure if the noise came from the amp even).

    The Pascal amps look higher power but also more expensive (their website was down so I checked a store which had like two modules listed?), to the point where I'd probably consider going Powersoft instead. The digiMod like is certainly on my list of amp candidates for active PA speakers. Not sure about their noise floor, maybe it's not good enough for a HT setup where you want inaudibility of the noise floor on unpadded compression drivers, if that's even achievable, but I don't need multi KW modules on tweeters.

  17. 1 hour ago, SME said:

    Lastly, IIRC someone I know managed to get a Hypex amp (one with builtin DSP, I believe) to go unstable (i.e. noise at full blast) by feeding it high-level ultra-low frequency signals.

    Mine power cycled when I tried to get it to output 20V into 4R at 10Hz (FA123).

    1 hour ago, klipsch said:

    I am interested in the newer self contained hypex modules to see/hear how they compare (e. g. Compare the original 500NC VS the 500mp or 502mp)

    The FA123 I have consists of a NC122MP, NC100HF and MP-DSP Main plus MP-DSP Digin.

    You can see better measurements than I could ever take of the NC252MP amp here:

    I think this one is very interesting and much cheaper than combining their other offerings:

    This plus the dsp board is way less than the full FA253 (almost half the price). Dunno if it's available to non OEM customers thou.

  18. I've noticed something very interesting I wouldn't have believed was true when experimenting with my Hypex amps yesterday. These amps needed to be "broken in" with a high level signal or they'll run at unusually high distortion.
    Sounds like snake oil to me, but heres what I've seen from the data:

    General info:
    -Sweep of the audio interface max 0.005% THD 100Hz-24khz (sweep went to 48khz)
    -THD somehow off rising to 1% at 20Hz (has been RMA'd once, guess it's still slightly damaged)
    -THD numbers in the following paragraph are mostly constant through the frequency range, so I'm picking a 1khz reference
    -Load is resistive; no water for cooling because heat dissipation is 100W max.

    Step by step results:
    -10V @ no load: 0.003% THD
    -10V @ 8R: 0.048% THD
    -10V @ 4R: 0.109% THD
    -30s 200Hz signal @ 20V into 4R
    -10V @ 8R: 0.004% THD
    -10V @ 4R: 0.01% THD

    Results were verified multiple times (like multiple sweeps @high THD and then multiple sweeps at low THD after 'break-in').
    Results were the same for all 6 amps (with 3 channels each) I tested, but some didn't have high THD because I've had them in use before already.
    Results were the same after I let the amps cool off (always low THD after being 'broken-in').
    Results were the same the next day.

    Whatever happened here, driving the amp modules to their maximum once lowered overall distortion by an order of magnitude (forever?).

    Maybe someone can help tracing the issue. Whatever generates the current in the amp is affected by this, so it might be the transistors. Might be the solder heating up and changing its properties (but I don't think the amp is getting hot enough for that; at least I hope so because that would be approaching 200°C). Might be the power supply.
    I'm not an expert in this subject, but I believed that electronics components don't change (excpet caps with age), as long as they're not hardcore overdriven and like literally melting.

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