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Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer


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#241 chrapladm

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 02:27 PM

Max performance I say. I made a simulation of a 21" SW152 MAUL and every time I split it into two I needed it to go slightly larger to equal performance.

 

PLUS the price of the DS115 is quite a savings for me verse SW152 so I like the idea of also having a pair of single cabinets to go below the L/R. The main Skhon will go below the center. Not saying the savings turn me towards any driver but seeing I can have what I want for about 350/400 dollars less money is very helpful. Savings can go towards SP amplifiers.


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#242 lukeamdman

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 03:28 PM

Go a little bigger.

#243 Ricci

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:06 PM

Well...No offense but you guys aren't really the demographic for this half cab. The size / weight consideration is a lot bigger deal when the cabs are moved in and out of venues and vehicles weekly. Still 2 votes for bigger. :)



#244 dgage

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 07:55 PM

Well...No offense but you guys aren't really the demographic for this half cab. The size / weight consideration is a lot bigger deal when the cabs are moved in and out of venues and vehicles weekly. Still 2 votes for bigger. :)

 

Are you doing this for the community in general or thinking of starting up Ricci's Subwoofer Emporium? :)  Those would be some impressive though big to build, handle, ship etc.


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"You don't listen to our subs, you EXPERIENCE them!"


#245 radulescu_paul_mircea

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 08:03 PM

Bigger, for sure!! :)

Now let's think why. the main thing with this is from the fact that putting a horn in front of the speaker, the general sensitivity in the pass band will be increased, and also the efficiency. 

Grey Bass Reflex 522 L, black SKhorn 522 L Max SPL 145 V.jpg

Grey Bass Reflex 522 L, Black SKHorn 522 L, SPL at 145 V,  same tuning frequency

Grey BR 522 L, Black SKHorn 522 L Efficiency.jpg

Efficency

The main issue appears when using more than one and using a specific type of music material. Techno music is most of the time centered around 45-80 hz .there is right where this sub has its impedance minimum. If it is to be chosen between this SKHorn and 2 dual 21DS115-8 in very small enclosures, like 310 litters net each, with similarly big ports as the SKHorn, those would be better equipped to withstand a whole night of using them to their limit. Why? because of the content type.

Most of the energy being centered in that band, the RMS limiters for an SKHorn would engage to keep the average thermal power into the sub at under 2-2.2 Kw (which IMO is very  risky, given the fact that the excursion is lower exactly where the power input is higher so the cooling is poorer) so even though the peak SPL capability of this sub would be within 2 dB of that couple, in use, those 2 would be much louder than this one because the RMS limiters would not engage if set to the same threshold. also the power compression would be higher on the SKHorn, and extremely low on the 2 dual BR because most of the time the drivers in the BR would see under 1 KW in the 40-75 HZ range and in that range more power will leave the voice coil firstly because the excursion would be higher, so better cooling and secondly the power conversion efficiency would be higher so more energy would be converted into sound instead of heat.

Grey 2 dual 21 DS115-8 BR 310 L each, Black SKHorn 522 L Efficiency.jpg

In Grey is 2 dual 21 BCDS115-8 310 L net BR Efficiency

Grey 2 dual 21DS115-8 BR 310 L each, Black SKHorn 522 L input power.jpg

In Grey is 2 dual BCDS115-8 310 L net BR input power 145V on 2 series Ipal, 160 V 2 drivers paralel, 2 subs parallel

Grey 2 dual 21 BCDS115-8 BR 310 L each, Black SKHorn 522 L max SPL 160V.jpg

In Grey is 2 dual BCDS115-8 310 L net BR Max SPL 145V on series Ipal, 160V on 2 drivers paralel, 2 subs parallel

So yes, the two would be heavier, a bit larger, more expensive to make, but would require far less power from the wall and will give more long term output than a single SKHorn. So for people who would carry these around from a gig to another, using them mostly on EDM and Techno, it would be a better solution. it wouldnt sound as clean as the horn, having the driver in front. and also it wouldn't be anything spectacular, but it would be useful for this sort of app which is the most commonly used

So here comes the conclusion. Making it bigger would also make it more efficient. increasing the horn side would gain efficiency higher in frequency, increasing the back chamber and/or increasing the tuning frequency a bit  would gain efficiency in the lower parts. 

Off course, making a sub tuned exactly for that genre would be even better, like a Danley DBH 218 horn which keeps the efficiency very high but also it keeps the excursion low for a clean sound, but high enough from the high pass crossover to help the drivers cool down.

 



#246 Ricci

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 05:03 PM

I'll reply a bit more later but one thing to keep in mind is that there is no way you should, or would ever put 2kw average power into a driver. Music, even the very most demanding kinds are nowhere near that type of average power or crest factor unless you are compressing or clipping off the tops of the material. 500w average power into a driver is a LOT. Yes even at an EDM show. Fun fact the long term average power output is logged in the Ipal software and can be monitored. You'd be surprised just what the average power is when absolutely blasting a sub with what seems like demanding material. It's lower than expected. BTW the recommended long term average power limiter setting for a single 21Ipal is recommended to be set at 700w in the Ipal system. That doesn't seem like much but 700w average input over an hour is a LOT.

 

Bigger is always better when it comes to bass, so that's not really a fair comparison when one system is significantly bigger. Also the 21DS is more efficient at small signals than the 21Ipal driver but these things change at war volume. Anyway the same driver / cab volume should be used for comparison. Vented will still have an efficiency edge over that frequency range though. I did consider all of that during the design phase.


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#247 SME

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 06:35 PM

The half-size is only slightly bigger than my dual-opposed sealed cabinets.  But of course, I'd want it to play lower than it would.

 

I'm not sure if a small size difference really matters that much for performance, but small size changes can make a big difference as far as handling.  I actually lean toward the smaller size.

 

Efficency

The main issue appears when using more than one and using a specific type of music material. Techno music is most of the time centered around 45-80 hz .

 

I'll reply a bit more later but one thing to keep in mind is that there is no way you should, or would ever put 2kw average power into a driver. Music, even the very most demanding kinds are nowhere near that type of average power or crest factor unless you are compressing or clipping off the tops of the material. 500w average power into a driver is a LOT. Yes even at an EDM show.

 

I think these are overly broad generalizations about EDM.  Different sub-genres are actually very different with regard to how and where they demand output from subs.  While most kick-driven genres probably do focus a lot on the 45-80 Hz range and have a reasonable crest factor, some genres also rely on heavy droning bass down at 40 Hz or below.  With dub step and whatnot, it's not unusual to find content in the 25-40 Hz range that's almost full-scale sine or square waves.

 

Of course, I couldn't agree more about keeping average power down low regardless, so that kind of crazy continuous bass music needs a lot of sus to play loud for a long time.



#248 radulescu_paul_mircea

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:36 PM

You are right about the average power. I was referring at that power into both.I didn't get that number from somewhere specific, all I did was to take the TruPower limiter setting for my BC18SW 115 in my Xoc 1 TH18 subs and double them. Off course, my gain strategy is to engage those limiters only on occasions when needed not to keep them engaged constantly.so the average power these get is a bit over half of that.

Regarding the content, I was speaking from experience, when in a comparison of my 2 TH18 vs 2  BR with dual 18TBX100 tuned to 36 Hz, those 2 were louder than mine on average because even though the max clean SPL  was the same on paper and on measurements, on tehno music, long term the 2 were taking more voltage with less heat, so the limiters were not engaging on them.

The kind of music I was referring to was techno,dance, minimal etc.. that music is much more focused in that passband but it doesnt mean there is no content outside of it.



#249 Ricci

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 09:21 PM

I agree. Vented looks superior from an efficiency perspective over even horns when you keep the total system size the same. Tapped horns impedance curve shape looks quite similar to the Skhorn style cab over the bandwidth of use. The advantage for the Skhorn style cab is less direct radiated sound, easier to design / build, can be a little smaller and a much better wide band frequency response IMHO. Distortion should be a little better too. The main disadvantage compared to a TH is that it uses vents and vents compress much more than a horn in most cases.

 

Vented offers an even easier build / design, can be even smaller and offers better midband efficiency, but the trade out is less sensitivity than the higher order alignments. With vented typically your output limitation comes from excursion and of course you have the exposed drivers and the direct radiator sounds + distortion. With the TH, FLH or Skhorn style cab I'd say that thermal handling is probably the output limitation (For the heavy duty, many hour use we are talking about such as EDM or techno.) It's all tradeoffs as usual. As you say I'm kinda bored with sealed / vented even though they are perfectly viable and excellent performing in many cases.

 

I am surprised at how well the 21Ipal's handled the long sine sweeps with the SP-6000 in the Skhorn cab. I thought there might be a chance of major thermal buildup or compression near 60-70hz but it was what I'd call mild at best. 3dB. repeat sweeps showed not much thermal shifting either. Not saying the cab will handle 50% duty, 60Hz sines all day from that much amp but it appears to cope a bit better than I thought. It'll be interesting to see how the 21DS115's turn out in the vented cab and then the Skhorn.



#250 Speaker Sol

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 09:40 PM

Hi, 

 

Being reading through your web site, forums and threads on other forums. Very interesting designs and exceptional dedication to measurements,

Thank you for your time and effort!. 

 

I am very interested in this design and in particular the development of single cone version.

I find I often end up loading the van/stacking by my self and have really been enjoying single driver bass bins recently. 

 

I am looking forward to seeing how this works out. 

 

Sol.



#251 Infrasonic

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 11:23 PM

Hi, 

 

Being reading through your web site, forums and threads on other forums. Very interesting designs and exceptional dedication to measurements,

Thank you for your time and effort!. 

 

I am very interested in this design and in particular the development of single cone version.

I find I often end up loading the van/stacking by my self and have really been enjoying single driver bass bins recently. 

 

I am looking forward to seeing how this works out. 

 

Sol.

 

Single driver version?

 

Have you looked into the Othorn design?



#252 Speaker Sol

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 09:31 AM

Single driver version?

 

Have you looked into the Othorn design?

 

Ricci has discussed designing a single driver version of the Skhorn, possibly slightly larger than simply cutting the current design in half, but still small than the Othorn. 

 

I have of course, studied many Othorn threads and it looks great.  



#253 Ricci

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 04:00 PM

Hi, 

 

Being reading through your web site, forums and threads on other forums. Very interesting designs and exceptional dedication to measurements,

Thank you for your time and effort!. 

 

I am very interested in this design and in particular the development of single cone version.

I find I often end up loading the van/stacking by my self and have really been enjoying single driver bass bins recently. 

 

I am looking forward to seeing how this works out. 

 

Sol.

 

 

Thanks for the kind words Sol.

 

I'm planning to work on the half version but I haven't had much time lately. Testing season has started back up and it's going to be a busy year. Hopefully I can work on it fairly soon.



#254 BeastAudio

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 07:15 PM

Testing season aka the ground isn't frozen solid? :D 

 

I sell some stuff, I will be wanting to get one of these bad boys going pronto...



#255 Ricci

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 04:12 PM

Testing season aka the ground isn't frozen solid? :D

 

I sell some stuff, I will be wanting to get one of these bad boys going pronto...

 

Oh really? Well then... Looks like I won't have to drag one with me next time you have a GTG then. Works for me. ;)



#256 BeastAudio

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 07:21 PM

Oh really? Well then... Looks like I won't have to drag one with me next time you have a GTG then. Works for me. ;)

"Get one of these bad boys going pronto" has a direct translation to "Dangit Josh, hurry up and get tired of your skhorn and just bring it to me"



#257 dsl1

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 08:37 PM

I have an extra one...






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