Infrasonic

I don't mind the questions.  I will admit that I don't know that much about how this stuff is produced, but it doesn't really matter how it's produced.  Let deductive logic guide your reasoning.

 

Natural rolloff of synthetic sound effects is an oxymoron.  If there is no rolloff in natural sounds recorded in foley (or elsewhere), which I feel like is an established fact, there has to be a reason they exhibit a negative beta (slope), right?  If it doesn't exist naturally, what else shall we call negative slope implemented in the design and/or the recording?

 

The most common negative slopes are precisely 2nd or 3rd order. In this case, it's 3rd order across most of the measured trend line:

 

Frozen-PvA.PNG

Nice graph. That would certainly make it look that way...

But! Think of it this way...

What kind of system's do you think that the creators of this content are using? System's that are flat to 3hz or most likely a high sensitivity 18" driver in a ported cab with an Fb ~30hz?

Take a wild guess.

Then think about that these are NOT natural sounds. Yes, in real life things don't have a filter. Is foley or other methods of sound effects creation coming from real things? Of course! But not always. Often these are effects that are pitched down to be ...bass. If you're a sfx creator and you're at your console making these sounds and monitoring them with a system that is flat to 30hz with no appreciable output below, what are the chances that there will be any effort put into making an effect wide bandwidth enough to be below 30hz? I'm not saying they don't care or even that they don't know. It's not just that cut and dry that we can label it as negligence.

Natural rolloff of synthetic sound effects and a filter are two completely different things, Nube.

Let's just say this IS a filter. What slope would you say that is?

Sorry, I'm not trying to call you out. I just think several need to calm down on the "ermagerd this is filtered!!!" like it's so blatant.

Filtered at 36hz?

C'mon now. It has most of it's peak energy ~36hz but filtered? I think we are getting a bit quick on the draw with that term. Looks to me like there is plenty of content to ~10hz but at a slightly lowered shelf. Much, MUCH better than we get with most movies. Especially the big blockbuster types that we want with that kind of extension.

People who replace or eliminate blocking caps and use transducers like Crowsons I bet will definitely notice the <3Hz stuff.  Even Infrasonic said he noticed a hell of a transient with his new system in TF1, when megatron blasts jazz.  It mainly is below 3Hz.  It is graphed on this thread.

 

JSS

It was around that moment but not that actual shot. I don't think what I felt was the part charted showing that single digit stuff. And while the Crowson's themselves might be able to reproduce the effect they are still subject to the cumulative rolloff of the signal chain up until the Crowson itself. Not unlike any other speaker or sub.

When I get time to revisit TF1 I will see about pinpointing the time.

I can't imagine I am getting any appreciable output ~1hz. Not with all my muscle having to go thru a DCX. Those have been charted to have rolloff.

I don't know. It sure would be cool to say, "Hey! I can do 1hz, no problem." but that's too easy.

Also, who else is really going through the trouble to change out/remove the DC blocking caps inside amplifiers/preamps? Seriously? I think maybe Bosso is and like one other dude on planet Earth.

I for sure as heck ain't going through that for <5hz. Fuck that.

No, Dave. That is the whole point of Dolby Atmos. If or when there is a mix that contains content beyond 5/7.1 it can just as easily be "downmixed" back down to 5/7.1 or less with no loss or little loss of directionality.

It's better for everybody when a mix is done native in Atmos or any future form of object based audio.

Maybe we should consider that content <3hz is irrelevant? No seriously. It's damn near impossible if completely impractical to be capable of reproducing <3hz on any professional or consumer gear. All throughout the signal chain there will be DC protection.

Maybe we need a modifier to add to how we determine extension such as stuff like that doesn't affect scores. A peak like that at 5hz can be had. The same peak at 0-1hz? Umm, yeah no and I think even Dave would agree with me on this one.

John? Your thoughts on this?

Can't say enough how awesome you guys, this thread and DataBass.com is.

Guys are doing great work here.

Ender's Game looks good. Reminds me a lot of the PvA for Tron:Legacy which rocked and a lot of people liked. Goodtimes.

I don't have it but I'll need to pick it up at some point when it's cheaper.

I thought I remember that one being graphed already and it was mostly rolling off below 30hz? Maybe I am remembering wrong. It sure was a midbass monster at the cinema. Oooo! Another one to throw onto my 'revisit' queue.

Ah yeah I think the 7000S is the Yamaha to aim for if using with subs/bass.

Agreed! One of my favorite movies of the year and with awesome bass! Woot!

How about jurassic park 3D 7.1 vs 2D 7.1, i've heard that they are different mixes.

I would LOVE to know what the differences between these are as I know the 3D version got a even newer re-re-mix. Lol. I'd like to know what has changes and not just the bass. But a PvA would be cool to see too.

Is the 24" going to be the current "don't call me an IB driver" version or the newer more versatile (larger motor) and expensive version?

I haven't looked at the DVD of The Hobbit.

 

Well guys, if you ever check the 1st post, a few films have moved up, and a few films have moved down in the rankings now that I am measuring 100% digitally.  I am sad to say that War of the Worlds is now a 4.75 Star film, so is Looper.  I have many films to go, but those two surprised me, even more so that WotW is riddled with clipping in every channel.  I do not own the film (didn't like it), but every high spl scene has clipping in at least one of the channels.  Like every other film, the center channel clips the most.

 

Harry Potter 3&4 soon...

 

JSS

Explains A LOT! I knew I wasn't crazy.

Still.. WotW remains as one of the kings of bass, imo. 4.75 ain't a bad spot.

Nice work, I'll go check out the new scores.

A copy and paste from the Ultimax18 thread at AVS. This is a response from Rory of Dayton Audio addressing a couple of points about this new driver.

Hi, a couple notes.

 

1) This driver has no relation to the Fi Audio car subwoofers except for using the same basket casting. If you want to break the bank when developing a driver, insisting on a custom tooled die-cast frame is an easy way, so most manufacturers use off-the-shelf basket castings, or open tooling for the die casting. The open-tooling 12-spoke "MTX-style" basket used for the other Ultimax drivers is only available in sizes from 8" thru 15", so we had to look around for an open-tooling 18" 12-spoke basket that would provide the most similar cosmetics and functionality to the other 18" Ultimax drivers. There have been at least a couple variations of 12-spoke 18" frames created that have open tooling (since opening the tooling is a way to reduce the cost of having the tooling made), and I know that this frame is shared by at least the Fi Audio car subwoofers, but SSA Audio is another company that is using a different 18" 12-spoke basket. This doesn't indicate a tie to a particular build house, and I have not investigated where the Fi Audio drivers are made.

 

2) The Ultimax 18" model uses aluminum shorting rings instead of copper, again to avoid breaking the bank on details and to enable us to be very competitive on pricing. The aluminum shorting rings provide very nearly the same effectiveness for inductance control as copper, at least in this design, such that the extra cost of copper shorting rings was not justifiable. Most of the extra inductance comes from the larger and much longer coil than the other Ultimax models (10" thru 15").

 

Glad to see all the interest in these drivers.

 

Best regards,

Rory Buszka - Product Manager

Dayton Audio

We can update that Ultimax15 right on up to the upcoming Ultimax18 now.

Really? Damn. I haven't heard from Justiin in ages. Didn't even know he had one of those drivers. But... what you say is true!

Looks like some 15-25Hz stuff was originally there in MoS and got filtered away.....too bad.

 

I'll add Kung-Fu Panda to the queue.

 

JSS

Definitely a missed opportunity for it to have a fairly decent native set of bass ratings. Oh well. I still really liked the movie. Probably one of the better 'comic book' movies ever.

No eta, it has a new surround which is currently a 15" BUT 18 is planned

Cool. Seriously one of my all time favorite 18's are my Sound Splinter RLp18's which TC manufactured. I always wanted a version that was always around but also maybe with your LMT coil. Basically an 18" version of the LMS-R. Something for someone who wants the LMS-Ultra but doesn't need shoebox sized boxes and/or 4kw input power capability. Bbbbuuuutttt I'm sure there is a reason these things don't exist. Probably make it harder to sell the Ultra. Mmm... maybe.

Its an in between, larger motor than the R and more excursion More sensitivity , but still.a 3" coil

Waaahhhh!! Build an 18" version. :(

Ppppuuuuhhhhllllleeeeeaaassssseeee?

Dang Mike you don't miss much do you?

 

Scott I believe that Kyle meant that the coil will not be his new linear design from the patent application but will still be the current variable LMT coil.

Ah. Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation.

 Yes, a lot less

 

It won't use the variable resistive coil as that is not developed as a product yet but its a 3" coil, copper over the poll, larger magnet.

 Ahhhrrooo? Not variable coil? So is it not LMS tech anymore?

I'm cornfused.

Lol, guess I'll just wait til you get to play with it.

Here's to hoping that the LMS-R2 has a bit of motor innovation I read about a while ago.

 

Fingers crossed here too, I would love to see the state of the art advanced.

Ooooofff. I tried to read that and...

A birdy told me the prototype LMS-R2 will be ready for testing soon. I'll try and get a beta version here from TC. Keep fingeres crossed.