maxmercy

Good to see you back. Disagreement is most often a good thing when done in Socratic fashion, after all the Socratic definition of argument is the means by which 2 differing points of view reach a higher truth. I understand where you are coming from, and am glad AVS got you some backing and your images back under your control. Will log off for a while while I run HG. JSS

YES!!!!!! Hunger Games on the way.... JSS

Yes. Harmy says SW DeEd 2.1 is almost wrapped up with new audio. I'll get that one up as soon as it is done. There are tons of improvements. JSS

Star Wars: Return of the Jedi Blu Ray: Level: 4 Stars (110.14dB composite) Extension: 1 Star (26Hz) Dynamics: 5 Stars (29dB) Execution: 4 Stars - Barely noticeable clipping, not nearly as obvious as in Empire Strikes Back BluRay Overall - 3.5 Stars Recommendation: Buy if a SW fan, if not, Rent. Still the best space battle ever filmed, IMO. Even though so much is going on, you can still follow the action. JSS

Thanks Max. I just think that most of the complaining we do (even though I am very guilty of this) is in no way productive other than stress relief. Now, onto better things: For FOH and others: I played back Telarc's 'Fantasy Adventure Album', specifically, these tracks: T.Rex! Splitting Hiars Cybergenesis Terminator: Theme Jurassic Lunch All have the 'you can destroy your speakers!' warning on them. I played them back at +6dBRef: As you can see in the attached file, the tracks are for real, and full bandwidth. JSS

Bosso/Ricci/FOH/Everyone, Keith Yates subwoofer testing was incredible, esp the waterfall graphs. I'm not sure why ToddAO switched away from the BagEnd subs. They used to use 16 across the floor and two under each main LCR, for the total of 22. I remember doing back of the napkin calculations that they got 12-14Hz capability out of that setup before the BagEnd limiters/processors would prevent too much overexcursion/distortion We are all in agreement re: LF transmission. It is the bandwidth that falls in what can right now be monitored that causes the most problems, as it falls lower on the ELC curves (easier to hear). In my experience (not very much, but analyzed decently scientifically within my means most of the time), PVG begins at different points with different amounts, with the full amount below the longest room's 1st mode. As each room dimension differs, you get more gain in that direction below its 1st mode frequency. It is infinitely more complex though, as construction materials, material resonances, and many more things come into play. But when generalizing, you can be sure that you will get something below the 1st room mode in the longest dimension. Since a full-size theater is not a small room most of the time, those PVG gain numbers don't start to kick in until some low frequencies. Even though you do pose some good examples of folks that have done it right to get very low extension playback, you cannot trivialize the matter of re-equipping a large mixing stage, esp when the people complaining (us) are not directly in the movie-making industry. First, you have to convince someone that it's worth it, someone who can authorize the following: 1. Cash outlay for the hardware and ensuring it all interconnects well with current systems 2. Mixing Stage downtime and the revenue loss it incurs 3. Cost for calibration 4. How to change/modify current EQ Systems (X-Curve) to the new extension capability This IS non-trivial, and requires a non-trivial amount of planning, manpower and cash. Case in point: I offered a local, small indy theater 20Hz capability (they barely reach 40Hz, no subwoofer). I offered to charge ONLY MATERIALS to do so, and build them some of lilmike's F20s, as they had the space behind the screen. The manager declined. Too much expense, for no guarantee in increased ticket sales. This is with ~3 sheets of ply for each sub (4 subs in total), and a $140 driver in each, and a single pro amp to drive them all. Sound trivial? Not so, apparently. He would have agreed to it had I 'donated' the setup completely (not currently within my means), noting that the theater does hold fundraisers every year to ensure they remain independent. Is someone here willing to 'donate' a 32 subwoofer setup with the 30+kW amplification to Todd-AO or some other mixing stage, complete with and setup the whole thing on what will most likely be an unrealistic timeline, as they will be losing money every minute you are 'setting up', unless you decide to do it outside of normal operating hours? If so, step right up and do so, and show them what they are missing. IMO, us saying that these are 'excuses' (and I believe that they are excuses) is using a little too much generalization. The real question is: What are we prepared to do about it? Seriously. What? It is plainly obvious that stating that these reasons/excuses has not changed anyone's mind, and that we simply can 'hope' for an unfiltered mix in a film, which is what we currently do. My father used to tell me that to point out a problem one time is good for awareness, but to do it over and over again without having a realistic solution for it is not so productive (he used more 'direct' words). Other than measuring films and complaining (I have done lots of this, esp for Avengers), AFAIK, I really have done nothing other than outfit my own home with decent playback capability, and tell others that they 'don't understand' until they experience it. Many others fall into this camp. Many others have done more. Are we prepared to do more? Contact film-makers? Sound Designers? Mixers? Folks like Tom Holman, who had enough drive and backing to do something about the state of film presentation back in 1977-1983? Are we ready to outfit some sound designer's rooms 'pro-bono'? These are smaller spaces, and would cost less to do so in.... If we aren't, I propose we let off some steam anytime a mix doesn't live up to expectations, but not continue to just keep complaining. I really like the fact that FilmMixer is willing to ask other industry folks about ULF, and how it gets added (or subtracted) from a film's final mix. If we know more about how this happens, maybe we can contact the folks that stay away from the high-passing and offer them our thanks for providing unfiltered mixes. JSS PS - On the measurement side of things: Return of the Jedi tonight. Also, coming from the 'Flix: Hunger Games Matrix Trilogy The LOTR I was expecting and M&C DVD are apparently 'long' and 'short' waits, respectively. The test disc will be very simple, and only include LFE content and silence in all channels, save for the 'worst case scenario' track, unless you guys want long sweeps in the LCRS channels to see what your receiver is actually doing to your signals.... I was thinking tones at 40-80Hz for calibration for SpecLab, and sweeps to be able to do a correction for soundcard/receiver rolloff in scene-caps (very easy to do, BTW, no polynomial functions or anything)

Star Wars:The Empire Strikes Back BluRay Level - 4 Stars (110.41dB composite) Extension - 2 Stars (23Hz) Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.1dB) Execution - 3 Stars - Several space flybys are decidedly distorted and/or clipped on the BluRay. Painful to hear. Overall - 3.25 Stars Recommendation - Buy. Best film of the SW Series, even though some of the effects are distorted. JSS

FOH, Here's the Telarc 1812 Overture. It is for real. Unfortunately, Music does not have the same calibration standards as film, and for this to show up as one of our 1-Star films, I had to run it at the equivalent of +6dBRef. It's -10dB point is exactly 5Hz, just like the CD cover says. JSS

And the EP4000 is on sale (wish I could get one, or four): http://www.walmart.c...uct_id=17656014 JSS

Tonight I'll try to get Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi done. Of course, this means no work on the tutorial or the test disc, but I do have those films and Netflix is still 1-2 days away from sending me the next batch of films. JSS

Wow bosso, that it a long post (just like this one will be), and I agree with most of it. Regarding the threshold of audibility of ULF and its transmission, and the paradox therein: ULF is known to have a very favorable coefficient of transmission even through solid materials. Ask anyone who has tried to design a ULF horn (lilmike and I being two) why the simulations say you should get more ULF; it simply bleeds away before it can get through the horn, among other things like compression ratios being too high for a good impedance match, and other problems. Put it simply, we cannot make ULF horn walls rigid enough. Another fact is that since no mixing facilities that I know of have serious ULF monitoring capability, they really cannot comment on the containment of ULF, just like you said. I can see why you see that this is frustrating, given the heckling you have gotten from the gallery in the past about the audibility or even the ability to sense ULF, and the great word 'artifact'. The research is out there. Humans can perceive ULF, with decently established thresholds through multiple trials for both deaf and normal hearing folks, and research suggests that the cochlea is the most sensitive instrument in our bodies to detect ULF, not our skin/hair/bones/etc. Transmission losses through solids are frequency dependent. It is harder to contain a lower frequency source, due to its higher transmission coefficient through solids, and even through air. But again, you run into the paradox of, "how loud does it have to be to hear it?" Another consideration is sympathetic vibration that may happen which could be annoying in adjacent spaces, probably more annoying than any 'heard' sound at that frequency. But I definitively agree with your points on signal chain and the ability to reproduce ULF, and the fact that it is possible for sound houses to monitor it, (but the expense would be non-trivial, given the levels the subs must reach, and the lower in frequency the pressure vessel gain begins in larger rooms, and the fact that the array, unless made linear enough, will beam and lobe at frequencies at the upper end of the LFE channel's bandwidth), even if the expense were equal to the vented systems they have now, trying to convince someone that the cash outlay is 'worth it' in light of the fact that no commercial theater can reproduce the content, no current mix environment can monitor it (except electronically), and only a very small percentage can reproduce it in the home. Those are non-trivial hurdles. I would like to do anything I can to make them smaller hurdles, though, as experiencing full bandwidth is impressive, to say the least. Impressive enough that you have been on a 10+ year crusade for it, and there are at least a few people who are interested in the spectral content in films who follow this thread, and others who are willing to populate the thread with data. As to the "no source has any content below 5Hz" people, let them believe what they want to believe. If they TRULY believe this, no graph will change their mind. NONE. They don't need education; they need St Jude. I think what needs to happen is some sound folks (and whoever does sound system purchasing for them) need to experience a presentation that is flat to 10Hz or lower, with content that includes infrasonics as well as content that filters it out; and see if they think that the difference is enough to outfit some sound design rooms or smaller mix rooms with the equipment to monitor it, and then measure ULF bleed (or lack of). Any bassheads with ULF capability live in southern california? JSS

Jim, I think the problem is not in producing the output, but containing it so it doesn't spill over into other rooms... JSS

Quoted from FilmMixer: "(I'm getting ready to start a film with the SD that did Bosso's favorite "Hunger Games.." I'll be sure to have a long discussion about his ideas and thoughts, which are sure to be educational for all.)" "We do remaster for DVD/BR a lot more now a days (doing one tomorrow in fact...)" Totally forgot about The Hunger Games and the fireball scene. Added to the queue. It will be very interesting to hear what the SD you will be working with has to say about ULF use. As to the second quote, what setup do you run (room size, acoustic treatment, etc) and what SPLs do you calibrate to for a nearfield mix? Is there a standard most adhere to for home mixes? I have seen pics of the stage you mainly work in, are there pics of the nearfield stages, or are they the same place with nearfield monitors used? Thanks again for contributing. I think I grasp the economics involved, and by my rating system, we have had just as many 4-Star+ films from 2007-2012 as below 4-Star films, but 2011 was a much better year for ULF than 2012. I think so much of the frustration is due to high expectations, and the 'let down' experienced when you realize a mix was highpassed. Again, it will be very interesting to hear things from the design perspective, and I thank you for not filtering when you mix. Can you say the name of the film you are going to be working on? JSS

These are the films on the way: Empire Strikes Back Return of the Jedi Master and Commander DVD LOTR and Matrix Trilogies Live Free or Die Hard Cloverfield Inception The Haunting DVD Titan AE Pearl Harbor Running Scared The Day After Tomorrow Knowing Batman:Under the Red Hood Pulse Percy Jackson The Grey Serenity The Hurt Locker Hellboy II Finding Nemo Monster House The Dark Knight Returns In other news, I have been making some progress on the scenecap tutorial. I have found out a way to encode an AVCHD/DVD/BD-5 with sweeps and tones in 5.1 Dolby Digital with no dialnorm or filtering. It will have sweeps and tones on it in order to be able to calibrate SpecLab so that everyone can have a flat to DC scene captures (for those who want to contribute to the thread). It will also have a 'disaster scenario' track where all 5 channels + LFE are encoded at 0dBFS, for a total of a 123dB signal. It will be a good check for clipping anywhere in the signal chain, as it represents nearly the absolute worst case scenario for your subwoofer out (I can't encode in 7.1, oh well). As soon as I get that disc together and the tutorial (hopefully around New Years), I'll post it up and we can hopefully have others contributing to the thread soon, and I will link as appropriate to the proper posts. In the meantime, I'll keep craning out the PvA graphs as I get the films. I may be able to make a 'deluxe version' of the test disc with some of the Dolby, THX and DTS trailers, but it will only work for folks with BluRay burners. JSS

Done. Later this week is LOTR Extended Editions and Master and Commander BluRay vs DVD JSS

Scott, I'll add the scene caps to the Superman Returns post. It was a 4.25 Star film Here's where I posted it: http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/page__view__findpost__p__466 FilmMixer, Do you know why someone would use a 4th or 8th order highpass near 30Hz for most of TDKR, vs just the opening scene? I should complete the Star Wars Saga today or tomorrow.

Genius. My fav: "20 years earlier, Chewbacca was second in command of the defence of his planet." JSS

I was also blown away by the content in FOTP. It has sub-10Hz at the level of a 3 to 4-Star film, then adds another 10dB for the theatrical subwoofer region! Too bad I can barely sit through the movie. Giovanni Ribisi (sp?) just grates at me in this film. I have found out how to make a BD-5 to calibrate levels for those who will be contributing scene waterfall captures, and to see if a person's AVR will clip with 0dBFS+ (with bass management). More on this later. Its looking like Underworld:Awakening will get the LF Film of the Year for 2012. I should get TDKR later this month. In the meantime, I have the following films coming: Empire Strikes Back Return of the Jedi Master and Commander DVD LOTR and Matrix Trilogies Live Free or Die Hard Cloverfield Inception The Haunting DVD Titan AE Pearl Harbor Running Scared The Day After Tomorrow Knowing Batman:Under the Red Hood Pulse Percy Jackson The Grey Serenity The Hurt Locker Hellboy II Finding Nemo Monster House And I'll run a chart for the Telarc 1812 Overture and Also Sprach Zarathrusta for FOH... JSS

Superman Returns: Level - 4 Stars (110.29dBHz) Extension - 5 Stars (1Hz) Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.85dB) Execution - 4 Stars - Just a little more level and you would be in 5-Star territory. Very well done LF mix. Overall - 4.25 Stars Recommendation - Rent. This is a good film, but I don't like it enough to buy. Others may disagree. JSS Scene Captures:

Flight of the Phoenix: Level - 5 Stars (114.39dB composite) Extension - 5 Stars (8Hz) Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.14dB) Execution - 5 Stars - This is a classic and well done LFE film. Many demos done to this track. Overall - 5 Stars - Only the second film to earn a 5 Star overall rating. This thing is a beast. Finer PvA settings miss the 8-11Hz transient that happens around the 57min mark and garners this film its 5 star extension rating. Recommendation - Buy. Even if just for demo material. The film is OK to good, the bass excellent. JSS

Bosso, Well I hope you change your mind, but we'll press on, hopefully you'll keep tabs on the place. I want the data-bass to get populated not only for my curiousity, but many others here. As to having a patient complain to the masses, nothing stops them as it is. Sites like Angie's List and HealthGrades do that 24 hours a day. If people can prove that a doc has treated them in an incompetent fashion, they don't post about it, unless they are idiots. They sue. I think you should say something to the AVS mods about the breach of copyright, though, if that is the case. I have simply decided not to let the turkeys get me down. Now, onto some graphs! Assassin's Bullet (5.1 DTS-HD MA): Level - 3 Stars (108.95dB composite) Extension - 5 Stars (8Hz) Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.3dB) Execution - 4 Stars - While I didn't care for the film too much, the LF was very well done, lots of variety. Overall - 4.25 Stars Recommendation - Rent. Nice take on the espionage thriller, but not enough re-watchability to call it a buy. Up next: Flight of the Phoenix and Superman Returns.... JSS

IMO, no one should have even mentioned an 'alternative' thread over at AVS. Oh well.... Bosso, just let idiots like JPC link what they want to link, d/l what they want to d/l. If I let every less-than-friendly patient who didn't give a rat's ass about their health get to me, and the years I have spent learning how to best care for them, I'd have quit by now....there are some that cannot be helped, and who will always have criticism (to put it politely) for you even trying. It is best to simply forget about them, knowing you offered them the proper advice. That's what I do, at least. The point is, I really enjoy and study the graphs, so do the folks on this thread. Screw the other clowns. They will never change, and only derive joy from a reaction. That's why we came here in the first place. Let's just keep doing our thing. I'll get that tutorial posted up sooner rather than later if you won't be posting anymore, though. I can't do screencaps + PvAs, not until I get caught up with the backlog....which is now only 27 deep. So, in about 1-2 months, only new films will be posted, and compared to old favs. Back on topic.... I hope FilmMixer will be able to let us know why TDKR was mixed with a highpass, but I completely understand if he won't be able to. I'll have the Saga and a few others done by the week's end as well as updating the 1st post links. On the bright side, Ricci and Kyle got a lot of hits out of this to the data-bass..... Now, on to the most important topic tonight.....what film to watch....I'm thinking Sin City..... See you guys on Sunday, I have a party to host tomorrow night... Ricci...added Monster House to the queue. Thinking about adding the Harry Potter Series..... JSS

As to the possible avs troll invasion: The rules are simple for trolls. Do not feed them. JPC, GaryJ, and company thrive on the fact that people REPLY to their BS. If everyone ignores what they say, they go find a place where people will reply. I have full confidence in the mods here, and in all of the folks who follow this thread to keep it on track. Just don't feed them. If you do, they will return. The reason they love the avs thread is for the sh*tfights. Notice they only post when a fight is about to go down, or to start one. I'll update the first post index soon, and Bosso, thanks for the AotC caps! Although I like the Cavalcade trailer more, the BluRays have the Amazing Life trailer at the end of the credits, and those mushrooms are responsible for that huge above 115dB peak.

I should have the SW Saga finished by the weekend. I read this 3 years ago, and it is a damned funny critique of the prequels and special editions: http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/index.php Coming soon also FOTP and Assassin's Bullet. JSS

FilmMixer, Do you know these people? If you do, could you ask them why they chose the highpass? I really would like to know if what we have been postulating (highpass to enable louder scenes) was what happened. Also, how can we find out what mix is on the BluRay? IMAX? Theatrical? NearField? Thanks for chiming in! JSS