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maxmercy

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Everything posted by maxmercy

  1. maxmercy
    Scott, You just described PERFECTLY what I heard at IMAX digital when I saw TDKR. I just thought it was bad calibration on the theater's part..... JSS
  2. maxmercy
    Is it like the ship in the beginning of AotC, Episode II? That had tremendous 43Hz content when it flies by. On DVD, when dialnorm is compensated for, it reads at around 116dB.....will be interesting to see this one graphed. JSS
  3. maxmercy
    I sincerely hope that will not be the case. I should have the SW BDs done by the weekend. I am happy to report that the BDs are mixed nearly the same (within a dB) level-wise as he DVDs, if you watched the DVDs with the 4dB Dialnorm attenuation. I do have to say, though, those 4dB make a palpable difference..... Also I have Underworld:Awakening, Flight of the Phoenix, Superman Returns and Assassin's Bullet on the way from the 'Flix. When caught up, we should have 60+ titles in the data-bass.... JSS PS - I am still working on the tutorial....
  4. maxmercy
    Just for kicks, I put together dating for the above 4-star films: Even though we have about 30 more films left to graph, some of which are heavy hitters, we did have Battle:LA and X-Men:1st Class last year, HTTYD the year before, and Star Trek and 9 in 2009. It looks like we can expect a true 4.5+ star film once a year, with some 4+ star films interspersed in between..... 2012 looks like is a suck year for ULF. When we got it in WotT, it was probably a home mix with limited dynamics. Amazing Spider Man has some ULF, but just lacks level as well, even though the dynamics are there. It just really sucks that there is a disconnect in the sound continuity in the case of TDKR, just as there was in Avengers. EDIT - list removed to preserve U/L space for charts. JSS
  5. maxmercy
    I heard audible distortion in DKR with the firing up of the 'Bat' in IMAX digital. That made me think it would have lots of subsonics since they use ported subs that I thought were flailing trying to reproduce below tuning. Apparently it may have just been heavy hands at the mixing console like in Immortals, with limiters doing some of the soft clipping. You say that it sounds "exactly like in the cinema". There are some folks in the movie-making business who want EXACTLY this, the same presentation for both venues, home and cinema, and high-passing is a way of guaranteeing it to a certain extent. I really hope that is not so. As far as mic'ing and the overall distorted sound of DKR, I have yet to see it on BD. I have read that IMAX cameras are so noisy that audio must be nearly completely re-constructed in post production, but with the same sound team as Dark Knight, I cannot see them dropping the ball like this. Maybe a near-field mix is to blame? Who knows. I probably will not buy it. The story alone is not enough to watch it again, I thought the sound would make up for it, esp with the poor, distorted presentation that IMAX digital gave me with shrill vocals and 'punches' which actually were near the limit of ear pain. I'll wait for it on Rental, be it Redbox or Netflix. I hope that because Lionsgate is just involved and not running the whole show, that we may actually get HD audio on the rental discs.... Here's something we may not have thought of: If we have brought enough attention to the ULF content in films through AVS and this site, that enough film-folks have taken notice, and also note that it cannot be monitored on mixing stages or sound editing rooms, we may have doomed ourselves out of more ULF. I sincerely hope not, I wish some of the film professionals could experience the great ULF mixes on a flat-to-10Hz-or-under system. But economics may be at work here as well. Mixes 'for the home' probably assume TV speakers in general, with a smaller percentage having 5.1 HTIB, 7.1 HTIB, and actually capable systems in that diminishing order. The true reference-capable to 25Hz with low disortion home setups are probably few. The true reference to single digits with low distortion are probably fewer. I have visited websites for a few post facilities that have done near-field mixes for films, and the speakers in those rooms are not what I would consider capable of reference playback at low distortion. I do not think there is a standard for nearfield mixing. And let's not forget: all of the sound professionals that create and mix these sounds have bosses. Some may be simply following orders, even though they would like to have as realistic a presentation as possible were they to have artistic license... I just wonder who we can appeal to that FOH hinted at. Who is the person that decides to filter these tracks for BD release? JSS PS - StarWars BluRays PvAs coming. A few surprises in those.
  6. maxmercy
    Damn. Looks like I'll be waiting for it on the 'Flix... FilmMixer, is there any way we can find out where near field mixes (if any) were done for a soundtrack? JSS
  7. maxmercy
    Is this DVD or Blu? Damn, I was expecting a lot down to 20Hz or thereabouts from this one after seeing it in IMAX digital...... JSS
  8. maxmercy
    Mojave, would you be interested in providing Peak and Average dBFS output for a bass-managed, SW out for specific films as a comparison to what I am currently doing? If the SpecLab connection with JRMC can be made, that would be great. JSS
  9. maxmercy
    All 1st post links updated. I will keep using the 1Hz/1sec FFT. If someone thinks that some films are getting shortchanged, let me know and I will run at 2Hz/0.5sec FFT. JSS
  10. maxmercy
    Alien vs Predator: Beginning of film: http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j207/tehbigshow/AVPdcintro.gif Ship Fires on Earth: http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j207/tehbigshow/AVPshipflythrough.gif DVD Menu http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j207/tehbigshow/AVPmenu.gif Level - 4 Stars (110.5dB composite) Extension - 2 Stars (23Hz) Dynamics - 5 Stars (30.02dB) Execution - 4 Stars. Overall - 3.75 Stars Recommendation - Rent. Everything below 30Hz is in the first 3 minutes of the film, one scene in particular, about 1 second's worth. JSS
  11. maxmercy
    I am still working on the tutorial, and I will update the first post index as I get time..... JSS
  12. maxmercy
    And finally one worth posting about. How to Train Your Dragon: Level - 4 Stars (112.3dB composite) Extension - 5 Stars (2Hz) Dynamics - 5 Stars (31.35dB) Execution - 5 Stars - What FOH and Bosso said. Overall - 4.75 Stars - Add some effects above 60Hz with some weight and you rival WotW. Recommendation - Buy, just like the above folks said. Terrific soundtrack, great film. Yes, that graph is correct. The signal asks your speakers to play back a 2Hz tone at 117.8dB at one point. JSS
  13. maxmercy
    Now onto some better stuff. Prometheus: Level - 3 Stars (108.67dB) Extension - 3 Stars (17Hz) Dynamics - 3 Stars (24.87dB) Execution - 4 Stars - Could have used some more level, but decent overall. Reminded me of the Iron Man films. Overall - 3.25 Stars. Nice, but not enough to deal with the big boys. Recommendation - Rent. This is a good film, but has big holes in it. For the best and funniest critique, please read this: http://www.toplessro...metheus_faq.php JSS
  14. maxmercy
    OK guys, sorry to hold out so long, very busy at work, as it is our recruiting season. But, I have FOUR for you today. Let's start with the also-rans: SuckerPunch: Level - 1 Star (102.77dB composite). Extension - 1 Star (30Hz) Dynamics - 3 Stars (24.44dB) Execution - 2 Stars - Wow, what a let down. With the visuals in this film, this could have been a monster mix. Instead, in with the also-rans..... Overall - 1.75 Stars. Another 'could have been'...... Recommendation - Rent only for the visuals, maybe it could be played on mute as a party is going on... Speed Racer: Level - 2 Stars (106.32dB composite). Extension - 4 Stars (13Hz) Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.32) Execution - 3 Stars - Decent mix, just not very loud, and filtered. The dynamic range is there, the effects are great, but it just has to be turned up a few dB! Overall - 3.5 Stars. Not bad. Great visuals, and campy, just like the old TV show. Damn I love the Mach 5. Not fond of the Mach 6. Recommendation - Rent. JSS Suckerpunch: Speed Racer:
  15. maxmercy
    HTTYD is a ULF monster. It is the second time I have ever recorded above 115dB (WotW is the first). It is at 2-3Hz. Graphs tomorrow. Overall 4.5, if more >50Hz effects would have been used, easy 5 overall. I can see why you like this one, bosso.... JSS
  16. maxmercy
    Have some woodworking to do, tutorial and updating to do, and then if I have time will graph HTTYD today. This warm weather is allowing me to finish projects I didn't think I would get to until Spring. As far as the FFT, I will still graph the 1Hz one, and as I get time, or others contribute, we will fill in the 2Hz resolution PHvA graphs.only if some significant differences are noted will the ranking scheme change. As far as JRMC, if SpecLab will be able to be 'plugged in' to a bass-managed output, I will definitely consider using it, as long as JRMC is not super $$. Not having to correct roll off would be great. JSS
  17. maxmercy
    Yes. But, how does JRMC get the data in the first place? I do not have a BD drive on my POS laptop that runs XP. It would be great if SpecLab could get as direct a feed as possible. But an A/D conversion has to happen due to the possibility of 0dBFS+ with bass management, one that has analog headroom to account for 0dBFS + 10dB (theoretical max). What I am trying to say is: do you rip the discs then run them in JRMC? Bosso, I will update the index as I get time. Will do that and work on tutorials this weekend. Got HTTYD today from the 'Flix. Will check it out. Ricci, once solid FFT bin widths are determined, any chance we would be able to integrate this data permanently into data-bass.com like the driver ratings, with quick comparos a click away? Thanks for the enthusiasm to contribute to this thread. We just have to all be able to generate the same graphs so all will be apples-apples. I'm glad we only got less than 30 films in before we decided to question the bin width...... Tonight I'll actually be watching films, so no new data, although I have Speed Racer and SuckerPunch graphed. Both are very low in level with the 1Hz bin width. Not sure if this is due to 'home mixes' or not, but they are both very tame. JSS
  18. maxmercy
    Guys, I have a little one sick at home tonight, so I will try to get some stuff done this weekend. I think doing PvA at 2Hz and 1/2sec FFT is the best compromise between giving the transients their just due and keeping the strength of the long effects. Any objections? I'll run through the first few movies I did (the ones that set up the scoring system) to see how the scoring goes. Also will work on a tutorial that includes how to compensate for roll off for scene caps. For those interested, you will need soho54's audio test DVD available on AVS, as well as SpecLab and Room EQ Wizard from HTShack. After that tutorial is done, and we settle on FFT settings, a tutorial on how to do PvA graphs will be done. I got Prometheus today from the 'Flix....... JSS
  19. maxmercy
    FM, The soundworks site is very good, nicely done videos. What or where is the best way to find out who the main sound designer and mixer are for a particular film? If the end-title credits can be sometimes wrong, how can we find out who to properly credit? I'm sure you understand we are doing this in our spare time, and errors can be a part of this thread, as much as we try to minimize them. I appreciate you stopping by, because while we can speculate as to why a film graphs a certain way, you may have the direct means to explain why it is so. JSS
  20. maxmercy
    Ricci, With a 2Hz bin width, we halve the FFT time to 1/2 sec, and halve the resolution. The rise time is also halved, and the waterfall/spectrum graph is updated every ~30msec with a 93% overlap. With a 4Hz bin width, we have a 1/4 sec FFT, but only 40 entire bins for the entire LF bandwidth! Even though the graph is updating every ~16msec, it looks like a 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer..... I may start a poll on this before I graph any more films. I remember debating this a while back, but seeing a few films really get shortchanged recently that rely on mainly transient effects may move me to using a 2Hz bin width. I think 4Hz may be too much, unless combined with the 1Hz info, but then we are looking at two separate graphing sessions, as a film runs in real-time. If we are able to get input from several different 'measures', we may be able to do multiple passes on a single film to see what is truly there without being selective in the time or frequency domain.....I'll work on those tutorials this weekend. I'm sure we can all agree that scene graphs should remain hi-res though, correct? I think so. The value of scene graphs is knowing the freq range of an effect, with level being secondary. Thanks for the film suggestions, I will add them to the queue..... I do agree on doing a comparison on different versions of a film, with the stuff we have found so far. I have the M&C BluRay disc. JSS
  21. maxmercy
    I account for Dialnorm because it is something 'added' in for the home environment, and something that THX receivers will adjust for as well. If I left Dialnorm attenuation in, BlackHawk Down would have been 7dB low on the DD recording! I used PCM, which is curiously 7dB higher than the DD track...... Transformers 1 BluRay has -4dB Dialnorm, ROTF BluRays, one has -4dB Dialnorm, one doesn't. When you adjust the one that does up 4dB, the graphs are almost identical. I was posting the above, so I didn't see your comments earlier. What do you think of the FFT bin size? I think all scene caps should be hires, but the PvA should probably be changed to better show true levels, since Level, Extension, and Dynamics are taken directly from that graph. Do you think 2 separate bin sizes (wide bin for Level/Dynamics, narrow bin for Extension), or just a compromise in between bin? Also, I still cannot explain the differences you and I see in ALVH. It's actually pretty weird. JSS
  22. maxmercy
    OK, Here are some comparisons of three separate FFT settings. The settings are: 1. 1Hz resolution, but 1 second integration time 2. 2Hz resolution, but 1/2 second integration time 3. 4Hz resolution, but 1/4 second integration time All three have pluses and minuses. For example, in the 1Hz FFT, we can see the individual frequency makeup of an effect with great resolution in frequency, but short-lived effects, like gunshots, get 'averaged out' because the FFT looks at a second of data at a time, adding 63 miliseconds to each and looking at a one second interval again. So if an effect lasts more than a half second, it shows up as very strong. If an effect is very short, even if narrowband, the FFT will show it as lower in dB, because it got 'averaged' with the rest of the stuff going on that second. The lower resolution FFTs take less time to integrate, but lose resolution. So gunshots are shown at a more accurate level, but resolution is lost. Welcome to the FFT as an analysis tool. As your integration time drops, your resolution drops, but you can now can accurately graph the level of broadband, fast effects with more precision. I chose 3 samples. 1. Danley's Fireworks recording - This is 100% wideband, fast effects. You can see that the shape of the curve does not change much, even though the level definitely rises. 2. Disney's BluRay trailer - This is a mix of mainly fast, wideband effects, with a little narrowband effects too. Some explosions were given a broadband subsonic 'wallop' below 11Hz, and above 140Hz, which 'lingered' just a little longer with each explosion, so they show up VERY well on the 1Hz FFT, but not as well on the 4Hz FFT. 3. Dolby's Spheres Trailer - This trailer has a few booms, but two long duration effects with the strongest signal at 22Hz. , as well as a fast, LF downward sweep from ~50 to ~20Hz, varying in intensity as it goes. You can clearly see the single 22Hz contribution in the 1Hz sweep, but the fast sweep only spends a few miliseconds at each Hz, so the 1Hz, 1 second FFT doesn't have time to register it as very loud. Note that the sweep is recorded at a higher level than the sustained 22Hz tone, but the 1Hz FFT simply cannot do it justice. The shorter FFTs show poorer resolution, but definitely show the level of the sweep as larger, as the 'rise time' for each bin is shorter, and the sweep spends more time in each bin, beacuse each FFT bin is wider in the 2Hz and 4Hz FFTs. This may explain why films like the Incredible Hulk, Thor, WotW and ROTF have gotten such great scores with the current FFT scheme (1Hz, 1sec). If the effects are longer lasting, they will have more level with such an FFT. Star Trek, with it's tremendous warp scenes, got shortchanged. The warps are broadband effects, and would not show up very strongly in a peak graph unless a wider bin size was used. I propose we look at both 1Hz and 4Hz bin widths, or compromise with a 2Hz bin-width for PvA graphs. What do you guys think? I hope I explained this correctly.... JSS
  23. maxmercy
    Bosso, Thanks! I'll get them indexed soon. Did Thor clip your input? Also, ALVH may have gotten somewhat short-changed by the Hann window. I'll re-run when I get time with Nuttall. But I am still concerned that it looked like the levels you were getting were on par with Thor, but I got just 'meh' levels... Infrasonic, I'll get a tutorials up this weekend so ppl can help with screencaps and Peak/Avg. Later tonight I will put up a comparo of wide v narrow bin peak/avg for different THX and Dolby trailers for input. If enough ppl can contribute, we may be able to do both narrow and wide bin analysis so that short-lived effects do not get relatively shortchanged as they currently do by the peak/avg graph.... Ideally, we would use a wide-bin FFT for Level and Dynamics, and a narrow-band FFT for Extension and for better resolution. JSS
  24. maxmercy
    Oh jeez, guys. At some point over the last month, my SpecLab settings went from Nuttall back to Hann. This may help to explain why some of the latest crop of films graphed may be underwhelming. I will run a few of them with Nuttall windowing (it has a quicker rise time, so picks up brief effects better), to see if this is at fault, and to find out when the mistake happened. I hope not too many of the graphs will be changed.... Damn. But, this does open up a VERY good debate. With the current scheme, I can track resolution in frequency well (bin width of 1Hz). But Amplitude resolution suffers to a certain extent, because as the bin width decreases in size, the length that the program looks at the signal increases, 'masking' very quick effects that can be powerful, like the gunshot in ALVH, or the Gatling cannon shots into the bricks in The Dark Knight. By changing my bin width to 5Hz, quicker events can more easily be graphed, with a better picture of overall amplitude. Or, I could run both for each film, but that means running less films.... What do you guys think? I'll post up a comparison of a Dolby Trailer with each later today so you can see the difference. JSS
  25. maxmercy
    Very nice! I make a spreadsheet for every film, and have several other spreadsheets for all the dBHz data, a sheet just for graph comparisons, and one just for star ratings. My process is this: I graph the film using SpecLab (with Nutall windowing, thanks bosso!), using my BluRay player, connected to my AVR with HDMI, and I set the crossover points of all LCR/S speakers as high as I can (250Hz in my case). I also set the LFE low pass at 250Hz. I then have found settings so that a known reference track (soho54's Audio Test DVD's LFE tones) can be played back and analyzed for proper level and for any roll off in the signal chain, and to set accurate levels in SpecLab. If roll off is found, it is addressed by running a very slow sweep with Room EQ Wizard throughout the 0-160Hz range. This is then captured and analyed with DataThief, a shareware program. In order to capture data well, I have made my Speclab background white, peak and average traces black, and grid very light grey so DataThief can accurately graph the trace and export it to a text file with 0.5Hz resolution. Then I find the roll off point, and generate polynomial correction functions so that any further graphed material will be corrected properly after export to Excel. Once the correction functions are defined, you simply run the film while running SpecLab, then capture the screen, use DataThief to get the data into a text file, and import the text into Excel, make the proper roll off correction using simple cut and paste in the Excel file, and graph and analyze and save the data. That's the recipe. I can do the analysis for a single film in 15-20mins, and for multiple films in less time per film, hence me posting several at once. I have Speed Racer and SuckerPunch screen capped (both are tremendous visual films, but are very poor in level), but I am waiting for a few more so I can use time more efficiently. JSS PS - The reason some Avg tracings have an upward turning tail without the same in the peak trace is due to over-correction. Many of the lower level films will have such low <10Hz content that for my SpecLab settings (+5dB to -70dB), the graph is running flat for the bottom 2-5Hz, hence the upward tail due to correction applied to the 'flat spot' in the screencaps, vs a sharply downward sloped line. -10dB on my screencapped speclab graph correlates to 0dBFS, or 115dB. The reason I leave 15dB of headroom is that, for any reason, a 0dBFS signal would be sent in phase to every channel in a 7.1 system, I could track it. It would be over 125dB. No film has come close to even breaking the 115dB barrier at any one frequency, except for Attack of the Clones on DVD. When Dialnorm is accounted for, there is a 116dB peak in the low 40's, Hz-wise, when the Naboo ship flys by in the opening scene. The BluRay is lower in level by almost 6dB, IIRC.
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