Replacement AVR / processor

[Kvalsvoll]

@SME, the typical 2-ch system actually lack basic and necessary functionality, such as delay on main speakers. This is the case for most 2-ch preamplifiers, including those with dedicated subwoofer outputs, even the digital ones. The most sophisticated may have some sort of low pass filter on the sub output, usually fixed slope and cut off frequency. 

And if the system has a AV-processor/AVR, they usually bypass all processing for 2-ch listening, in "direct" or "pure" mode. This efficiently disables all calibration settings for bass system integration - no delay, no filter on the mains. Alternatively, a dedicated 2-ch preamp is installed - all necessary functionality is lost.

So, it is no wonder the typical 2-ch system sounds better with subwoofers disabled. Even if they know how to set this up properly, it is not possible because the playback chain lacks necessary functionality.

Of relevance for this thread: Note that the amplifier test was done using a quite ordinary AVR as processor/DAC for playback, and no one has been able to detect any audible difference from the original to the sample that was passed through the playback-recorder loop 4x times. A reasonably good AVR, used correctly, does not have any "sound" at all, it is completely transparent.

All this is caused by bad advice given from manufacturers and dealers who want to sell more equipment and does not understand how to set up a sound system properly.

[SME]

@Kvalsvoll, I was talking about 2 channel systems with full-range speakers without subwoofers.  They don't generally need delay because the low frequency drivers are co-located with the rest of the drivers.  This includes speakers using either passive crossovers to the LF section or active crossovers (with built-in amplification).  Some speaker / amp combos can extend as low as most subs go.  Either way, the integration is relatively trivial.

It could be said that using subwoofers, in separate room locations, solves one problem but creates another.  It (partly) solves the problem of poor in-room response in the sub frequencies at the locations that are otherwise ideal for the speaker.  It creates the new problem of integrating the speaker and sub response, which typically affects a region of frequencies that is crucial for reproduction of bass in music, around 60-120 Hz.  I'd argue that, for the vast majority of music, accurate reproduction of those frequencies is far more important than the extra octave or two of extension that people using subs chase after.  Nevertheless, I'd bet that the vast majority of systems using subs have serious frequency response problems in that range because this integration is not at all trivial.

I'm not saying that using separate subs is inferior to using standalone speakers.  A system that uses separate subs will absolutely out-perform a system using standalone speakers, *if* they they are configured optimally.  Rather, achieving the optimal configuration for a system with subs is not at all trivial.  It's hard enough to do with a single sub, and enormously more complicated with multiples.  Most consumers don't have the knowledge or equipment to achieve even half-decent results, and even the more advanced consumers struggle to get "good" results.  Count me among them.  I have more DSP capability than just about anyone on these forums along with subwoofers-only response that looks almost "picture perfect" , yet I'm still trying to find the best strategy for integrating my subs + MBMs with my mains.  

[Kvalsvoll]

@SME  , this discourse kind of crossed the OT border somewhere, and should probably be moved to another thread..

I was going to say you are wrong, but I actually have to say I mostly agree. When I got back into audio some years ago, I found that people could not set up the system properly to get a good integration, and this severely compromises sound quality, because the timing in the most important frequency range goes bad. 

But it is not extremely difficult to get it a reasonably good result, at least so it sounds better than main speakers alone. But it requires much more than the casual buyer can do, because you need to measure. When you have the measurement capability, it is possible to achieve predictable results using a manageable set of rules.

Especially for 2-ch, the systems often end up with a very low crossover, because that sounds better. And does sound better, if you are not able to set the delay on the mains properly.

[Ukko Kari]

I placed an order for the Denon DN-700 AVP ( no internal amplifiers, features XLR and unbalanced outputs ) and Denon DN-500BRMKII player. To clean up some of the wiring, I was looking at short snakes. Hosa makes a short XLR-XLR snake that would work for my needs, the XLR-802 8 ch snake.

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/575242-REG/Hosa_Technology_XLR_802_XLR803_8_Channel_Male_XLR.html

The Denon pieces are going to be a week to 10 days out.

[Ukko Kari]

[maxmercy]

Let us know what you think when you receive it.

SME/Kvalsvoll, I would be interested in hearing each of your strategies for Sub/LCRS integration...perhaps another thread?

JSS

[Ukko Kari]

Both shipped.

[Ukko Kari]

Just received notification that the DN-700AVP has shipped.

[lilmike]

Right on!  Hope it works well for you. 

Snakes like that are the only way to go. I'm looking at buying a long snake, then cutting it up and making custom ones for my rack, things will be so much cleaner. 

I am doing speaker "snakes" like that too, running L and R in a 4-wire cable from the amps to a Neutrik 4-pole in the wall. Once I used a consistent wiring pattern, that has worked well.

[Ukko Kari]

Just inserted into the chain, and powered it on for the first time.

The knobs are lit around the outside, with recessed lighting rings that make the knobs appear to float. They are bright, I haven't investigated whether or not they can be turned off yet.

[Ukko Kari]

 

The lighting around the knobs is too bright for my taste, and too bright to use on the front wall with a projection screen. I may have to install some O-rings on the knobs like others have done on the iNukes to limit the direct viewing of the white ! LED's.

[Ukko Kari]

Not sure why, but playing audio from computer > UCA-202 sound card > optical input of Denon DN-700 AVP results in a small 'thump' every time there is no sound output, IE: between songs, or between videos on YouTube. There were no issues previously with the same sound card to an old Marantz. Zero thump / pop noise. Using XLR from the BD player, it is dead silent between songs, no thump or pop noise at all.

If that is the case, I may have to look into a new sound card as well, something with a lot better cross-talk performance between channels.

I have been looking at acquiring a Focusrite Scarlet 2i2, based on what I have read. Any other suggestions?