jay michael

On a side note SME, maybe check out this bandcamp page.  A friend of ours runs this label out of the US but he's originally from Australia.  There are some albums free for download in your choice of download quality.  The  second album listed is a free download with a wide variety of tunes, I have only given it a background listen so far but there seemed to be a few gems in there.  More importantly though,  if you explore the page some of the albums are available as hi res downloads 44khz, 96khz 24 bit etc. Id be curious what your impressions of the sound quality are with these higher bit rate versions.

SME, Thanks for taking a peak and the tunes.  They were just a selection of randomly pulled tunes from a quick youtube search that at quick listen had a bit of variety similar to sounds we are into.  If I get a moment tonight Ill take a peak at my collection to post a few of my favorites.  Psytrance is a funny one, I used to eat and live everyday some 10 or more years ago.  Father and family life has shifted my musical interests quite a bit and its rare to never that we play psytrance in the house.... unless we are trying to burn off some of our daughters energy before bed with a living room stomp Haha!  As with a lot of electronic music a vast amount of it is pretty terrible, psytrance probably has one of the highest shit to quality ratio's out there.... but when its good, in the right set and setting (forest dancefloor in the rocky mountains) it is quite the experience.  

Reflecting on your comments, that first track is from a fella named Tim from Australia.   He runs a long running record label called zenon records that specializes in this particular sound.  People have coined that sound as almost its own genre called zenonesque progressive.  I agree with your assessment of the sound having less of a solid impact type force to more of a pulsing undulating type bass to which can be a challenge to get right on the dance floor as subs often sound quite boomy with that kind of signal so its hard for the mid highs to find a home.   Take away too much of the sub output and then the music doesn't feel weighty enough to give the desired effect the producer was going for.

The second track on another listen I would agree with you as well.  I think this is a good example of a lot of modern music today where its overly compressed and perhaps done so on purpose to have a very in your face kind of sound.  I hear this in a lot of music, not just electronic.   I get the sense that this youtube upload may be suffering from a poor quality upload as when listening to it in my headphones last night it didn't sound good at all. When I posted it yesterday my first listen was from my crappy office computer speakers which is even worse!

The last track on first listen took me back to the sound that I think was much more consistent with the popular sounds of psytrance of 10 years ago or so.  Less pushed with more of a relaxed dynamic with a clean kick and bass line.  You are definitely right to think that the sounds do evolve over time.  Productions styles, equipment used to make it,   and techniques change with new differing technologies in the studio.  10 plus years ago I would estimate the bulk of the music was created exclusively on hardware synthesizers where now most of it would be created using software based synths. I would suspect that is what you heard in the difference between the track I posted and from your stuff.  There is a small but emerging fad happening in the music now where people are going back to hardware synthesis and I hope that will bring back some of that folder feel again.  If I look back over my own collection I would say there are perhaps 3 or 4 very different "sounds" and production qualities that the music of each era had.  Each era of the sounds differ so much to a point where on a djing level it would be pretty challenging to make those different era's of tracks mix well with each other as sonically they are quite different. 

The tracks you posted.... the first one for sure was created with hardware synthesis, very typical style 10, maybe even 15 to 20 years ago.   Pushmipulyu is a favorite of mine! Released some really amazing psychedelic dub and downtempo tunes!

You previously mentioned using a spectral analyzer to see what is happening on tracks?  Can you recommend one to me?  Sounds like it could be a helpful tool.

Cheers 

Also.. thanks heaps to both of you for engaging me on this discussion!  Josh, with those examples I posted to you feel the othorn has the speed and precision to offer good sub output for this style of music?  How would the skhorn fair?  Different? Better or worse?

SME,  Totally feeling you on the spl discussion and agree with everything you said.  I find keeping the system well within its limits and no where near its maximum is key to getting the best sound out of it.  With lots of reserve in the tank one can tweak those key frequencies to maximize warmth and impact without negatively effecting the overall sound experience.  I would say I tend to run my tops a little softer than my subs to try and maximize the weight of the sound keeping the overall system within a reasonable overall volume.  I never keep a consistent volume throughout the night either, Always ride a wave between a little lighter and a little hotter to give ears a break so people feel they can stay longer without fatigue.

Sorry, I missed your point a bit with the center channel then.  I dont know if there is a practical way to pull this off I would need different processing to create a separate center channel.  One of my best mates wrote an album all in 5.1 some years ago and we did set up the pa in a 5.1 configuration perhaps 3 or 4 times to get the most out of his amazing effort.   It worked surprisingly well on the dancefloor... other than everyone cramming themselves into the center to hear it best

I am visiting a fellow on the weekend with a stack of 6 martin audio 115 front loaded horn bass bins who is going to set them up for me in his shop.  They are supposed to have a stable usable range from 50 to 250 hz.  I don't know if its the right move for me but he seems willing to give me some time to play with them.  Hopefully I can gain a feel for if a mid cabinet might work for me.  On the larger top cabinet idea I wont rule it out completely, I guess I just haven't come across the right ones yet.... Which doesn't say much as we don't have access to a ton of varied gear to experience here.  A local company did manufacture a dual 15 or 18 inch reflex top with quality drivers and ample power.   Spent a bunch of time in front of those over quite a few festivals but again they didn't impress.... but they were reflex so I always find them loose and not well controlled..  Company was www.pksound.ca they make pretty decent stuff but have since moved primarily into line array stuff. 

Could I ask, if you were to build a top with psytrance in mind, how would you approach it.  Reflex, band pass, horn?  I feel horn loaded in my experience gives a better feel of control and precision to sound but its also a more of a in your face sound so can get tiring if listened to for a long time.   Like I mentioned before, the few times I did experience great sounding psytrance was with horn loaded systems using 2 way bass, subs for 23-60 ish, mid bass 60 to 300 or so and mid/highs for the rest.    

For sure, a couple random youtube finds here.    Checked my local classifies last night and a guy has 6 original martin 115 midbass horns for sale about an hour from my place.   Meeting him Saturday to give them a listen.  Not sure if they are what I'm looking for but could be interesting

This is some deeper aussie type stuff.  Something like this can be really hard for a system to pull off well. There is a ton of sub content but the punch of that chugging bass and kick goes quite high up the spectrum as well.  Beyond the kick and sub the melodic content sits pretty far back in the signal. To get it all sounding clear and powerful yet still be able to hear the melodies and atmospheres in pretty challenging.  When done well,  its a bass workout just as satisfying as any bass driven music genre.

Middle of the road stuff.   Done properly the kick isn't the most impactful sound, its the quick repeating bass notes, perhaps 3 or 4 between each kick drum.  The bass line should be the most prominent weight felt from the system

some faster stuff.  Note the bass notes are still fast but a bit more funky and varied.  If a system can really make those notes clean powerful and defined, its really a treat. 

Thanks a ton for sharing some thoughts guys.

SME.  Spl is not a big priority for me.  I prefer thick warm sound that I can feel but at a level that people can stand in front of it all day without fatigue.  Thank you for your interesting idea with the center channel, its something I am going to ponder carefully.  I have always preferred a center sub array between left and right channels as it seems to be the most reliable way to get a good physical feel to the music at the moderate spl levels I prefer.  If I do end up going with a 2 way bass system I will first experiment with subs and midbass cabinets in the middle with my tops left and right to see how that plays out.  I totally understand the added complexity as far as timing/phase goes but I think its a challenge I am up for.   The delayed left right signals is something I had not thought about before, but it will be something I will experiment with... thanks for the idea.

Josh. I wouldn't argue at all that larger top cabinets would be far and away the easier way to go about this.  It would without doubt save me pack space, money and headaches.   I currently run 6 - 3-way cabinets with 15" LF 6" mid and 1" cd over my 8 18" subs.  They create an acceptable amount of kick definition for most purposes.... I guess im just in the hunt for something special.   While I'm sure there is a combination out there that can pull it off, I have yet to hear a sub/top combination really pull off psytrance well.  The few times I have been in audio heaven as far as that midbass power and precision is concerned has been on turbo and funktion1 systems.  Those systems just seem to be able to deliver that physical experience in a special way for that particular type of music. With that said I'm not a huge fan of the sound top to bottom, I find f1's in particular butcher vocals and the whole mid high range sounds perhaps a bit nasal?  We did hire a nice turbo system for a burningman stage many years ago that I figured was just sublime.

I would really love to hear the skhorn, it does sound like a magical beast.  Its hard for me to comprehend a sub being able to pull off those kind of lows while still being able to keep kicks and upper bass tight and dynamic. I have never been impressed with double 18 bins, especially for psytrance. They just sound too loose and uncontrolled, sometimes great for drawn out slower basslines but for anything fast they just have never impressed me.  It sounds like the skhorn isn't anything like that, I hope to hear it someday.  You really should cook up a single version of it, I for one would be all over it.  I had a tough enough time even considering the othorn as a tolerable size.  If I gathered this correctly, the 21SW152 is supposed to be a good fit?  Perhaps if and when you release a single I can swap mine out of the othorns and give it a go

Thanks for your thoughts on the midbass cab, I know its a bit of a weird way to go about a problem but for my application it just seems to be the best approach.   Ill keep digging and researching the flh designs, they seem to be a step up from some of the bph options out there.  Believe it or not, us psy heads are pretty fussy about good sound.

Cheers

Hey everyone.  Josh, thank you for all of your contributions to the diy audio community.  Its been a pretty amazing adventure reading up on modern audio tech over the last view weeks researching a replacement for my RCF 4 pro sound system.  We host a festival in Canada 10 years running. Music styles range from live music, house, techno, most modern bass music sounds as well as psytrance.  My Rcf system is getting long in the tooth so its shifting duties to our second stage so we are looking to construct a new main stage system. 

Ive been involved in throwing psytrance shows pushing 20 years now so one my first priorities for the build is to have ample midbass power to nail that faster bassline and kick sound.  This usually involves using a cabinet capable of tight and precise bass reproduction in the 60 to 180hz or so range.  Options I am looking at are the es18bph, Martin 215mk3, or maybe the mkb-230.   Cabinets such as this are lacking the ability to reach deep enough to cover much of the bass music material we also book at our shows so after long consideration we have decided to build a sub section consisting of Othorns.   I've seen quite a few examples of crews doing similar things, othorns under es18's seems to the most common that I have come across. Regardless of my poor music taste (psytrance) I take quality of sound seriously and am hoping to create the most musical combination possible.

Can anyone comment on a mid cabinet that would best compliment the othorn subs?  Any thoughts or comments welcome, even alternative suggestions if you think there may be a better way to achieve my goals of building a system both able to handle the fast paced mid punch of psy, yet sound great with everything else from bass music to live.  I have taken a close look at the skhorn and while it does look amazing would complicate our transportation situation as well as load in's to some of the indoor venues we use.  Dance floors from 100 to 300 people, thinking 4 othorns under 4 mid cabinets. Mid/highs likely to be 4 RCF 4pro4001's until funds are available to upgrade after this season. Processed with dbx driverack.  

Many thanks to anyone willing to share their thoughts