EndersShadow

58 minutes ago, lilmike said:

Try em in Hornresp. Nothing special, just a simple floor-to-ceiling single fold. Tune comes in about 22 Hz. 

Epically good.

Big coil means it soaks up the power and has a nice low inductance too. 

The temptation is strong with these... Honestly, If I did not have 4 of the 18" 9601s, these would already be in my theater. 

Lol can’t do that (or I totally would lol).   Was looking at a fridge sized area (84 W x 31 H x 26 D) broken into two ported boxes that replace my entertainment center (And my components would be broken into two new tower sections on either side).....

Please god someone buy those 9601s......

The amount of WinISD sims I have for them in large ported low tuned boxes, not counting scheming to make a Skram or Skhorn fit in my 16x18 FAMILY ROOM HT are causing my head to hurt.

And that’s ignoring determining what to sell to fund the purchase and getting them into the house without being murdered in my sleep by having them placed over my head in lieu of a pillow...

Please someone take the temptation away lol...

Looks like double the fun....... or do we have two different versions?

Thanks @maxmercy, I will need to read up on that tonight and see whats up.  If it helps me identify if I'm clipping I'm all for it.  Like I said, I know I need to ensure my signal chain is setup appropriately so I'm getting all I can out of these drivers, while also ensuring I dont blow them.

One update is that I made some small tweaks to things shown below

• Audio/Volume: Scale - 0-98* | Limit: 70 (previously 80)
  • *My options for the scale are -79.5db -18db OR 0-98 (which is what I have mine at)
• Speakers/Crossovers: Front: 60hz (previously 80)
• Speakers/Bass: Subwoofer Mode: LFE | LFP for LFE: 80hz
• Speakers/Level: Subwoofer: +4.0 (previously -2.0)
• Audio/Subwoofer Level Adjust: OFF (previously +6.5db)

Doubt this is going to change much, but haven't had time to measure anymore and wont for the forseeable future.

PS all you folks have got me looking at alternative solutions as well such as employing some 21" drivers in my nearfield boxes and swapping out the 12" drivers slated for my DO Sonotubes (still a WIP) with some local FI Audio 15's lol.....

10 hours ago, More said:

Finally home again.  Had a great week.

I'll have more stuff tested this weekend.

I'm surprised I still have these amps. 

Any idea why?  Prices?

 

Not sure this forum has the amount of traffic as others (like AVS), plus most guys here probably have their amp situation covered already.....

I'd post them individually on AVS and you might get more traction there.

4 hours ago, SME said:

Did they improve the level monitoring feature in the GUI?  On my old MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced and OpenDRC-AN, IIRC, the displayed levels were short-term averages.  (IIRC on the 2x4 it wasn't even RMS average.)  This would tend to miss momentary high output transients in movies that might clip the output.  If it's indicating short-term average then "riding the ragged edge" means you might actually be clipping a lot.

No idea if they improved the monitoring features, just know they are there and can help you judge if your clipping the input. 

What I meant by that was when playing movies only the parts meant to be REALLY loud approached or hit the -0db point on the input graph.  I didnt hit it on the output graph at all, although I noticed when I got close I was only at the third of 5 lights on the Crowns.  In general on the MiniDSP input graph I was well below 0 with most stuff (like hovering around -10, -12).  I'm fine if it hits 0db once in a while, but it wasnt steady in like the -2, -3, etc except again for the times that it should be.

I also didnt repost last night, but I rewatched the first 45 minutes of Godzilla and it did the same thing.  Most content was in the green/yellow area of the graph, with occasional super loud sections (like godzilla's fire breath, or footsteps) approaching between -3 or 0 on the graph.

I also threw on some music (Lindsey Stirling Artemis, Tool Fear Inoculum and the signal was coasting through all of that with ease as well (though music content doesnt normally dig below say 25hz lol)

Now I was likely clipping the first time I watched the movie even after reducing the boost (in the MiniDSP) because I had the subwoofer level at +6.5db on the Denon.  I adjusted that setting in the Denon down 1.5 to just +5.0db prior to doing any testing/listening last night.  That means that when watching the movie last night all parts that were approaching clipping (at the new setting of +5.0db) on the input graph likely were well past it initially at the old setting of +6.5.

4 hours ago, SME said:

Here's one experiment you can try.  Play a movie clip and note the highest level that pops up.  Maybe play that part a couple times to make sure you get the same number.  Then, add 3 dB headroom to the MiniDSP output by decreasing the output gain -3 dB and increasing the amp gain +3 dB.  This should give the same average volume, but you'll have 3 dB more headroom.  Now play the movie clip again and see if the highest level numbers you get are -3 dB compared to before or if they are higher.  If they are higher, then you were probably clipping and may still be clipping.

Sorry to make this a chore.  It makes a big difference for sound quality to not clip or distort transients all the time.  Depending on circumstances, this may not be nearly as obvious as with speakers because the sub output drops a lot in the high frequencies, meaning the clipping won't sound as harsh.  IMO gain structure problems and internal clipping are also a very common problem in HT systems if they get turned up.

While it may be a chore, you are correct, the payout is worth the effort.  One of the reason I am moving to 12 12's is to have a lot of cone area to hopefully allow me to play loud without having to stress.move the drivers tons (except for special occasions).  I also am trying to be very conscious about not clipping because I want as clean a sound as I can get (understanding I'm already asking more from these drivers below 30hz than they'd really like to do).

I am also not one to say I'm an expert at gain structure, but I want to make sure I get it right, again because I want to get the best sound I can out of what I have.  If I had my druthers I'd build 2 really large ported LTT's and be done, but thats not a viable option for me.

Two questions (sorry if they are remedial ones):

• When you say "decrease the output gain -3db"..... where? In the MiniDSP input gain? output gain?
• How would I know how much to bump up the volume on the amps to increase 3db? Run a sweep at the beginning, reduce the input, increase gain until the sweep with the changes matches the original one?
  • I also dont know if I have 3db left on the amp to give lol, I think I'm maybe 4-5 clicks below max on my Crowns full volume, which is likely NOT going to be a 3db increase

Ok.  Ran threw some demo clips* and I’m at the ragged edge on the MinDSP input at 70 (which is above my normal listening volume of 50).  

Im not clipping except in rare really loud circumstances.

Output seems fine as is.

Just to be a bit safe I dialed down the subwoofer adjust from +6.5 to +5.0 so that should help white a bit.

For now I think my gain structure is maximized outside potentially adding a high shelf filter that kicks in around 15hz to help reduce amp and driver strain since it seems they are close to out of gas there....

*Clips were:

Intro to Godzilla King of the Monsters - Large footsteps

Captain America Winter Soldier - HeliCarier launch

Olympus has Falledn - C130 attack (when the monument falls I triggered the biggest red light event on my amp so far)

The Polar Express - Train Arrival

I agree with you both.  That said I got the balanced 2 x 4 which I think has 4 VRMS in and out (still not a ton but better than the stock 2x4).

I know the amp lights on my Crown XLS2000s aren’t hitting red so there’s that but I do plan to spend some time doing some real world content viewing (tomorrow while wife and oldest are at a JoJo Siwa concert lol) while looking at the input and output of the MiniDSP.

The red lights on the Crown are indicators of the input signal correct? So if they aren’t red lighting 24/7 and normally are barely 1/2 way at least the AMP isn’t clipping (but clipping could still be occurring at the MiniDSP input or AVR output) correct? The knobs on the Crowns are simply the gain and they are 4-5 clicks below max.

I lack the skills and tools to verify if clipping is happening inside the AVR itself lol...

6 hours ago, SME said:

?Something else to look at is to make certain your gain staging is optimized between AVR/processor, MiniDSP, and sub amps.  It's possible that your "MV 70" sweeps are clipping the signal before it even reaches the amp.

Yes I need to go back into the MiniDSP and sweep at 70 and look at the INPUT levels and output levels to make sure I’m not clipping.

im fairly certain I’m not clipping the output (as I’d be red lighting the lights on the amp and I’m not), but I could very much be clipping the input.

I think I tested that much earlier and determined I wasn’t both by looking at sweeps and also by monitoring it while playing real world content like the EOT intro, EndersGame clips and a few others know to contain lots of UKF/Bass content....

But I’m betting I did that at 50 not 70 as I had a hard limit set at 60 (so kids can’t crank it on accident), and increased that to 80 very recently.

You are also right as what I really want to do is figure out where my limit is on this configuration so I can be under or at it.  If I remove the boosts I will lose out a massive portion of the low end I have now.  I’ve attached a sweep before XT32 and any REW filters are installed (of the subs just as they sit.  You will notice they run out of gas fast stock without the low shelf filter and the other boost is just there so they’re isn’t a dip when that low shelf filter starts.

*The darker line is the response.  The green line is the EQd response and you can ignore the red circle, it was added to show the first section I was EQing lol...

I’m not there yet but working towards it lol.  I’ve got some buddy’s in Chicago that I’m going to bribe/beg/pay to come down once all my subs are done and help me dial them in but since I am still not totally setup I’m flying solo right now.

3 hours ago, SME said:

I see you're sweeping on "6: Display Audio Output 1 4".  Is that just a single channel?  Is it LFE?  Or something else like center?

Channel 4 is the subwoofer channel.  Here is the default channel mapping per MiniDSP

Here is a typical mapping of HDMI channel numbers:

• Channel 1: Front Left
• Channel 2: Front Right
• Channel 3: Center
• Channel 4: Subwoofer
• Channel 5: Surround Left
• Channel 6: Surround Right
• Channel 7: Surround Back Left
• Channel 8: Surround Back Right

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-measurements/206-umik-1-asio4all#channels

1 hour ago, SME said:

Let me ask again, a bit different:

what kind of REW sweep is this?  Which channels and what level in dBFS?  If this is, say, "-10 dBFS" on left and right channels only, that's gonna be a lot lower in level than what a movie can do at the same MV.

Lets see if I can answer this is any sort of smart way lol. I think I know what your getting at, but I'm going to give you all the data points on everything anyway just to cover my bases.

Here are the settings in my Denon X4100

• Audio/Volume: Scale - 0-98* | Limit: 80
  • *My options for the scale are -79.5db -18db OR 0-98 (which is what I have mine at)
• Speakers/Crossovers: Front: 80hz
• Speakers/Bass: Subwoofer Mode: LFE | LFP for LFE: 80hz
• Speakers/Level: Subwoofer: -2.0
• Audio/Subwoofer Level Adjust: +6.5db

 Here are the REW settings:

Each REW sweeps was run with those settings (for good or bad), the ONLY diff was the volume change from 50 (out of 98) to 70 (out of 98)

44 minutes ago, SME said:

It looks like the amp and/or driver is completely out of gas below 16 Hz or so with the sweep at volume 70.  What volume do you normally listen at and what level (dBFS) was the sweep at?  You don't seem to be getting much room gain at all and may want to dial back the bottom-end boost a fair bit more to clean up the sound and avoid stressing the driver.

Normal listening is about 50 on the volume knob (so the lower sweep).

70 on then volume was a “Home alone with no kids/wife watching a good movie loud”.

You are correct about the room gain, not getting much, but with a massive open floor plan with only one corner that’s expected.

I did figure the amps were out of gas which I kinda expected with 2 bridged Crown XLS2000s on a single 20amp dedicated circuit.  And I’m adding two more amps to it so we will see how much worse it gets with those added.

I don’t know if I can dial the boost back without making the response worse (rolloff starting in the early 30hz range), so we will see...

I do know that even with my CRAZY boost earlier as long as the volume was kept around 50 it was safe for use, and had low distortion, same with the reduced PEQ at 50 on the volume knob.  I will try to post some of those distortion graphs for comparison later, but my computer is old and wont run more than one program at the same time and I've got to get my kido up for school :).

Got a second, ok here we go.

Distortion on the 50 volume sweep with reduced PEQ

SPL Difference between the 50 and 70 volume

And for giggles here is the distortion on my massively boosted PEQ sweeps (also at 50 on volume)

Here is what that boosted PEQ looks like in the MiniDSP

So looking at that as long as I keep the volume in check a bit more I can run with larger boosts, which was what I was planning on.  

I'm buying a MiniDSP wireless adapter so I can load in and adjust things on the fly easier, which means I can dial up the boost when doing my normal thing, and then dial it back when its just me and I can go NUTS.....

Got a few minutes to redo my REW w the reduced PEQ filters.  I measured at 50 volume and 70 for giggles.

Lots more rolloff below 20hz compared to the boosted one but for now I’m ok with that.

Once the sonotubes come in perhaps room gain will help.

Original v Reduced PEQ

50 v 70 on the volume.  On this the rolloff below 20hz seems much more pronounced.  Not sure why this is.  I can tell you that things shake all over the house with the 70 volume lol...

And lastly here is a THD plot from my 70 volume measurements.  I think @Ricci asked for something like this at one point in this thread. Hopefully it shows what you want Ricci, if not, let me know and I can repost.

19 hours ago, More said:

I'm taking off for the weekend to hang out with some friends.  I'll be back Tuesday.

.......but he loves LOUD dubstep.

Enjoy!

and he sounds like my kinda guy lol...

Cant take the arrays off your hands, but I'd love to see some pictures (and I do know some audio nuts in the PA area)......

1 hour ago, More said:

I started testing the powered mixers.  

I need to get them out of my way so I can start tackling the mountain of guitar amps. 

 

 

I heard tell you are going to be attempting to daisy chain them together to reinvent the "Wall of Sound"...... 😂

4 hours ago, More said:

I think you're selling yourself a bit short.   12x 12's is about the same Sd as 3x 24's.   But only the same Vd as 1x 24.     You do realize you just said "only running 12x 12's" , right?  LMAO  this place will warp you..

Good to know..... but when your benchmark are things like "The Savoy" theater, or Mike (eng-399 on AVS) with 4 21's in 20cf boxes tuned low with another 6 15's nearfield tuned low...... its hard to think 12 12's is enough lol.....

Although honestly...... I was warped before experiencing ANY of that lol.......

So I played Godzilla King of the Monsters tonight....

The bass SCARED me with how hard it was hitting so I made an executive decision.

I went from this

To this

Was still stupid loud with lots of impact, but not red lighting the Crowns as bad.  Also by reducing the boost I was likely drastically reducing the distortion as these drivers aren’t really meant to dig this low...in addition to reducing driver stress....

I will do some REW later so I can see how much I lost below 20hz

This is what the Original settings provided (the tan line)

*Note* This was at a volume of 50 on the AVR.  Not sure what SPL that equates to....  I was listening to Godzilla at 70.... so I’m sure it was significantly higher SPL....

@dgage

Id have the same problem.

If t’s movie night, the goal is watching the movie as a group.

you can talk before or after but NOT DURING!

I’ve cranked my setup before and then left it running and walked around the outside of the house to see what you can (or can’t) hear.  Like you house is sealed decently, and I’m only running 12 12s so it’s not as much surface area as a couple 24s, nor does it get as much SPL as a pair of 24s.

Once I get things dialed in I may invite @Ricci up to Indy to get his opinion...

36 minutes ago, More said:

I'm testing out an Escort 5000 right now.  Everything works except for the RCA input.  I think I need to re-flow one bad solder joint and that should work too.  If i'm right, it will be up here later today.  You could have the coolest suitcase on the block.  

LOL, nah, I'm not much for socializing on my block lol....

I just try to keep the bass low enough they dont know where its coming from, while also ensuring my walls flex inside the house....

Those things look pretty cool!  I can see why you’d want one lol!

My modded one has a step down converter so it can use a 12v Noctua fan.

Fan is running full tilt but much quieter.

if needed I can adjust it lower but I don’t find running it at 12v to have anywhere near a loud fan sound so I left it alone.

It ran 4 of my JBL 1214s with ease for about a year.

Its running my Mission 602 bookies in my garage right now and will eventually run a sub there instead...

Nice EP4000s!  Got one of those myself I modded the fan on

Look forward to seeing the treasure trove

Looking forward to your testing on this beast.....

I've always been shocked at the performance of these drivers.

Wish I could fit 21's or 24's in my space (without needing a divorce lawyer, or contractor to build a bump out for my family room)