minnjd

That looks like a graph from a 90's movie 

Definitely has some loud 30Hz stuff but it looks heavily filtered under that.....

To the best of my knowledge SpecLab can't process multichannel WAVs, it can only do mono.  That's why we do the mixdowns

That's interesting, i would of thought that down mixing especially to mono would pretty much ruin the audio file and not give an accurate result. why would it not do that?

Mixing WAV's together doesn't do anything to the quality of the audio (unless you change bit rates or sampling frequencies).  We have to do that mixing in order to create the PvA graphs and level numbers when we graph movies.  You can run individual channels through SpecLab if you want to see what's going on in them but in order to capture the overall bass in a track you need to mix them down to a single file.

I can't seem to add the dts file, what program do you use to convert it into a wav file? Sorry I should of asked this from the beginning.

I use eac3to.  It'll convert Dolby and DTS files to multiple WAV files (one for each channel).  Then those files are mixed down to a mono WAV in Audacity.

in the 'file' menu there's an entry for 'audio file and stream analysis'.  In that menu select 'analyze audio file (without DSP)'.  That'll take you to a menu where you can select the audio file and set the FFT lengths.

I can't speak for anybody else but I rip the movies to my computer and then use SpecLab to directly read the digital audio file.  I had a lot of issues when I tried to run things through my sound card as well so I quit doing it.

Quick n dirty Deadpool:

111.3 dB level

29.58 dB dynamics

18Hz extension

Clipping is noticeable in the waveforms, especially in the center channel.  Not sure how noticeable it is yet.  Doesn't appear near as bad as The Force Awakens, so far at least.

Better details and full poll after I get a chance to watch it.......

Picked up Deadpool today.  Should have numbers up in a day or so but will take longer to do a poll since I need to watch it first

Haven't bought the movie yet but I should have it soon.

Blu-Ray.com is useless for review on audio, other than for image quality and checking Blu-Ray releases they have no clue about bass or charts. the only Way to know is by getting graphs showing the true story like we do  from these awesome contributors. Funny thing you should see their audio setup, its nice with some powerful hardware, but my god they cant be serious about bass review on some films... are they paid off?!.

 

This what the films are reviewed on.

 

The mains and center look pretty impressive and capable of moving some air.  By comparison that sub looks a bit anemic.  I'll bet it's loud, but probably not too deep.

Maybe a touch more low content, but yeah, nothing to write home about.  Nice to see Blu-Ray.com's hyperbole is still alive and well.

I really like their reviews for the most part but they constantly overdo it when it comes to bass.  Although we have to leave it to High Def Digest for this "Spectre" nugget:

If you don't have a good subwoofer in your home theater, get yourself out and buy one right now. [Fair warning: Your spouse and neighbors may object.] The bass on this disc is insane. My sensory memory of the opening scene reverberated through my bones a full day after watching it – and that was just from the throbbing music. When the explosions hit… well, just make sure you secure anything in your home that might rattle or fall, because your whole house is going to shake.

Yeah, not so much.

I actually watched The Fifth Element with the new Atmos track yesterday and it does indeed have some nice bass.

I've never heard it on a proper system before and I certainly don't have nearly as big a system as some others here but I'm pretty sure it has a lot more bass than the mix that was already measured here.

I recently watched a bunch of movies of similar age (Godzilla, Armageddon, Dante's Peak) and none of those had as much bass as The Fifth Element. The bass also sounded more "modern" than on the other movies.

It definitely has some missed opportunities (the biggest explosion sounded quite unimpressive) but some scenes (like the second biggest explosion) really rattled my room.

Sure, the blu-ray.com review is heavily exaggerated but I don't think they use particularly sophisticated systems, since they even attested great bass to 2012 and The Hobbit (and Sucker Punch for that matter).

Yeah they are very subjective over there with audio reviews.  I still can't believe that anybody in their right mind would find good bass in 2012 unless you had an 8 inch sub cranked 10dB over normal in a bedroom.

No joke.  I've seen reviews that state "amazing low frequency effects", and "Dynamic range is robust -- especially low bass, which can really deliver a wallop."

The recent 4k release also has quite a bit of praise for low end, although that disc features a new Atmos remix so they may indeed have boosted the bass levels for that one.  That being said, I still have a hard time believing "Bass was so demonstrative I even turned down the subs by a few dBs because I was literally rattling the walls of my living room."

Back when the Fifth Element was released soundtracks were still mastered to analog magnetic tape using analog mixing boards, and even heavy hitters like Saving Private Ryan didn't go under 30Hz.  So unless they did some serious low end processing or a full on, from scratch, new mix I doubt it has any more ULF than the original Blu-Ray (which is to say none).

JW was decent for slam bass but definitely not five star.  The Force Awakens cleans its clock easily and it's not gonna be a five'er either.

Oh well, some reviewers still say the Fifth Element has 'some of the deepest bass they've ever heard'.

That is kind of odd.  Looks like their graph has more midbass than the one here.  Do they say how they capture their PvA's?

Criterion is all about presenting their movies in their original release format.  Given the type of movies they do, mono is pretty common.  While it might annoy surround sound enthusiasts, I really respect Criterion's approach and wish more studios would do the same.  Or at the very least provide original mixes and home mixes side by side.  Hell even Disney did that for a while (on the Lion King and Aladdin).

As far as TFA goes you'll enjoy it.  It does clip and the bass is filtered (slightly), but it does sound pretty good overall.  Definitely the most aggressive Star Wars soundtrack yet. 

I understand.  I guess I just also don't like the loudness war either.  That seems to affect how movies sound in the home as well.  What's interesting is that I have one BR that they put the theater version of the audio and a home version of a DTS-MA soundtrack on the disk.  So the user can choose which one to play.  It's too bad more movies can't do that.  It might make a difference.  I watched it with the home mix and it sounded really good.  I have not watched the theater mix yet.  I guess the real test would be to play both back to back to see if anybody could hear a difference.  The movie BTW is the Criterion release of "The Game".

https://www.criterion.com/films/28058-the-game

As I said, one is the original theatrical release and the other was optimized for HT viewing and was supervised by the person who 

did the sound on the film.  I just thought that was interesting.  I know mixers do a lot of work but it's too bad that what I described above can't be incorporated 

into the workflow   .

I have this disc as well.  I sampled the two soundtracks and they are quite a bit different, especially in overall tone.  The home track is less dynamic but also has the bass frequencies boosted, so they are audible at lower volumes.  The theatrical track had to be turned up a lot higher for that, but then the louder parts were almost deafening.  Personally I prefer the home mix.

I agree though that Criterion did the right thing by giving users the option and trusting us to pick the right one.  Unfortunately, Criterion is pretty abnormal in this regard.....

OK.  I understand that.  But instead of willfully filtering out those frequencies in the track itself, isn't it possible to have a setup where the soundtrack and LFE channel are full range and reach their potential, but then have the actual movie theaters implement their 30hz filter on that track to make it louder but when it is brought to the home that won't happen since it was never filtered to begin with.  I realize that won't happen because it would too much work for each theater.  And having two mixes, one for the theater and one for the home remastered to lower that peak is probably a bit too much to ask also.  But if something works like all the 5 star films. and even 4.75 films here, it would be great if there was a template that could be used to carry those settings to other movies.

 

You know, that's something that I never really paid attention to.  I just took a look at a number of charts here and the majority of them, even some of the 5 star ones, have a peak at 30-40hz.  But I guess those movies have other aspects that make them 5 stars.  I still can't wait to watch this over the weekend though.  I still think it will sound nice in my room.

You hit the nail on the head.  Most theaters aren't run by technical people and a lot of them already have plenty of problems just trying to reach a decent presentation standard.

Many movies these days are remixed to some extent for the home environment.  The dynamic range is often reduced and the track is EQ'ed for smaller rooms and lower volumes.  I suppose it's possible they could remove the 30Hz filters when they do this but that would likely entail more remixing work than it's worth to them.  Much as it sucks to hear, ULF capable systems are few and far between in the grand scheme of things and for the most part mixers don't pay any attention to it.

Even 5 star movies were originally mixed for the theater, so for the most part they will have 30 Hz peaks and some kind of falloff afterwards.  The good ones minimize that slope.  Given the demand for MOAR BASS it's getting less likely to see truly unfiltered mixes, but they are out there.

Yep, Nuttall 4B.

I got a slightly different PvA.  What were your FFT/window settings?  The 1Hz bump hits nearly -20 on my graph.  Overall, the graphs are very similar.  Lots of 15-50Hz to be had here.

 

JSS

1024 with a 48 decimation.  10ms scroll rate.

Does this seem to be the norm now.  A nice response to just before 30hz.  Then a ramp and peak right at 30hz then it just goes down from there.  Not every movie, but a lot of movies seem to employ that.  Or am I wrong.  And if I am not wrong, why did this trend start.  I hope to test it in my system pretty soon.

P.S

Thanks to everyone who does all these charts and explains what they mean  .

Many movies have this curve due to the environment they are originally mixed for.  Most commercial theaters don't go much below 30Hz with their subs, and virtually none can go below 20Hz with any authority.  This means that any content down there is inaudible to the average movie goer.  Being that movies are being filled with louder and louder bass effects, those under 30Hz frequencies are deliberately filtered out in order to gain additional bandwidth that they can then use to really push the 30-40Hz content that theaters can reproduce.

This doesn't always happen though.  The Martian, for instance, doesn't employ any kind of filter on it's bass, hence the mostly flat line from 50Hz down to 1Hz.  That being said, the bass in the Martian is fairly subdued, so it's likely they didn't need the additional headroom that would've been gained by filtering the LFE.

Here's the fixed PvA:

Yes I saw that 1Hz bump but I ignored it because it is a cheat and almost looked like stray signal noise when it happens.  I'll adjust the numbers for the poll.

So far, I like what I am seeing.  I am anxious to hear it my own system.  But one thing has me confused

 

Above you say

" Not the loudest or deepest but very impactful and dynamic.  And no clipping!"

Then you say

So I'll start this off by saying there's good evidence this soundtrack is brick walled at -3dB, leading to a track that is paradoxically both lower in volume and riddled with clipped wave forms.  I'll take a close look at the waveforms this evening.

 

Not sure what brick walled at -3db means (filtered?).  But then you say it's has a lot of clipped wave forms.  So does that mean that when you just listened to it, you could not tell that it had clipping and that's why you said no clipping?  And you, plus other people said it sounded great.  But the measurements show it does have clipping but it does not affect the overall sound track in a negative way?  Is that what you are saying.  So that must mean that in the end, regardless of the clipping, the audio guys did a really good job of not having it be a bad thing for the movie.  Plus I figured that 13hz would probably be the ultimate low end.  

I quickly glanced over the waveforms in Audacity at 11PM before going to bed.  That program has a setting where it highlights any signal that clips above 0 dB.  Looking at TFA I didn't see any of those highlights, so I believed there was no clipping.  Maxmercy mentioned that he had done some closer examining of the actual wave forms and noticed all kinds of flat tops that indicate a brickwall limiter was being used, but set to -3dB.  So basically nothing made it through that was louder than that and it can cause the same effect as hard clipping (where the signal goes over 0dB), just at a lower volume.  I haven't had a chance to confirm his findings yet but Max is a pro at this stuff so he's likely correct, and that's why I said there was good evidence.

Long story short the track does not hard clip due to it's low volume, but it may have clipped waveforms regardless.

That being said no, I didn't find the clipping to be objectionable outside of the Starkiller base weapon firing.  That one did sound kinda bad.

As far as the 13Hz extension, that is the point where the bass levels are -10dB down from wherever the 'peak' frequency is.  It's not however the lowest frequency contained in the sound track.  TFA has content all the way down to 1Hz but even Bossobass Dave likely wouldn't be able to do much with it due to it's low intensity compared to the stuff higher in the spectrum.

Sorry for the confusion.  The lesson learned is that I shouldn't try to bang these reviews out right before bed on a weeknight

Thanks for the info. Guess we will see what the waveforms and PvA show. I should get a chance to watch it this weekend.

The PvA shows a peak around 30Hz and a gradual slope down from there.  The movie is definitely filtered, but not quite as dramatically as Spectre or ST:ID.  I had run it but it didn't upload properly to the image hosting site so I wasn't able to link it in and I can't re-upload it until this evening.