Bossobass Dave

-28dB is in reference to the maximum signal possible: all 8 channels with a time coherent 0dBFS signal, adding up to 128dB. So -28dB is still 100dB at the listening position at that single frequency. I use a 2 second FFT in order to have 1/2Hz resolution while not losing transients as much as higher resolutions, and use zero offset. Using offset makes everything look hotter than it actually is, and the higher res the FFT, the larger the time smear.....it's a preference.

 

Our graphs match in relative level for each freq. I use a different maximum so that I never clip, making things look lower in level, but the PvA shows the real deal for each scene... Compared to WotW, TIH and HTTYD, FOTR has less <20Hz content. It is still a powerful soundtrack. The ranking system here means there is little difference between a half star; a 4.25 and 4.75 Star film may both sound just as impactful, with the subtle differences separating them. All ranking systems have quirks, but I think this one is pretty good at capturing great LF content more often than not.

 

JSS

I understand the quirks in the ranking system. I believe that 5 stars is obviously too rough a gauge. A number scale is prob a better system and would show the fine line differences to a decimal fraction of 1. But, that's entirely your call.

I also understand the offset option but I disagree that it makes anything look hotter. The color scale I selected gives around 8dB per color with 18 bars per decade of shading resolution. Changing the offset doesn't affect the levels, it just allows you to use the detail in the selected color scale, which is what the offset option is for.

Your graph of the ring scene, for example, shows blue, green yellow and a small portion of red, whereas mine shows blue to a portion of purple. That translates to around 50 bars of shading in your graph vs 90 bars in mine, scene-for-scene.

As well, our graphs do not match in relative terms. If I select 8 Hz vs 34 Hz (the hotter blips on your ring scene), You show 8dB difference and I show 3dB difference (approx). If anything, my FR at the LP was higher at 34 Hz than at 8 Hz when I mic'd the scene.

I don't understand some of the nuances of the SpecLab program, but with all of the thousands of debates regarding subwoofer systems design and everything related to that over the years, the nuances of SL is not high on the list for me. I'm a bit burnt out on the subject and have slowly taken a more hands off-observer position recently.

BTW, along those lines, I'm getting set to wipe the Photobucket account. If you're interested in transferring the pics to another location, ping me. Otherwise, the links will be useless.

I don't understand your graphs. 

My experience with this disc is that the low end is not at -28dB with single digits -10dB below that.

Without any sort of calibration method, using comparison to other discs and the same system playback parameters, I just don't conclude that FOTR is a green/yellow soundtrack.

I read it straight off the discs. No AVR, no soundcard. It has content below 10Hz, but at nearly 20dB below the highest single freq peak. The content is there, at a lower level. Gimme timestamps for those caps and I'll graph them.

 

JSS

The first one is when the Balrog is on the bridge and the 2nd is when Frodo puts on the ring near the end. Sorry, I don't have timestamps handy.

As requested:  Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring - Extended DVD Edition DTS-ES 6.1:

 

Level - 4 Stars (112.2dB composite)

Extension - 3 Stars (16Hz)

Dynamics - 5 Stars (29.3dB)

Execution - Will poll

 

Overall - TBD

 

Recommendation - TBD

 

This mix is 3dB hotter, and 2dB more dynamic than the BD Theatrical mix.  It appears to be a better mix overall.  

 

The good news is that the BD Extended Edition Mix is nearly identical to this one, with a very similar PvA.

 

So, the BD and DVD Extended Editions appear to be at least more Dynamic (that could be because more dialogue), and have more Level than the Theatrical BD. 

 

But the extension is identical to the BD Theatrical Release and BD Extended Edition, we seem to remember more extension in our audio memories.

 

I feel no need to do the other DVD Extended Editions since the BD Extended Edition was so close to its DVD Extended Edition counterpart for this film.  

 

EDIT - There is very little clipping in this mix.  What there is, only hits 0dBFS for one or two samples, then comes back down.  Very well executed.

 

 

JSS

Yeah, something not right here. Here are just 2 caps of LOTR:FOTR EE

Def getting way below 16 Hz on playback.

 

 

Side note, does anyone know how to bookmark so it always goes to the last page of the thread?

Good Q. LMK when you get the answer. 

Thanks, Abrams.....thanks. You took what was one of the best soundtracks ever and followed it up with complete garbage.

 

No, seriously.

 

Bra-vo.

 

The correct thing to do is what Metallica did with their horribly clipped offering (Death Magnetic): fix it.

 

Please don't do the same thing to Episode VII.

 

EDIT - The worst part about soundtracks like this is that it will sound WORSE on more accurate speakers....crap speakers will round off the sharp corners more than good ones.

 

 

JSS

My theory is that Abrams got into the session and twirled some knobs.

Everyone believes he can mix better than the engineers. Many years ago, I used to have a bazillion band graphic EQ and love to watch (stoned) visitors dork with it to "make it sound better".

It wasn't connected to the stereo... thank goodness.

In every case where there was a GEQ in the chain (other's stereos), it was just painful to watch (and listen to).

I used to tell them "When the guy who wrote and played the bass line tells you that's how it should sound, sit on your hands and just listen". 

Just an update to the STID measurements.

 

maxmercy has confirmed that there is terrible clipping in STID.  I originally saw enormous clipping in every channel of STID's mix, but then discounted it for really no good reason.  Thanks to maxmercy for catching yet another reason to be disappointed in this movie.

It really is one of the worst soundtracks in its genre, if not THE worst I've heard.

I graph most STs at reference level with very few exceptions being toned back -5dBRL. I started this one at -15dBRL and the wife put her fingers in her ears, so I cut it back further. 

I kept SL scrolling through the whole flick, hoping against hope, to no avail.

After the ship out of water/volcano, I said "It's filtered", and she immediately said "I know... I see it".

My opinion is that we're just gonna have to live with this horseshit when it comes to blockbuster movies. The Loudness Wars are here to stay.

Guess I'll switch to romantic comedies and sell off the subs.

The BR should come with a Victrola and the ST on a 78 RPM hunk of slate in mono that you wind up and try to sync with the picture by pressing the spring release at just the right time.

Glad I rented Star Trek. Nothing worth graphing, not gonna be in my library.

This soundtrack is the poster boy for loudness wars.

Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring - Theatrical BluRay:

 

Level - 3 Stars (109.3dB composite)

Extension - 3 Stars (16Hz)

Dynamics - 4 Stars (27.14dB)

Execution - Will Poll

 

Overall - TBA

 

Recommendation - TBA

 

This film falls into what I call 'nostalgic memory', or 'good old days syndrome'.  For the time, great LFE, much like Iron Man 1.  But when compared to the heavies, not so much.  I may do the DVDs at some point....

 

JSS

I bought the extended editions with appendices of the trilogy. The DTS-ES track is definitely world class sound, IMO. The vocals in the CC are the best I've ever heard and the low end is full range and not lacking in level at reference playback.

If the BR version is hacked, I certainly appreciate the heads up and will save the dough.

NYSM doesn't have much bass, as Abraham confirms, but a nice bit in CH 3:

But, the movie itself is a great bit of entertainment. I liked this one as much as any I've seen this year, maybe best yet. Cast, effects, story, acting, directing, picture... all top notch and loads of fun. Sound is the only bad mark, IMO. The CC when folks are on mic on stage is not the best and surround steering could have been better and, of course, the low end can always be better. 

This forum wouldn't allow me to post Oblivion, so I posted it at AVS.

It's been real guys. 

I believe there's a new kid on the block to rival all of his predecessors...

Oblivion

I'll run this one by the scenes I noted in my first look, but I can just about close my eyes, select any chapter and hit play and it will be low end-loaded.

Abraham, I don't know what's up with your assessment that the ST is low level. This one put a hurtin' on my room and person.

The finale as I heard it:

Bosso

 

Check your PMs.

 

 

JSS

I have checked... nothing there. What's up?

GI Joe: Retaliation

See the next post for measurements. This one is filtered. Looks to be 15 Hz, 2nd order.

Even with that, the extreme low end blip at the end (see the last speclab cap) still got through, so imagine what level it was at before the filter was applied. Also, my system rolls off starting at 4 Hz, and it still shows up all the way down to 2 Hz!! That may have been why they applied a filter to the whole ST?

Overall a pretty boring action yarn for me. The ST is also unremarkable, YMMV.

Dave,

 

What program are you using to generate images which have measurements from various images overlaid? I know it is Mac based but I'm hoping I can find something similar for windows.

I use Omnigraffle. Unfortunately, the graphs are not overlaid. I pop the graphs into Omni, scale them by stretching horizontally and vertically until they are identical, then create a line with enough data points and lay it on a trace and manipulate the data points until the trace is identically mimicked. I then drag the created trace onto the other graph for comparison.

If it sounds tedious, that's because it is. I'm just so familiar with Omni from creating all of the graphics for my business, sites, etc. over the years, that it's just another graphic to me.

Sorry, I know nothing about W apps. You might ping LTD because I've seen him do similar work and I know he uses W.

Guys, the reason I'm thinking the graphs Dave produces are not line level, but, instead, from the mic'd response at his LP, is because he's repeatedly said this:

 

 

With that sort of response, it likely doesn't matter much, but I guess it depends on a variety of other factors.  I thought there was  a pretty decent amount of ULF in AGDTDH based on my digital SL caps direct from the disc.  Reasonable minds can disagree. 

I only post mic'd speclab graphs.

In the past, I've posted comparisons of the mic'd version vs the line level version off the player or AVR, but that has been only to confirm the accuracy of mic'ing my system.

Here are examples, done at different times over the years, of HTTYD, HULK and BHD "Irene!", of which I did a THD analysis from the differences in spectral content:

The differences are so slight as to be irrelevant for general posting, so I use the mic to save the hassle of disconnecting the sub system and running the SW out to the mic interface.

A Good Day to Die Hard is up for voting for Execution and Recommendation.  Vote!

 

JSS

I like Bruce. I like the franchise. Lots of folks don't because of how over-the-top the plots are, but I see lots of jabs at the establishment that they can slip in just because it is so over the top. 

The low end is largely missing in action in this one. The scene where the truck is driven into the building has some ULF but that's it, as it played in my HT. Anyone have caps?

I just got to the bottom of the posting problem. Apparently, Photobucket has placed bandwidth limits on their free accounts. None of my pics are available to view because I've exceeded 10 Gigs of bandwidth!!! Since I only post the PB pics here, that means a LOT of people are viewing them. Currently, I have around 120 megs of photos stored at PB. To exceed their free 10G BW, every single posted pic, 180 of them, would have had to be viewed 83 times this month. That's 15,000 views in July.

I'm open to suggestions as to where we can archive/host the pics. 

Dave, what's your SL offset at?  That movie really has bass which is frequently coming close to 0dB on the scale?!?  Yikes.

It's not the SL offset. I just haven't completely fine-tuned the system since getting rid of the AVR and just using the Oppo flagship player as a pre/pro. So, the calibration is prob a few dB hot. The Oppo volume is 0-100. There's no '0'dB setting, so it depends on how you calibrate as to what 100 actually is. I roughly set 90 to be '0', but haven't had the time to actually confirm that calibration.

EDIT: OK, make that probably 6-8dB hot. 

Remember, I mic at the LP and my system is -3dB @ 4 Hz, so there's prob lower stuff I'm not playing back.

But, I know when there's enough <10 Hz because the floor (which has a resonant freq around 6 Hz) ripples. That 1st cap when the Captain is forced to put the sub within 5M of the tankers screws is truly awesome. The sense of impending disaster is as good as it gets.

I watched that scene in the bedroom system (good to high 20s Hz at nowhere near RL) and then in the theater at approx RL and it's like watching a completely different movie.

Post edited.

EDIT: OK, here we go again with this bullshit forum. The pics showed in the composing, then disappeared when I posted it.

I'll just say Phantom is a good flick with great low end. 

I've been checking in and this forum has been stuck on page 56 (for me) since the 3rd of July. I thought the place was abandoned. 

Later...

I took a look at the 5.1 Oz track.  A little different.  While the peak and RMS numbers are very similar, the PvA looks a little different:

 

Oz 5.1 PvA.jpg

 

JSS

Here ya go...

Would somebody please post a chart/graph of the second shuttle launch (chapter two) from the IMAX: Hubble 3D Blu-ray.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zEc6CGb2YY

Here's the SL cap of that vid (although I wouldn't put money on the accuracy of the transfer).

There's not much there. My son capped this. His SC is -3dB @ right around 4 Hz.

Even that black trace would cause some vented boxes to simply explode. 

 

Man, that sucks about the posting.  Can you try again starting from scratch?

 

JSS

Sorry, yes, indeed either trace would be no bueno for a ported system without proper protection. But, even the lowly Behringers are -3dB @ 5 Hz.

Yes, I did start over, but the point is that the entire process is tedious and time-sucking in the first place and it simply doesn't have to be. I post, then I have to edit the post for ratings, corrections, additions for every movie. There's no reason to have to edit the URL from Photobucket (or any image host) to post an image on this forum. It's just a ridiculous PITA.

OZ The Great And Powerful

 

 

Yep, that blip at 27 Hz I asked about is indeed the highest peak in the movie. I have reason to suspect it's in the CC and is clipped (as are other parts of the ST). As I said, I'll be interested to see what you find.

That gold trace is very nice.....without proper system design, it would cause some Xmech issues with Transformers.....

 

JSS

Remember, the gold trace is the signal that feeds the amp. The black trace is at the amps terminals, the signal that feeds the drivers.

Bosso, 

 

Can you change the PvA for Oz?  Here is the proper one (attached).  I had a 4dB offset from an earlier project in SpecLab.  I found the error when looking at the RMS data Oz, and seeing that it did NOT match the PvA.  I wish SpecLab could do RMS data.....I use WaveShop.

 

This now makes Oz more believable, esp the 27Hz spike.  Instantaneous Peak is 126.7dB, RMS Peak is 119.6dB, and Average is 96.8dB.  I can no longer do LeqZ due to rolloff problems, but I have found that Total RMS (What I use for Average) is very similar, and best of all, repeatable.

 

Final Tally:

 

Level - 114.3dB (Average of Peak, RMS Peak, and Average) - 5 Stars

Extension - 15.8Hz - 3 Stars

Dynamics - 29.9dB - 5 Stars

Execution - 5 Stars

 

Overall - 4.5 Stars

 

Recommendation - BUY.

 

 

JSS

 

Oz PvA.PNG

Yes, I updated the PvA and the Title Block. Dunno what happened, but it just shows the code to me now.

This forum is shit (sorry Kyle & Josh, but I've been a member of many forums and posting on this one just plain sucks).