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Everything posted by maxmercy

  1. Interesting....they are quite different, windows could account for it, but the level differences are what I see as most prominent. I wonder if the DTS-HDMA and ATMOS tracks have different dialnorm settings, or something else. JSS
  2. I have not seen that many films this year, lots of reasons why; I have not had the chance to measure that many either. So far, the PvA for Ad Astra above looks pretty good, but I have to see it. This year I mainly did some BEQ for the films I did buy and see on BluRay, like Avengers:Endgame, Godzilla and Bumblebee, and really looked into the LOTR trilogy as we are nearing the 20th anniversary time on it. It is one of the film trilogies that did not get a decrease in LF from DVD to BluRay, which was very nice. JSS
  3. Godzilla: King of the Monsters - Dolby ATMOS (7.1 channel bed) Level - 5 Stars (112.7dB composite) Extension - 3 Stars (19Hz) Dynamics - 3 Stars (24dB) Execution - TBD Overall - TBD Notes - Loud, but not deep. Very much like Pacific Rim in the rolloff slope. BEQ for this film in the BEQ thread. JSS
  4. I did a BEQ for Godzilla, let me look back and post up stats for it later this week. I have not measured Overlord. JSS
  5. 1) Yes 2) Some receivers let you know how much correction they are applying as the track first plays. On my Denon, once the main movie fires up, it will display the bitstream (DolbyTrueHD/ATMOS), and then for a second or two, Dialnorm -4dB. You can then turn up the film by that amount to have the equivalent presentation. If you run at the high SPL end of things, turning up the MV by that much can make someone a little nervous if they run at the edge of their system's capabilities. 3) Dialnorm in theory has good uses, especially in TV production. I have mainly found it annoying, but that is due to my personal experience (and frustration at times) with it. I just see it for what it is, another bit of metadata DTS and Dolby provided so people could have an option to use it. Few DTS mixes have dialnorm, but they are out there. When I examine the audio in a film, I remove dialnorm so I can see clipping more easily when it happens. Like I said above, I remember playing scenes from Transformers 2 over and over at the same MV level and getting pretty annoyed at the IMAX mix. I had convinced myself it was a dynamics/compression change, when in fact, it was just a turn of the knob. 4-5dB can make a huge difference in perceived impact at the MLP. If you have a clean system, play the Star Trek 2009 warp scenes at your cleanest high SPL level, then turn it down by 4-5dB and feel the difference.... I also remove dialnorm when I BEQ a film. Maybe I need to specify if a mix has dialnorm or not in the BEQ correction so people can set the best MV level. JSS
  6. Here's how they compare with dialnorm accounted for: Now that may account for some bad reviews from ppl listening from AVRs. JSS
  7. I have a possible answer. I went back and looked at the track data for the ATMOS and DTS tracks. The ATMOS track has a -26 setting for dialnorm, which means your AVR will reduce the overall volume by 5dB. I experienced the same thing with Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. The regular edition was DTSHD with no dialnorm applied, the IMAX edition was Dolby TrueHD, with dialnorm applied at -27. When you changed the level to account for dialnorm, the mixes were much more similar. If you listened at your normal level, the IMAX version seemed to lack dynamics. But in truth, it was just being played back 4dB lower. My experience with it: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/755493-master-list-dvd-hd-dvd-blu-ray-movies-bass-thread-waterfalls-123.html#post17394243 keep reading and you'll see echoed many similar sentiments about SM:FFH Great article on dialnorm: https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-dialog-normalization-6-2000.html JSS
  8. The LFE channel is a separately encoded channel, that in cinema will ONLY go to the LFE system. For us at home, BOTH the low freqs from LCRS AND the LFE (played back 10dB hotter) added up go to our subs. So the LFE channel dominates any PvA graph, and the Avg graph is the average of the whole film, so between these two mixes, they will be close. In this case, only around 1dB different. But the Peak graph shows you more in the midbass and upper midbass, sometimes 4-5dB hotter in the DTS track. That is very noticeable when listening. That could be in the LFE, or the LFE summed with the LCRS. The increased midbass is possibly a reason the DTS track is more highly rated. Looking at each individual channel between the two will tell us more. To get down to brass tacks, we can graph specific effects and compare things, but that can get tedious. If you know of specific effect timestamps that have been panned on the ATMOS track compared to DTS, I can compare them. JSS
  9. Bumblebee BEQ (ATMOS 7.1 channel bed) The effects that matter get more weight. Also got rid of ULF noise in LCRS that was prevalent in the mix. Correction: LFE: 1. Gain: -7dB 2. Low Shelf: 10Hz, Slope 1, Gain 6dB 3. Low Shelf: 16Hz, Slope 2, Gain 5dB (3 filters for 15dB total) 4. Low Shelf: 32Hz, Slope 0.5, Gain 2.7dB LCRS: 1. Gain -7dB 2. Low Shelf 22Hz, Slope 1.2, Gain 5.25dB (3 filters for 15.75dB total) 3. low Shelf 44Hz, Slope 0.5, Gain 0.7dB 4. Highpass Filter, 2Hz, 6dB/oct JSS
  10. Godzilla: King of the Monsters: ATMOS 7.1 channel bed Pre-Post: I initially put too much midbass in the first iteration a page back on this thread, and it was awful. It works better this way, with more 'heaviness' where needed. Correction: LFE Channel: 1. Gain -7dB 2. Low Shelf: 18Hz, Slope 2.5, Gain 6.5dB (3 filters for a total of 19.5dB) 3. Low Shelf: 36Hz, Slope 0.5, Gain 5dB LCRS Channels: 1. Gain: -7dB 2. Low Shelf: 16Hz, Slope 2.0, Gain 5dB (3 filters for a total of 15dB) 3. Low Shelf: 32Hz, Slope 0.5, Gain 3dB JSS
  11. Spider-Man: Far From Home DTS vs ATMOS: Cyan is ATMOS peak, Green is DTS Peak. Red is DTS Avg, Green is ATMOS Avg. More midbass overall on the DTS track. That can make a difference that is definitely felt on a capable system. If mixers use a cinema dub stage for one mix, and an 'HT' stage for a nearfield mix, it could account for these differences. The monitoring equipment used can lead to different curves that we measure. But one PvA for a film can be misleading. Unfortunately, the LFE channel DOMINATES any Bass PvA, as it is encoded 10dB hotter than the rest of the channels. This will require looking at the individual channels to see a difference in overall sound quality. Some of the most sonically impressive films have what appear to be a rolled of PvA with full range LCRS and only a rolled off LFE. They sound good. Like the first Iron Man, and the Lord of the Rings FOTR and ROTK. I saw the film in both DTS and ATMOS w/ BEQ. I liked both presentations. But I may BEQ the DTS to see which I like more. More on the individual channels later. It may be telling. JSS
  12. The tracks graph nearly identically, with a slight edge to the DTS track in overall level with an increase in midbass level (>40Hz), only a slight difference in dynamics, but a definite increase in noise, especially ULF noise in the DTS track, all of which may be below the threshold of hearing. If I were to BEQ one of the tracks, it would likely be the ATMOS with it's lower noise floor. I can do a more detailed audio comparo looking at more things + clipping and such when I have time. I thought the film overall was pretty good, with the lately-typical Marvel great visuals, with sound that is decent, but not outstanding. I do not have overhead channels, so I cannot comment on the ATMOS experience, only the 7.1 lossless channel beds. JSS
  13. Avengers:Endgame BEQ (Dolby ATMOS 7.1 Channel Bed) I finally got a chance to screen it with the BEQ, and it is a substantial improvement. Correction: LFE Channel 1. Gain -7dB 2. Low Shelf 17Hz, Slope=1, +6dB 3. Low Shelf 18Hz, Slope=1, +6dB 4. Low Shelf 19Hz, Slope=1, +6dB LCRS Channels 1. Gain -7dB 2. Low Shelf 25Hz, Slope=1.25, +5dB (3 filters for +15dB total) 3. Low Shelf 50Hz, Slope=0.5, +1dB 4. PEQ 30Hz, Q=2.87, +6dB JSS
  14. Spider-Man: Far From Home (Dolby ATMOS 7.1 channel bed) Level: 4 Stars (111.9dB composite) Extension: 2 Stars (21Hz) Dynamics: 5 Stars (29.93dB) Execution: TBD (3-4 IMO) Overall: TBD Notes: 4k disc definitely provided the better track, with 24 bit depth (16 bit for DTS on BD), and slightly higher dynamics. More low level noise noted on the DTS track. Some flat tops, but not as bad as other Marvel films. This track appears to be VERY amenable to BEQ, with a single correction for all channels. Will post up BEQ later. JSS
  15. I did throw out tons of numbers....but lemme make it more manageable. Do you and your spouse like how loud a good cinema is? You can consider that 'reference'. You can think of 10dB steps below that as each one being '1/2 as loud'. When I used to demo my old system, I would tell people that it played at '1/2 the volume' of a good cinema, at 10dB below reference. On my first ever HT, I rarely ever played louder than '1/4 as loud' as a cinema, or 20dB below reference. As for frequency, I tell people that 40-50Hz is most 80s-90s hip-hop. 30Hz is around where some EDM music has their lowest bass, and as low as most good cinemas go; e.g. the low end of the sweep during Ironhide's somersault in the 2007 Transformers movie. 20Hz is something that is rarely achieved in a typical commercial setting, IME. Hopefully this will change with products such as the Meyer VLFC, and it's role in the remix of Apocalypse Now. From the Meyer Sound website: "The system for the VR installation utilizes two different Meyer Sound systems. One is the 1100-LFC low-frequency control element, a staple in touring systems for artists as diverse as Celine Dion, Ed Sheeran and Metallica. The other is the new VLFC very low frequency control element, recently in production but with limited availability, that is bolstering the extreme low end on the current Metallica tour. The VLFC powerfully reproduces sound only in the single octave that bridges the threshold of hearing, between 13 Hz and 30 Hz. “We developed the first versions of the VLFC for NASA to use in vibration testing,” says Meyer. “But we decided to continue development for uses in both cinema and concert applications. We have done extensive double-blind testing here in our own Pearson Theatre. There’s no doubt that people have a different psychological response when we add in or remove that extra octave from 13 to 30 Hz.”" JSS
  16. Return of the King Extended Edition DVD vs BD: Very similar again, with the BD having slightly better dynamics and more clipping noted on the DVD version. DVD Stats: DC offset -0.000001 Min level -0.541110 Max level 0.589154 Pk lev dB -4.60 RMS lev dB -35.16 RMS Pk dB -10.58 RMS Tr dB -190.65 Crest factor 33.76 Flat factor 0.00 Pk count 2 Bit-depth 24/24 Num samples 758M Length s 15794.069 Scale max 1.000000 Window s 0.125 BD Stats: DC offset -0.000000 Min level -0.630937 Max level 0.592822 Pk lev dB -4.00 RMS lev dB -34.94 RMS Pk dB -10.14 RMS Tr dB -468.38 Crest factor 35.23 Flat factor 0.00 Pk count 2 Bit-depth 24/24 Num samples 758M Length s 15797.877 Scale max 1.000000 Window s 0.125 Crest Factors listed on all the stats are simple ratios of RMS vs peak amplitude, they are not in dB. This film has even more full bandwidth LCRS than the previous two films, with significant infrasonics in the back center channel (DVD and BD), and little roll-off in the LCRS save for under 10Hz. Basically, the DVD and BD presentations of these films are essentially the same. No tampering or shelving like we saw in 'Master and Commander'. JSS
  17. The Two Towers Extended Edition DVD vs BD: Again, virtually identical graphs. Clipping in this film is more prominent, especially in the LCR channels, both on DVD and BD, with more clipping in the DVD version. Stats for DVD: DC offset -0.000001 Min level -0.461359 Max level 0.464815 Pk lev dB -6.65 RMS lev dB -37.72 RMS Pk dB -14.70 RMS Tr dB -1.#J Crest factor 35.74 Flat factor 0.00 Pk count 2 Bit-depth 23/24 Num samples 678M Length s 14125.920 Scale max 1.000000 Window s 0.125 Stats for BD: DC offset -0.000000 Min level -0.521735 Max level 0.440078 Pk lev dB -5.65 RMS lev dB -37.58 RMS Pk dB -14.72 RMS Tr dB -143.65 Crest factor 39.49 Flat factor 0.00 Pk count 2 Bit-depth 24/24 Num samples 678M Length s 14131.499 Scale max 1.000000 Window s 0.125 Similar stats with slightly more dynamics on BD, but essentially the same track. This film had some strange filters applied to the LFE channel, and full bandwidth LCR channels, extending even deeper than FOTR. It is BEQ-able, with a possible pre-post: JSS
  18. Boomer, Something you need to ask yourself is how loud will you be listening? Reference Level is what most folks compare their listening SPL to for movies/films. In fact, most receivers have their volume knob in gradations in dBs below a 'zero' level, like -20dB. 'Reference' in cinema size venues means peaks from the LCRS can hit 105dB, and from the LFE channel 115dB. It is impactful and loud (no 'rewind' button in a cinema, you gotta hear it the first time). It is hard to find a good enough cinema that can play at reference without significant strain to both equipment and audience. Most play lower due to patron complaints. My usual listening level is -15dB to -7dB below reference, my max is usually -3 to -4dB below. Getting clean bass down to 20Hz and below at -10dB and louder does take some doing. Getting clean bass at -20dB below reference is MUCH easier. Getting clean (less than 5% THD, preferably lower) <20Hz bass at full reference level is not an easy undertaking in most cases; no matter what people on forums would lead you to believe. Due to most home systems using a .1 channel for bass, most, if not ALL, of the lowest frequencies from the LCRS get sent to the sub as well as the LFE signal. At full reference level, that can mean peaks in the range of 125dB, and as high as 128dB. That takes some serious horsepower. Listen at -10dB, and those numbers get more manageable. At -20dB, and a lot of decent home systems can do it reasonably well, and I really enjoyed films through a -20dB system for a long time, until this one THX trailer distorted my subwoofer over and over again....and then I went down this rabbit-hole you found me in. How low do the subs need to dig to? Do you want to feel things shake in your house and fall off of shelves? Put it this way: Most cinemas do OK to 40Hz. Some good ones do well down to 30Hz. I have yet to be in a cinema that can do 20Hz without significant distortion. To get 'good cinema' sound, you only need 25-30Hz and up. Films contain content much lower at times. But if your goal is a 'cinema at home', you don't need support down to 10Hz (it is fun, though). This is the data-BASS forum, after all... Do your LCRS provide enough SPL that you are only looking for low end support to help them out? This goes back to the 'how loud' question above. At levels above -15dB to -10dB below reference, LCRS will start to sound strained, and listener fatigue can be the end result. A lot of 'slam' and 'impact' come from good fidelity and SPL in the higher frequencies that the LCRS handle, and they need to combine with the sub system to provide a coherent wavefront to get that 'slam'. It is hard to get in a small (home-sized) space. How much space do you have to spare for subs? No one is exempt from Hoffman's Iron Law, especially on a budget. One of the systems I miss went down to 16Hz at -10dB below reference, but it required 36 cubic feet worth of subs. However, it was in a basement, and that made those subs dig deeper than they would have in an open floor plan due to room gain. What is a reasonable budget for you? Answers to these questions will make things easier for the members here to make recommendations for you. I have been able to get 'budget' systems to sound 'decent' and dig pretty low and loud for the cash outlay, if you are willing to sacrifice some cubic footage and make some sawdust. JSS
  19. Prelim BEQ for Fellowship: Lots of under 3Hz noise, hence the extra highpass down low, now I just need the time to screen it properly. These are long films. JSS
  20. Even on a modest home system, I remember wondering what was 'wrong' with the sound of Batman Begins on Bluray. It turns out the BD would default to the lossy soundtrack. I couldn't put my finger on it, just that the lossless track sounded 'airier' and more 'crisp'. Looking at HF content in DVD vs BD I see the following: RED trace is the BD. There is a transition in the 14-15kHz region. Not sure I can hear that, and I'm not sure if this is not just an artifact of lossy compression. Has anyone done any experiments on what AC3/DTS compression does to a spectrogram/FFT? JSS
  21. So by request, the comparison of DVD vs BD LOTR Extended Edition. I remember graphing them a few years ago, but with the LF content thread request, I dug a little deeper. Here is the comparo between DVD and BD Fellowship of the Ring: The DVD has the green Peak and red Avg graph, the BluRay the cyan Peak and the green Avg graph. Stats for the DVD mix: DC offset -0.000046 Min level -0.663155 Max level 0.593566 Pk lev dB -3.57 RMS lev dB -32.86 RMS Pk dB -10.99 RMS Tr dB -119.97 Crest factor 29.15 Flat factor 0.00 Pk count 2 Bit-depth 24/24 Num samples 657M Length s 13686.741 Scale max 1.000000 Window s 0.125 The DVD clips in 12 locations across all 7 channels, mainly in the Right Surround channel. Stats for the BD mix: DC offset -0.000048 Min level -0.629489 Max level 0.594391 Pk lev dB -4.02 RMS lev dB -33.07 RMS Pk dB -11.22 RMS Tr dB -234.33 Crest factor 28.36 Flat factor 0.00 Pk count 2 Bit-depth 24/24 Num samples 657M Length s 13697.685 Scale max 1.000000 Window s 0.125 The BD clips in only 2 locations across all 7 channels. The tracks differ only about 1/2dB all around, including only 1/4dB difference in dynamics. They appear to be very similar, likely the same track save for some minor differences when putting the whole thing together. Given SME's prior remarks, and the BD's lack of clipping, I think the BD is the track to get since it is lossless and may contain more HF content compression may take away. Looking at every channel's PvA, it is quite obvious why this track is held in high regard for LF content. ALL the LCRS channels extend to nearly 5Hz. This track may be amenable to BEQ. The Two Towers and Return of the King as I have time. JSS
  22. Godzilla: KOTM has an improvement: It gains some needed heft and slam, but the film overall is lacking. Will post BEQ correction later. JSS
  23. GKM clips only a few times in the LCR. Center is the worst, but only a few samples worth of flat-tops. From the waveforms, great use of the SPL available without obvious flat-tops. But a horrible dynamic range, Only 24dB in dynamics for a 3-Star score. This film must have loud scenes throughout. Will try to check it out this weekend, it got the 'Pacific Rim' filter. Not unforeseen, as Legendary did both PacRim and Godzilla. Nice that they included ATMOS on the BD release, though. JSS
  24. That is an awesome tip. I'll have to use that in the future. JSS
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