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Best option for high impact home stereo subs in a small-ish room.


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8 hours ago, SME said:

Oh, I forgot about the VBSS, and when I was looking at vented PA460s, I was looking at the outcome of using 2 x PA460s in a single small vented box.  No wonder it didn't work.

If you don't mind the size and footprint, VBSS may be a great way to go.  Four of them at the 20 Hz tune will probably handle just about anything you throw at them, and they don't need much power at all.

Yeah the more I dig into the vbss it looks better and better. It will be more cabs and more space but they are just silly cheap to build, 4 cabs would run me about 850 bucks Canadian. I'm sure my wife would be fine with a row of 18's in the living room haha!   Still going to see what diysg has cooking with their new 18 cab when they add it to the website sometime this week. Its going to be more money but will have better drivers for sure.  He said the kit its going to cost just slightly more than the 15 as the driver has a ceramic magnet vs the neo in the 15.  A pair landed in Canada should be around 800 my dollars, plus some ply to finish them off.

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Yes, the 6mm is supposed rated super conservatively.

I've read so much conflicting information from ported to sealed, etc. It seemed that sealed is the no-brainer decision via bassthathz if you are going to buy more than 2 pa460s... Trying to find alternatives to that evidence... 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, kipman725 said:

Looking at the VBSS thread it looks like the xmax specified for the PA460 is geometric and so the usable excursion is a bit greater than specified:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2226642-v-b-s-s-diy-subwoofer-design-thread.html

 

Yeah I noticed that as well, usable may be around 11mm. Seems to be pretty decent and capable driver for what it is.  The price is just insane. A guy could likely build 10 cabs for about 2000 my dollars.

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I got an email back from DIYSG. The custom driver coming with their soon to be released 18" kits is based on this driver, but modified in some ways custom for their application. To early to tell as we don't know what changes were made, but what do you think about this driver as a starting point?

https://qcomponents.ca/Eminence-KAPPA-PRO-18LF-8.html

Based on the evolution of their offerings, the mbm-12 and 15, I imagine the 18 should be pretty similar to the vbss just with a better driver.  From what I can tell the same guy has developed all of them.

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  • 2 months later...

Thought I should update this thread as I went ahead and built a pair of VBSS subs to live with my Danleys.  The hype is real, these are fantastic sounding subs considering their inexpensive cost to build. They wont crack the stucco on my ceiling like the Skrams did, but for listening to music at moderately loud listening levels I couldn't have wished for a better outcome. Thanks for the help everyone, the project was a success! And I didn't blow a bunch of money I didn't need to spend in these strange times.

Aesthetically I think they make for a great match with the Danley's as well.

https://imgur.com/gallery/R1JSs05

 

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4 hours ago, jay michael said:

Thought I should update this thread as I went ahead and built a pair of VBSS subs to live with my Danleys.  The hype is real, these are fantastic sounding subs considering their inexpensive cost to build. They wont crack the stucco on my ceiling like the Skrams did, but for listening to music at moderately loud listening levels I couldn't have wished for a better outcome. Thanks for the help everyone, the project was a success! And I didn't blow a bunch of money I didn't need to spend in these strange times.

Aesthetically I think they make for a great match with the Danley's as well.

https://imgur.com/gallery/R1JSs05

 

Looking good. Is that the 15hz slot design? 

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7 hours ago, jay michael said:

Thought I should update this thread as I went ahead and built a pair of VBSS subs to live with my Danleys.  The hype is real, these are fantastic sounding subs considering their inexpensive cost to build. They wont crack the stucco on my ceiling like the Skrams did, but for listening to music at moderately loud listening levels I couldn't have wished for a better outcome. Thanks for the help everyone, the project was a success! And I didn't blow a bunch of money I didn't need to spend in these strange times.

Aesthetically I think they make for a great match with the Danley's as well.

https://imgur.com/gallery/R1JSs05

 

Looks nice! I bet they sound fantastic!

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On 7/14/2020 at 5:20 PM, klipsch said:

Looking good. Is that the 15hz slot design? 

I used the 31hz slot design configuration. If I stuff one side of the vent closed it tunes to 22hz.  In my experimenting I much preferred leaving both ports open.  There is still usable output down to about 27ish hz. 

 

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I'm actually heading to our local makerspace woodshop this weekend to cut up panels for another 4 of these.  I gave a couple of my music nerdy friends a demo and they immediately asked me to build pairs for them. For less than 1k Canadian you can build a pair with a berry nu3k included in the price.  Unreal value for the dollar.   

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Glad these are a hit.  Spread the bass!  :)

Have you done any measurements in the room yet?  A rudimentary standing wave calculation suggests you're likely to see a significant standing wave resonance at around 31.5 Hz (18 feet).  Taming that a bit with some EQ could improve the sound quality further and might also make the lower extension mode sound better.

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  • 4 months later...
12 hours ago, klipsch said:

Your good reviews sold me. 

I couldn't resist an opportunity to get 8 pa460s for $565.

Currently thinking of doing 2 dual opposed seales cabinets with 4 pa460 each.

Then wire both cabinets and all 8 drivers together for a single 4 ohm load. 

Build it

fWkCw8Z.jpg

 

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  • 2 months later...
On 12/14/2020 at 3:22 AM, klipsch said:

Your good reviews sold me. 

I couldn't resist an opportunity to get 8 pa460s for $565.

Currently thinking of doing 2 dual opposed seales cabinets with 4 pa460 each.

Then wire both cabinets and all 8 drivers together for a single 4 ohm load. 

I had similar subs to this, I found I needed a lot of amp power to cope with the massive low end EQ boost and had problems with heat accumulation in PA applications.  But for home use they should be great.

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  • 1 month later...
On 2/20/2021 at 8:46 AM, klipsch said:

Been really busy... Have one box glued and sanded. Need to get 2nd box going. Hopefully I can get some time soon 

Finally got everything up and running. 8 pa460s (2 boxes - each has 4 pa460 in a 2x2 dual opposed sealed box). 

6 HT18s sealed up front from 0-60hz.

8 PA460s sealed from 10 to 110hz

2 Nsw6021 skrams 31 to 110hz

Bass uniformity across all 7 seats improved a bit. If I were starting from scratch, I'd do 16 pa460s sealed and 4 Nsw6021 skrams. Crazy how these pa460s can only be 70ish bucks shipped with bulk pricing  and 15% coupon discount. 

Integration all done via a 10x10 minidsp. 

Pa460.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/29/2021 at 1:21 PM, Ricci said:

That's certainly plenty of headroom. What is your amplification for the different subs?

8 Stereo Integrity HT18s (2 aren't pictured as they are behind the first row of seats) get 4 channels from 2 cheap inuke 600s 

The 2 NSW21s in the 2 skrams and 8 PA460s (4 per box with a series parallel wiring between boxes) get 1 channel each of a sinbosen FP20000Q 230v (have an unused channel right now out of the 4 available)

Headroom is pretty good.  I'll run 75 to 80 db A weighted and hit 105 to 110 db C weighted for music at the main listening position with an RTA running.  

 

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3 hours ago, klipsch said:

Headroom is pretty good.  I'll run 75 to 80 db A weighted and hit 105 to 110 db C weighted for music at the main listening position with an RTA running. 

 

That's a major understatement with those numbers.  I'd imagine your system gets exercised a bit more with movie content?  Just for clarification, are both sets of numbers measured in "slow" mode?  Or "fast" mode?  Or are they peaks?  Is it the same for both?  Your words "I'll run" along with "and hit" make me curious.

I've found 79 dBA to be about right for a "reference level" for most music, and from there, C-weighted levels vary quite a bit depending on how much bass the system and the program have.  The program alone can be a huge variable.  I can easily go much higher while staying clean and comfortable, but not for very long if I want to avoid hearing threshold shifts.  And I do this with a fraction of the raw output capability that you have.  So yeah, you've got headroom.  :)

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Hi SME

Have really enjoyed all the details /experience / knowledge you have and continue to share.

Movie content can indeed flex things a bit.  Seems that more recent movies have sound engineers that are already boosting the low end, so I typically do not run as hot there.  A recent movie that I thought was mixed well in the recent past was Ford vs Ferrari. 

With RTA and music,  I've always enjoyed the feel (literally) of live music.  I run the bass hot in music to get that "feel" in my chest and such of the drums/bass while still saving my ears - still can hear up to 17.5khz in my 4th decade so hopefully it stays and what I've been doing in this hobby has been correct. 

For the RTA, it is typically fast and keeps the peaks held  on screen in addition to the current live reads.  The 100+ peaks are in the low end with 80dB peaks from mids to highs.  Many music genres mid and high peaks are pretty constant with less lonely peaks or difference between averages and highs.  Sorry for the confusion regarding "hits".  When a kick drum or similar "hits" (depending on genre), the RTA will show the low end Hz "hit" and then drop for a count or similar before it "hits" again.

Hope that makes sense

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What I found interesting is that, as SME already described, I think the reference point for 'loud' music listening at home (mid and near field) is around 80dbA, which is where the 'excitement' starts and I feel engaged with the music as my main element of sensual stimulation. In a live setting in a large hall or outdoors, I found that this 'excitement' starts at pretty much exactly 100dbA. I've mixed a show at 97dbA and it was just lacking excitement. When I boosted the overall volume to around 100dbA, it was there, 103db and it was too loud. My show still was a few db less loud than the main act's, which I found too loud (rock with bagpipes, which can be pretty nasty up high).

At home I'd die at 100dbA, that's just nuts, even for just a short moment. But what I've also found was that the lower the distortion of the system, the higher the point where "loud" becomes "too loud". I've finished a new system for my studio last week, which shouldn't exceed 0.2%THD@100db/1m 100Hz-20k and had a listening session with my dad. I turned it up a bit, but it didn't seem too excessive to me, until I tried to talk to my dad and noticed that he could barely converse, even while screaming at each other.
It was a bit shocking and since I've installed the speakers in the studio I need to constantly remind myself to not turn it up too much, because now distortion is no longer an indication of loudness. Interestingly, the woofer and mid will show power compression even before they exceed 0.1% THD anywhere in the spectrum the operate in, which is very astonishing. Now I'll just need to build a sub for the system, but I haven't even tested it out for its bass capabilities. The four 8" drivers should make some decent noise near field, but are of course limited in the lower regions since the designs are sealed (avoiding port resonances and noise).

Anyways, I'm pretty sure that system won't have a problem hitting 130db throughout most of the spectrum. My single near field SKHorn could already exceed 130db, I have no doubt that your system barely breaks a sweat at THX reference, unless you're going after the single digits.

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5 hours ago, klipsch said:

Hi SME

Have really enjoyed all the details /experience / knowledge you have and continue to share.

[...]

For the RTA, it is typically fast and keeps the peaks held  on screen in addition to the current live reads.  The 100+ peaks are in the low end with 80dB peaks from mids to highs.  Many music genres mid and high peaks are pretty constant with less lonely peaks or difference between averages and highs.  Sorry for the confusion regarding "hits".  When a kick drum or similar "hits" (depending on genre), the RTA will show the low end Hz "hit" and then drop for a count or similar before it "hits" again.

Hope that makes sense

Thanks for the compliment and for the clarification.  That looks like an amazing setup!

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