Jump to content

Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files


Ricci
 Share

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, pazo said:

I have 2 pieces RCF 21n401  .Any suggestions?

That is a fairly high Qts driver, which is not ideal for "small" cabs like this. The sims don't look good either. Voltage sensitivity is really rough and hornresp says it has 5db less headroom than a 21DS115.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
  • 9 months later...
On 4/5/2021 at 10:56 PM, OldMan said:

These look amazing! I have a CNC and would love to take a go at making a pair. @Ricciis this something you still share and if so may I pretty please :D

Sure. All of the files are available in the first couple of posts. 

Welcome to the forum. 🙂

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...

Hi Gang. After considering this monster I’m debating a driver. 

The IPals unless I can get a vendor to slash the price is a non starter for me. 

Would you all agree the next best is the Eminence NSW21? 

 

Beyond that the DS and Lavoce are third in terms of performance by my analysis here. 

In terms of most economical of output per dollar, would the Lavoce be the pick or the Eminence? My intended bandwidth is 35-100 with emphasis on kick drum (66-90hz)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/25/2021 at 9:11 PM, M88@FL450 said:

Hi Gang. After considering this monster I’m debating a driver. 

The IPals unless I can get a vendor to slash the price is a non starter for me. 

Would you all agree the next best is the Eminence NSW21? 

 

Beyond that the DS and Lavoce are third in terms of performance by my analysis here. 

In terms of most economical of output per dollar, would the Lavoce be the pick or the Eminence? My intended bandwidth is 35-100 with emphasis on kick drum (66-90hz)

 

 

I'd say you have a pretty good overview already. I have 4 21ds115, but if you want some 1-2db more headroom, go for the Eminence. Your call if you wanna spend the extra on that. For me (in Germany), the Eminence is twice the price than the 21ds115. It's actually almost the same price than the 21IPAL here. In the states it's more like 500 vs 700$ between LaVoce and Eminence I think. I'd personally go for the latter there.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Eminence NSW and the Beyma drivers are a little better match for the SKRAM cab due to the extra air volume behind the driver. 

Impedance for the SKHORN with dual Ipal's is available in the measurements section for it. 

I do not have experience with the clone amps but I do not think it would like dual Ipal's in series on sustained bass notes near tuning. It's a 2ohm load with those drivers. That's why I use the SP6000

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks. Good info. Ricci second to the ultimate k20 and iPal rig, what would be your second recommendation amp/driver combo for a bit more of an affordable build with max bang for the buck. 

 

Thanks much. 

 

Anyone have any recommendations on a supplier that can help with the cost of an iPal (qty of 4-8) if I went that direction? VIP?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Sanway clone amp handled 2R (one channel) sustained without issues. I let it pump out 4KW (again, one channel; sine wave) into my loadbank for over a minute, but kinda forgot it was fan modded, so it overheated and blew up on me.

I'd be pretty confident with the newer and sturdier version (mainly power supply changes with an additional fan next to the parts which blew up) when it's not fan modded. It muted the output pretty quickly into 1R (matter of milliseconds; SC protection kicked in), so it might not like it if the impedance of the actual cab dips below 2R.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/29/2021 at 5:51 PM, peniku8 said:

My Sanway clone amp handled 2R (one channel) sustained without issues. I let it pump out 4KW (again, one channel; sine wave) into my loadbank for over a minute, but kinda forgot it was fan modded, so it overheated and blew up on me.

I'd be pretty confident with the newer and sturdier version (mainly power supply changes with an additional fan next to the parts which blew up) when it's not fan modded. It muted the output pretty quickly into 1R (matter of milliseconds; SC protection kicked in), so it might not like it if the impedance of the actual cab dips below 2R.

What frequency was it doing 4kw? 1kHz is easy peasy...30Hz not so much. The magic smoke strikes again! No doubt those amps make power. 

Load banks are purely resistive, speakers are not. Dual 21Ipal does drop below 2ohms. 1.6 ohms at certain frequencies or thereabout. Not too bad with dynamic music. Long sustained notes near the impedance min gets tough on the amp. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ricci said:

What frequency was it doing 4kw? 1kHz is easy peasy...30Hz not so much. The magic smoke strikes again! No doubt those amps make power. 

Load banks are purely resistive, speakers are not. Dual 21Ipal does drop below 2ohms. 1.6 ohms at certain frequencies or thereabout. Not too bad with dynamic music. Long sustained notes near the impedance min gets tough on the amp. 

It was 1khz, which meant maximum heat development in the amp, which was the cause for its failure.

It sustained over 7khz (single channel) into 2R for 260 milliseconds at 1khz. That's 260 cycles. Wouldn't that means it's able to do 2.6 cycles at 10Hz at 7khz or does it behave differently? I was planning on measuring at different frequencies as well, but I have so many things on my plate at the moment, I can't tell when that'll happen.
I was also pretty pissed when the amp went up in smoke, which is why I stopped testing. But I think it should be fine if I limit it to 10 second tests instead of 'seeing what will happen' (I left the amps running at max for 2 minutes). The amp threw my 16A 230V breaker after 16 seconds anyways, I should've left it at that instead of plugging it into a 32A circuit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/29/2021 at 6:47 PM, Ricci said:

The Eminence NSW and the Beyma drivers are a little better match for the SKRAM cab due to the extra air volume behind the driver. 

Impedance for the SKHORN with dual Ipal's is available in the measurements section for it. 

I do not have experience with the clone amps but I do not think it would like dual Ipal's in series on sustained bass notes near tuning. It's a 2ohm load with those drivers. That's why I use the SP6000

I can find a ferrite (21QLEX1600FE) and neo (21LEX1600ND) 21" in beyma site, are both suitable or one better than the other? The ferrite seem to like a little bigger enclosures and a few other parameters are a little different. Do you mean they (or one of them?) are a better match than lavoce & B&c aswell? Also for ckram and Skram if so? I've not seen them recommended here before, interesting. The ferrite version is attractively priced in Europe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't know if this video (in Norwegian) has been shared already - I presume not due to the different-language "barrier" - but it shows what can only be the Skhorn with IPAL drivers at some Norwegian fella who specializes in building (and buying) horns speakers, big subs and the likes. He describes the Skhorn sound as (freely translated) "effortless, dynamic and airy." Attributes any serious (true) audiophile should aspire to from subs, I gather, but in reality few would ever get to experience their sound for, well.. obvious reasons when speaking of audiophiles in general. 
 



I take it the Skhorn is designed with the B&C 21SW152 and/or its IPAL sibling in mind? 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok. Just found out that the SKHorn is dependent on the iPal in its entire design concept. Usually we think of a cab and then figure which driver would best suit it. in this case it seems its the other way around and if you want to use other drivers, see the Skram. 

 

So, seems like I’ll be trying again to negotiate prices on iPals. The guy from VIP pretty much hung up on the Saturday so maybe I’ll try again on a weekday during business hours. He was clueless on what an iPal was. I think he just gave up to be honest and had better things to do. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, M88@FL450 said:

Ok. Just found out that the SKHorn is dependent on the iPal in its entire design concept. Usually we think of a cab and then figure which driver would best suit it. in this case it seems its the other way around and if you want to use other drivers, see the Skram. 

 

So, seems like I’ll be trying again to negotiate prices on iPals. The guy from VIP pretty much hung up on the Saturday so maybe I’ll try again on a weekday during business hours. He was clueless on what an iPal was. I think he just gave up to be honest and had better things to do. 

Ricci designed the sub after the IPAL but there are still many other drivers that work in this design.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/5/2021 at 5:00 PM, peniku8 said:

It was 1khz, which meant maximum heat development in the amp, which was the cause for its failure.

It sustained over 7khz (single channel) into 2R for 260 milliseconds at 1khz. That's 260 cycles. Wouldn't that means it's able to do 2.6 cycles at 10Hz at 7khz or does it behave differently? I was planning on measuring at different frequencies as well, but I have so many things on my plate at the moment, I can't tell when that'll happen.
I was also pretty pissed when the amp went up in smoke, which is why I stopped testing. But I think it should be fine if I limit it to 10 second tests instead of 'seeing what will happen' (I left the amps running at max for 2 minutes). The amp threw my 16A 230V breaker after 16 seconds anyways, I should've left it at that instead of plugging it into a 32A circuit.

Yes things behave much differently towards the frequency extremes. 1kHz is the defacto standard test for amps a lot of the time. Where the power ratings are measured. Testing at 20Hz or 20kHz is a lot rougher on the amplifier many times. It depends though. Some amps behave differently than others. The best amplifier testing I recall was the Bink's tests from something like 15 years ago. 

10 seconds is more than plenty IMHO. Hell I think 3 seconds 100% duty cycle would be enough. Those types of signals simply aren't in 99.99% of music, broadcast or, movie soundtrack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Ricci said:

Yes things behave much differently towards the frequency extremes. 1kHz is the defacto standard test for amps a lot of the time. Where the power ratings are measured. Testing at 20Hz or 20kHz is a lot rougher on the amplifier many times. It depends though. Some amps behave differently than others. The best amplifier testing I recall was the Bink's tests from something like 15 years ago. 

10 seconds is more than plenty IMHO. Hell I think 3 seconds 100% duty cycle would be enough. Those types of signals simply aren't in 99.99% of music, broadcast or, movie soundtrack.

I agree on the 3 seconds part. Amps either drop off from burst power to sustained power within a fraction of a second or they're burst power=sustained power type of amps. Looking at my Sanway test reveals that nothing much changes after the cap banks are drained (after just shy of a second). After 2 seconds it ended up on its sustained power level, which would happen even faster when driving two channels.

iB9LhPR.jpg

I think I'll go with 3 seconds at 1k, 100, 60, 30, 15 and 8Hz. It cuts down on my testing time, is less hard on the amps and my breakers are unlikely to trip like this. Looking back at my initial test, the 90 seconds test was pretty stupid. 90 seconds 100% duty cycle into 2R of a fan modded amp...

I will fool around with REW and stepped sine wave tests as well, maybe that reveals some interesting results (It can step level now and not just frequency)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...