Jump to content

(8) Sealed Incriminator Audio Judge 21" build


Recommended Posts

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Replies 458
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I don't care about F3.  Outside the context of the sensitivity vs. frequency (measured response) and impedance vs. frequency (to derive efficiency and amp demand), F3 is totally meaningless.  Furtherm

Heard about that one too Luke.       +1 That about covers it.   They flogged the hell out of those subs at the GTG. They were impressive while running too.  A lot of guys at the GTG have broke

So I take it a couple of HS24s went poof at a GTG? Who cares. Happens. I suppose Dave and Nick might be defensive because of a recent discussion advocating humongous amounts of power? Oh well, use it

Posted Images

Next time Mike is over we'll see if he can tell the difference between these two settings:

 

test1_zpspzhssdmo.jpg

 

 

The verdict is in, and for the first time ever I was able to stump Mike.  Neither of us could tell any difference between the two curves in my room.

 

I played Lone Survivor at reference twice, and then switched EQ and played it again twice. 

 

I then bumped the sub trim by +10db and played the scene twice again with each setting.

 

I repeated this experiment with Carbon Prevails.  Since my floor, furniture, and riser don't resonate much below 20hz, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

 

SUBWOOFER RISER!!  :P   Take that, Scott!!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Flat to sub 5-Hz, is that all 24,000w and a gagillion subs gets you?  And you still complain about a lack of tactile feel.  :)  Riser indeed!!! :)

 

Just kidding!  That looks incredibly impressive and I hope you are really happy with the results.  If I ever get up to your neck of the woods, I'd definitely like to experience your system.  I'm sure it's amazing.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Flat to sub 5-Hz, is that all 24,000w and a gagillion subs gets you?  And you still complain about a lack of tactile feel.  :)  Riser indeed!!! :)

 

Just kidding!  That looks incredibly impressive and I hope you are really happy with the results.  If I ever get up to your neck of the woods, I'd definitely like to experience your system.  I'm sure it's amazing.

 

You're welcome any time man!!

 

I'm happy with the change because flat to 10hz does make a noticeable difference.  It's not nearly as dramatic of a difference as I was hoping for, but there are some things I'm planning with the riser to address that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Luke, I'm looking forward to seeing what you will do re: the riser...really, really looking forward!

 

I have the exact same problem as you

I have a 10hz bw48 slope on my subs!

 

Being on concrete really sucks the bag!

 

As you I'm flat to 5hz but it's all upstairs that's felt the most!

 

My eye is big time following what you're going to do

 

Thanks

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a very interesting data point.  Thus far, any assessments I've seen concerning the audibility of content < 10 Hz have been compromised by the inability to rule out secondary mechanisms of perception like feeling a floor vibrate or hearing the walls of the room shake.  I imagine the walls of your room were shaking below 10 Hz, but I guess it wasn't enough for you or Mike to notice a difference with or without the curve flattened.

 

While it would be good to have more data like this before making an overall judgement, the implication is that it might be best to aim for 10 Hz+ with subs and use tactile transducers to cover the very bottom of the spectrum.  Maybe I should consider going ported and investing more money into Crowsons?  Though I'm not sure I can build big enough ported boxes to reach to 10 Hz.  FWIW, I'm also on a suspended floor, so sticking with sealed is probably still worthwhile.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a very interesting data point.  Thus far, any assessments I've seen concerning the audibility of content < 10 Hz have been compromised by the inability to rule out secondary mechanisms of perception like feeling a floor vibrate or hearing the walls of the room shake.  I imagine the walls of your room were shaking below 10 Hz, but I guess it wasn't enough for you or Mike to notice a difference with or without the curve flattened.

 

While it would be good to have more data like this before making an overall judgement, the implication is that it might be best to aim for 10 Hz+ with subs and use tactile transducers to cover the very bottom of the spectrum.  Maybe I should consider going ported and investing more money into Crowsons?  Though I'm not sure I can build big enough ported boxes to reach to 10 Hz.  FWIW, I'm also on a suspended floor, so sticking with sealed is probably still worthwhile.

 

For me the take away is how much the room, mostly whether you're on concrete or a suspended floor, impacts perceivable feedback.  Another factor is the furniture being sat on, as I've had some pieces of furniture really resonate nicely while others don't at all.

 

I tested Mike with a few scenes but I've personally run each EQ setting against almost a dozen movie clips with content below 10hz and I didn't detect even the slightest difference on any of them.  

 

To rule out "me" as the problem I like to blind test a few other folks.

 

If you're on a suspended floor I'd definitely give sealed a try first! 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Like we talked about last night, I preferred the non EQed version of Lone Survivor vs the EQed version. Can't explain it. Also, if the walls were shaking I didn't hear them. I still think that your room sounds so good, I'm not sure I'd chase the white rabbit.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

My tag line is you don't listen to our subs, you EXPERIENCE them, An early question I ask when someone mentions wanting more tactile feel is are they on concrete or a suspended floor. If on concrete I mention they won't get near the tactile feel as if on a suspended floor. I just try to manage those expectations from the beginning. Or in the case of a recent test on different construction of risers, I try to give advice on constructing a riser if that is a possibility.

 

Also, I talked to Nyal last week and he doesn't like going with 1x4s sideways as he doesn't like the potential resonances small cavities can sometimes have. And he also always suggests two layers of 21/32" OSB with a layer of Green Glue between them. And he says it takes about 30 days for the Green Glue to dry to its effective and stiffer form.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Some compression sweeps with just the 21s and their typical 22hz LPF (xo point to the Othorns):

 

EQ2_zpsenrbfnpj.jpg

 

 

There was a 24db increase in volume from the first sweep to the last.  The last sweep resulted in this:

 

clipping_zpstmkapq6b.png

 

 

 

Going off the data, here's the actual volume increase at each frequency:
 
5hz:  23.7db
10hz: 23.2db
15hz: 24.6db
20hz: 23.8db 
 
The most compression in the mic was at 10hz, which makes sense since that's where the signal is actually boosted the most.
 
This also shows me that there's zero compression from the subs yet, which isn't surprising since excursion looked to be just below 1.5" peak to peak at this point.
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bah!  Luke, none of this means anything cuz you used car audio subs.  Heheheh.

 

Yeah I obviously have no idea what I'm doing.

 

Sealed subs crossing over to tapped horns crossing over to ported mids crossing over to coaxial compression drivers...my whole system is a joke!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Well looks like someone has some more fun awaiting them in a week or so. :D

 

Dragon Blade certain gives the 21s a workout!  Fatshaft sent me a clip of the movie.

 

 

 

 

 

This is at reference, and for my subs to be flat to 10hz they have +10db of PEQ applied at 10hz. In addition to that, this was played with the sub trim bumped +15db!!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

The last few weeks I've done a ton of measuring and tweaking to the integration of the sealed and horns. 

 

Instead of sharper crossovers with the sealed beginning to drop off quickly at ~25z, I raised the crossover points and switched from BW4 to BW3 filters.  

 

Here's what the sum (red) and individual sweeps look like between the sealed and horns at the moment:

 

9-2_zpsi5js68pb.jpg

 

 

Now instead of the Othorns being almost completely solo from 30hz+, the sealed setup augments the response up until about 50hz.  From 30-40hz I added about 6db of additional headroom. 

 

I pushed things to pretty close to the limit last night:

 

143db_zps4e3dadpi.png

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

Had Mike over for a movie last night but first I had a little test prepared for him. 

 

A subjective preference test between two options:

1. Sealed subs flat to 10hz WITHOUT the Crowsons
2. No subs with the mains running full range WITH the Crowsons

All scenes were run at reference, and here's how the two systems measured:

 

12-1_zpsaaxsdnyi.jpg

 

 

 

Both me and Mike preferred option #2!  Gotta love concrete floors.   

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...