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HST18 / HS24


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If you use big boxes or I.B., you can get all the displacement out of them with a lot less amp power than is required in small boxes.  Assuming this is the case and you can buy as big of an amp as you need, you still get 6 dB per doubling of drivers because you are ultimately displacement limited.

 

Another interesting question is what happens if you double the number of drivers in small boxes *but you keep the total internal volume the same*.  The answer is that you get as little as 0 dB increase in output because the efficiency increase from the driver area doubling is cancelled by the efficiency loss of cutting the volume per driver in half, but you still get reduced distortion and power compression because each driver sees have as much power and 0.71X as much excursion for the same output level.  The system will also be harder to damage.

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Hello All,   Sorry for the long radio silence.. work (as always) kept me from any progress on the cinema project. Last weekend however I finished all cabinets.. the 4 HS24 twins and the 4 LowMid

THE BASSFULL EIGHT...

Leons wasn't being unable to push to the system limits the point? That's what I always go for. I consider acceptable headroom achieved when I'm starting to get scared of breaking things in the structu

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OK, Josh, I'll have to call you on this one because one of us just doesn't seem to get how dynamic source works and I need to get to the bottom of it.

 

Firstly, yes, long term sine waves and/or sine sweeps can ruin a driver... any driver. Duh. Let's move on.

 

At Brandon's previous GTG, we ran the SP2-8000, one channel per VC of a single HS24. The driver was in the same box you tested it in. So, using the dictates in your post, the max the amp was giving was 1000 watts per channel, more likely less than that because the content included well below 20-25 Hz and the driver did not indicate being at X-Mech to anyone in attendance including myself, who had his head literally in the cone.

 

Seriously?

 

I'll post this again, to open the discussion. The Hulk punch scene. Let's assume the 10 Hz portion of the content is 3,000 watts, or, enough to drive the HST-15s to maximum excursion. (It's impossible to segregate the 10 Hz portion of the effect but driver excursion in the known box volume is a pretty good yardstick) So, the other 3-1/2 octaves of content in the effect require zero watts? Paul's DMM isn't accurate to a fraction of a volt? The A-9K really doesn't output 9,000 watts?

 

2HvO5Rb.jpg

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My intention wasn't at all to bring up those aspects the GTG, so forget I said it. 

 

I don't agree with your observation that I'm biased.  I'm a simple hobbyist who has no stock in any of this.  Can you say the same?  Good luck with that. 

 

You need to own stock to have a bias? Well, there goes my bias for Heinz Ketchup.

 

Try to stow the hard guy shit until we get through this?

 

You brought up the suggestion, not me. We've been through this before. Your amplifier is only viable when run into 2 ohms nominal, stereo. It cannot be bridged and into 4 ohms or 8 ohms nominal loads it doesn't stand a chance against a bridged A-14K.

 

Therefore, I'm restricted to using D4 VCs and a wiring scheme that ends up at 2 ohms per stack. Although you believe that that scheme is perfectly acceptable, I do not agree. OTOH, if you will send me one and accept full responsibility for its well being, I will oblige and wire a Raptor System III to a dual 2 ohm scheme and be happy to do it. It will likely measure a nominal Re of 1.8 per channel.

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You need to own stock to have a bias? Well, there goes my bias for Heinz Ketchup.

 

Try to stow the hard guy shit until we get through this?

 

You brought up the suggestion, not me. We've been through this before. Your amplifier is only viable when run into 2 ohms nominal, stereo. It cannot be bridged and into 4 ohms or 8 ohms nominal loads it doesn't stand a chance against a bridged A-14K.

 

Therefore, I'm restricted to using D4 VCs and a wiring scheme that ends up at 2 ohms per stack. Although you believe that that scheme is perfectly acceptable, I do not agree. OTOH, if you will send me one and accept full responsibility for its well being, I will oblige and wire a Raptor System III to a dual 2 ohm scheme and be happy to do it. It will likely measure a nominal Re of 1.8 per channel.

 

I meant I'm just a guy on the side lines having fun with this stuff.  It has no bearing on me whatsoever if whatever amp/sub performs or underperforms. 

 

You, the guy who is selling this stuff, are accusing the hobbyist of bias just because I thought a comparison of similarly powered amps would be cool.  Good grief man.   

 

EDIT:  There is no "my amp" in this.  I don't own the SP2-8000.  You also ignore that sources who know these amps well say they'll produce full power as low at ~1.5ohm.  My starting load of 1.217ohm also didn't pose any problems for my particular amp in any way.  A stereo load with an Re of 1.8ohm doesn't strike me as a problem.

 

I certainly won't take your biased stance of "it doesn't stand a chance against a bridged A-14K".  I'd let actual testing speak to that.   

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OK, Josh, I'll have to call you on this one because one of us just doesn't seem to get how dynamic source works and I need to get to the bottom of it.

 

Firstly, yes, long term sine waves and/or sine sweeps can ruin a driver... any driver. Duh. Let's move on.

 

At Brandon's previous GTG, we ran the SP2-8000, one channel per VC of a single HS24. The driver was in the same box you tested it in. So, using the dictates in your post, the max the amp was giving was 1000 watts per channel, more likely less than that because the content included well below 20-25 Hz and the driver did not indicate being at X-Mech to anyone in attendance including myself, who had his head literally in the cone.

 

Seriously?

 

 

 

Yes I'm serious...

 

Please tell me you are not bringing up the now infamous SP2-8000 on a single HS-24 discussion as part of this? It is as simple as this...If the amp was clipping and the driver was not bottoming or burning up then the material was not that demanding or wasn't played very long. That is all that there is to it.

You were at Brandon's at this last GTG were you not? Some material played there WAS demanding.

 

Let's talk about dynamic wide band content.This is not content that is that difficult on drivers. That is what matters when it comes to system design / limitations and failures. The Hulk scene you posted in your reply? Yes it has a lot of low bass, however it is very wide band and a lot of the energy is up top so some of your amplifiers voltage is being used to amplify that range and not the deep bass. Also it only lasts very briefly. No real power applied over time. It's a rough signal compared to most but something with a narrow bandwidth like a sine wave at a single deep frequency produces far more excursion for the same voltage applied from the amplifier. That's why the DB tests indicate much lower voltages in the deep bass versus wide band content. It is much more focused energy. Add some real duration to something like that and you get bad news. You can say that content similar to test signals isn't out there or is rare or whatever but it can and does happen.

 

The only reason I posted in the first place was the bridged 240v K20 on a single 24 comment. I thought it was a joke at first because it's so ridiculous. Almost every driver tested has been able to take a 10th of a second burst at 50Hz with the full power from a K10 or K20. By your logic we need a whole bridged K20 to drive a 12" LMSR or a Sundown Sa-15. Otherwise you won't get the full 6dB from doubling drivers. That's assuming that someone is dumb enough to strap enough amp capability to grenade the driver on it and that the driver could somehow survive the amp applying full power with real content. Neither of which are true at all. C'mon man...

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Yes, it is the only scene to trip my 20 amp breaker!  Last long and strong at 6hz the whole time.  I am testing the Inuke 6000 and Peavy IPR2 on it to see if both can handle it. My Sanway tripped the breaker because it is less efficient.  I don't need all the power because I don't need the LT for my IB.

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Yes I'm serious...

 

Please tell me you are not bringing up the now infamous SP2-8000 on a single HS-24 discussion as part of this? It is as simple as this...If the amp was clipping and the driver was not bottoming or burning up then the material was not that demanding or wasn't played very long. That is all that there is to it.

You were at Brandon's at this last GTG were you not? Some material played there WAS demanding.

 

Let's talk about dynamic wide band content.This is not content that is that difficult on drivers. That is what matters when it comes to system design / limitations and failures. The Hulk scene you posted in your reply? Yes it has a lot of low bass, however it is very wide band and a lot of the energy is up top so some of your amplifiers voltage is being used to amplify that range and not the deep bass. Also it only lasts very briefly. No real power applied over time. It's a rough signal compared to most but something with a narrow bandwidth like a sine wave at a single deep frequency produces far more excursion for the same voltage applied from the amplifier. That's why the DB tests indicate much lower voltages in the deep bass versus wide band content. It is much more focused energy. Add some real duration to something like that and you get bad news. You can say that content similar to test signals isn't out there or is rare or whatever but it can and does happen.

 

The only reason I posted in the first place was the bridged 240v K20 on a single 24 comment. I thought it was a joke at first because it's so ridiculous. Almost every driver tested has been able to take a 10th of a second burst at 50Hz with the full power from a K10 or K20. By your logic we need a whole bridged K20 to drive a 12" LMSR or a Sundown Sa-15. Otherwise you won't get the full 6dB from doubling drivers. That's assuming that someone is dumb enough to strap enough amp capability to grenade the driver on it and that the driver could somehow survive the amp applying full power with real content. Neither of which are true at all. C'mon man...

 

 

You are correct.  I have a few albums of bass "music" lol where the tracks look very similar to this one:

 

Earth_zpsrmdrnewf.jpg

 

 

It's 6-7 seconds straight of pure sine waves at various frequencies.

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Too soon! :P

 

 

My comment was an aside from what Dave and Josh are discussing with a "demanding scene" like Hulk street fight punch scene. It's intense but Lone Survivor, in comparison, is MUCH more demanding on both the amplifiers and in turn, the drivers.

 

Curious what he thinks of the sequence subjectively on his system as Dave was quite impressed with the SL of that scene at Brandon's.

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My comment was an aside from what Dave and Josh are discussing with a "demanding scene" like Hulk street fight punch scene. It's intense but Lone Survivor, in comparison, is MUCH more demanding on both the amplifiers and in turn, the drivers.

 

Curious what he thinks of the sequence subjectively on his system as Dave was quite impressed with the SL of that scene at Brandon's.

 

Oh I know.  But you're bringing up such a painful memory. LOL!

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Hey. I haven't heard any complaints yet. Maybe only once....or maybe a couple times actually. :unsure:

 

Lol don't you guys throw me under the bus. Paul posted about that scene in the first post of Brandon's GTG thread which cuts a little closer to the jugular. :P

 

 

And hey! Where are dem **** you promised us? Come back later with some pics, Adam. :ph34r:

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Some of this is over my head as far as what an amps capabilities need to be for reproducing soundtracks and sustained tones, but from what I glean I thought Dave's beef with this is just that 8 24's will not reach the levels people think they will off Josh's numbers simply because his numbers are off a 240V 50A line and an amp capable of extreme output? Whether it's up top or down low it still needs doubling the voltage for 3db correct?

 

 

 

 

Sorry Scott she lol when I told her but the lighting is bad down there. :D

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Double the wattage for 3dB, yes.

 

Idk what Dave is talking about but he has a habit of saying odd things to make.... some point. His point, I'm sure. :P

 

All I know is that it takes plenty of juice and major displacement to produce a lot of full bandwidth bass. I think we're all on the same page about that.

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Yah I agree I just think guys rely on Josh's numbers and forget what he uses to get those numbers, and the 24 was in a box that was what 20cuft?? Yes 8 24's would put out some insane numbers but only if they have some good power behind them. The K20 ain't exactly cheap. 8 of Dgage's 24's would be over $20k. Though he does a have working website so thats gotta mean something. ;)

 

I wish one hobby just one would be cheap.  :(

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You are correct.  I have a few albums of bass "music" lol where the tracks look very similar to this one:

 

Earth_zpsrmdrnewf.jpg

 

 

It's 6-7 seconds straight of pure sine waves at various frequencies.

I've looked at a lot of bass music in SL and that doesn't look like any of it.  I'm pretty positive that someone used the tone generator in REW for that. :lol:

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I've looked at a lot of bass music in SL and that doesn't look like any of it.  I'm pretty positive that someone used the tone generator in REW for that. :lol:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Sounds-Universe-Mekanik-Presents-Launch/dp/B00BBUMY2A/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1449877967&sr=8-12&keywords=bass+launch

 

That SpecLab capture above is the beginning of track 18.

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If he's powering them with a few FP14k clones, he'll have some serious out-put regardless as long as has the dedicated circuits to back it up. Yeah, we're exaggerating a bit (come on now, it's all in good fun), but he will have some insane output no matter how you slice it or what technicality you call out on it. Definitely more output than any sane man will ever need in their lifetimes.

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