Can MIC2200 or MiniDSP cause clipping to Bass signal?

[Aj72]

I noticed today the clip lights flickering on my Crown XLS5000. I normally don't look and was running things pretty loud but not ridiculous (maybe 120dB but didn't measure it). The EP4000 clip lights were coming on harder but not by much. I would've thought the Behringer EP4000 would come on way before the Crown but they seemed pretty close if you can judge by the light display.

 

The signal chain from the preamp LFE channel goes to miniDSP 2X4, then the Behringer MIC2200, then the Power amps (EP4000 or XLS5000) to the subs which are wired for 8Ohm. I run the power amps in bridged mono mode.

 

I use the MIC2200 to adjust gain and noticed that during the loud scenes the lights (on the MIC2200) indicating output level hitting 18dB and it doesn't go any higher than this. After using the miniDSP I had to increase the gain on both channels (of the MIC2200) to about +8-10dB to get the output I wanted. Could this be causing the amp clip lights to come on?

 

Or is this the result of the miniDSP chewing up headroom? I know the Behringer is underpowering the JTR 2400 Captivator's which is what I have but I thought the XLS5000 at double the output of the EP4000 wouldn't be.

[Bossobass Dave]

Some Qs and general info that might help to get this thread rolling forward:

 

First, and this is for anyone reading who uses a pro sound amplifier to power his subs, a quick word from Rane about the front panel knobs of your amps:

 

First, let's establish that power amplifier "level/volume/gain" controls are input sensitivity controls. (no matter how they are calibrated.) They are not power controls. They have absolutely nothing to do with output power. They are sensitivity controls, i.e., these controls determine exactly what input level will cause the amplifier to produce full power. Or, if you prefer, they determine just how sensitive the amplifier is. For example, they might be set such that an input level of +4 dBu causes full power, or such that an input level of +20 dBu causes full power, or whatever-input-level-your-system-may-require, causes full power.

 

Next, you say the gain on the MIC2200 is set to "+8-10". What does that mean? IOW, what is the range of the gain setting. IIRC, the MIC2200 has a range of 10-60 in dB?

 

Also, the LED scale is hitting +18dB, the max but he clip LED doesn't come on? If so, you're hitting somewhere between +18-20dB or 23dB or whatever the MIC2200 max output spec is before clipping.

 

If that's the case, you need to set the amp so that the MIC2200 output drives the amp to full power and not into clipping. Here's a quick method, also from Rane:

 

 

1.    At the amplifier, disconnect the loudspeakers that cannot handle demanding sine and pink noise test signals, or for those confident the test signal will not harm their loudspeaker(s), warn everyone you are about to make a LOT of noise! Can you say "ear plugs?"
2.    Turn the amplifier sensitivity controls all the way down (least sensitive; fully CCW; off). Warning: even at this minimum sensitivity setting, many amplifiers still produce considerable levels. Since all upstream level controls are currently set to deliver the maximum signal, use an upstream level control that is easily and accurately reset to its current position to turn down the test signal. This is most likely the console's main output level.
3.    Turn on the first power amplifier.

4.    Return the system level to its previous setting at the console's main output to make sure the signal at the device driving the amp is again delivering max (unclipped) signal.
5.    Slowly rotate the amplifier sensitivity control until clipping just begins. Stop! This is the maximum possible power output using the maximum system input signal. In general, if there is never a bigger input signal, this setting guarantees the amplifier cannot clip. (Note: if this much power causes the loudspeaker to "bottom out," or distort in any manner, then you have a mismatch between your amp and speaker. Matching speakers and amps is another subject beyond this note.)
6.    Repeat the above process for each power amplifier.
7.    Turn the test signal off, reconnect the loads to the amplifiers if need be.

 

 

EDIT: BTW, yes, the signal chain can definitely cause amp clipping.

[Aj72]

Thanks Bosso. The gain range on the MIC2200 knob goes from -20dB to +20dB. The LED lights max at +18dB on the MIC2200 but I don't recall seeing a red area towards the max in the LED range that indicates it was clipping ,doesn't mean it isn't though right given amp is clipping?

 

 

I will try those things suggested in the Rane article. The other thing I'm reading on the MiniDSP thread is the unbalanced version of the 2 X 4 voltage is only 0.9 volts. The balanced version is 2.0v. Many people reported in the early days (reading the thread last night) that this was not enough voltage to allow the pro amps to achieve full power due to the input signal being clipped. The higher voltage of the balanced version seems to address this mismatch (between domestic gear and proamp) but I'm still not sure as I run a Samson s Convert in the signal chain which I thought would address this issue. I've put my signal chain below.

 

Rotel Preamp-> MiniDSP 2X4 unbalanced-> Samson s Convert-> MIC2200-> Crown XLS5000 or Behringer EP4000-> JTR 2400 Captivators

 

Definitely feel my pro amp(s) are not being driven to full power but not sure if it's just the unbalanced mini DSP causing the issue?

[BeastAudio]

I see redundancy between the s convert and the mic2200. Not sure, but almost positive after my own tests, you don't need BOTH of those in the chain.

[Infrasonic]

Agreed.

[Shredhead]

If you take the Sconvert out of the chain, the MIC2200 should have more than enough gain to boost the Mini where it needs to be.  The MIC2200 says it has a max output of ~8.7V so it should be more than enough to drive those amps.  Have you tried taking the MiniDSP out of the chain and seeing if there is a huge difference in output? 

[Aj72]

Yes with the mini DSP in the signal chain there is a huge difference in output (drops about 10dB). Likewise I have tried using just the MIC2200 (no Samson S Convert) to boost signal (as well as my AVR subtrim) but although loud something doesn't sound right like the signal is hollow and lacks punch/detail which is why I've had to persist with the Samson. I think without the Samson in line I had to boost around +16dB to hit a similar SPL reading. This would be fine if it sounded as good but in reality it's a night and day difference. I could try a new preamp which mightn't have the signal strength issue but like the sound of the Rotel and only bought it less than two years ago so not ready to move it on yet.. I will try with the S Convert out of the signal chain and lower other speaker levels but think signal strength will still be an issue.

[Shredhead]

Well it sounds like something is wrong with your gain stages.  Hard to say what, it could be more than one thing.  You can use hot source material like Interstellar, HTTYD, WOTW, or Earth to Echo and a multimeter with a fast peak voltage detect and set each component's output to it's rated max.  Or wait until maxmercy makes his test disc and use that with a cheaper multimeter with it's RMS function and set each component to it's rated max down the line to your amps. 

 

In the meanwhile, I'm guessing that the MiniDSP doesn't accept anything over a Volt as it's input without clipping so set your sub trim on your AVR for low levels depending on it's max Voltage out.  Then be mindful of your MIC2200's clip lights while playing hot movies so you don't send a clipped signal to the sub amps.  It can convert unbalanced to balanced and has plenty of gain so you no longer need the s convert. 

[SME]

If you don't know what's wrong, then there is probably an issue with gain staging somewhere.  Does your amp have a gain knob?  If so, turn it way down.  Then you'll need a high level test signal.  If you don't have anything, you can at least use the tone generator in REW, which on my system can be made to output up to 2 channels (at almost) dBFS, which is 111 dB.  Beware that my version of REW allows a tone level of "-3 dB" to be chosen, which causes it to clip slightly (and audibly) because a sine wave needs 3.0103 dB of headroom.  You'll have to manually enter the value "-3.1" instead.  Turn the gain knob on the amp way down.  (Your thought process should follow mine when fooling around with high level test tones.  Note, I don't take responsibility if you fry your system in this process)

 

Once you have the tone playing, you can adjust the gain on the amp to a reasonable level.  It should be a nice clean sine tone.  If you hear a lot of distortion, then something in your chain is clipping.  If not, go to the first gain control in the signal chain and increase the setting gradually (adjusting the amp gain down as necessary) until you hear clipping set in.  It's *very easy* to hear the onset of digital clipping with a sine wave.  When you just start to hear the sine distort, back off by 1 dB.  Now, if you had a true digital full scale all-channels (DFSAC) test signal, you would have the gain just right.  If your test signal is not a DFSAC test signal, then you can still set the gain right it you know the difference in level between your test signal and the DFSAC level, which is about 125 dB RMS or 128 dB peak.  You just have to decrease it by that difference.

 

Once you've optimized one gain control, move downstream and optimize the next using the same approach.  All that's left is to figure out how much amp headroom you have, and it's a usually a *bad idea* to use continuous test tones for that purpose.

 

Note that EQ, crossovers, and filters have effects on gain that cannot be adequately revealed by testing with single sine waves.  If you use any of these features, you will have to also account for the headroom you lose by doing so.  As a starting point, you can look at the magnitude frequency response of your filters and see where it peaks, but for various reasons this is only a minimum estimate.  Some people add in an additional fudge factor such as "3 dB".

[maxmercy]

Yes with the mini DSP in the signal chain there is a huge difference in output (drops about 10dB). Likewise I have tried using just the MIC2200 (no Samson S Convert) to boost signal (as well as my AVR subtrim) but although loud something doesn't sound right like the signal is hollow and lacks punch/detail which is why I've had to persist with the Samson. I think without the Samson in line I had to boost around +16dB to hit a similar SPL reading. This would be fine if it sounded as good but in reality it's a night and day difference. I could try a new preamp which mightn't have the signal strength issue but like the sound of the Rotel and only bought it less than two years ago so not ready to move it on yet.. I will try with the S Convert out of the signal chain and lower other speaker levels but think signal strength will still be an issue.

My MiniDSP Open DRC-AN is the link in the chain with the lowest output, only 2V.  Input sensitivity on my sub amps is 1.25V, but at 8Ohm.  I run each channel at 2Ohm.

 

I have some other projects I am working on, but plan to get the test disc done this summer.

 

JSS

[Shredhead]

REW ain't gonna get it done SME.  A movie with strong re-directed bass will output over 3 times the amount of voltage as using REW's generator in stereo. 

 

How about this:  Interstellar has a few scenes where it holds a high level with re-directed bass out of the sub out (Bosso SL'd the longest scene like this I believe).  You can get one of those $10 analog RMS meters at depot or lowes and put it on your AVR.  Analog meters show a better real time readout for rms peaks than digital ones (unless you spend hundreds).  Set the meter to 10V-AC.  Make sure that the AVR's output during the scene doesn't exceed 1V to feed the Mini.  I'm guessing that it (Mini) won't accept an input voltage over what it can output anyway, you can look in the manual to see if they list input sensitivity. 

 

Are you using the Mini for filters that have boost?  If so, you can put the meter on the Mini's out and adjust the trim on your AVR until the output on the Mini is just under .9Vrms on the meter needle for the movie scene.  Then move to the MIC2200's output and make sure that it is around what the input sensitivity is listed at for your amps to drive at full power. 

 

-You can use other movie scenes but the shorter the high output burst in the scene, the harder is it will be to accurately see it on the meter.  Earth to Echo would be another good one to use.  You would figure Edge of Tomorrow's intro would work but it ends up being well under these other movies in voltage. 

[Ricci]

If I might ask...Have you thought about selling all of these units? There is a lot of redundancy here. The S convert can be removed as mentioned. The MIC2200 can boost up the signal plenty to the amplifiers. You seem to be trying to add some EQ capability to your subwoofers as most guys do, but have ended up with an overly complicated gain structure due to the lack of headroom in the minidsp.

 

One Behringer DCX2496 would easily replace all of the units below.

 

MiniDSP 2X4 unbalanced-> Samson s Convert-> MIC2200->

 

 It can provide 30dB of gain, EQ and over 10volts output prior to clipping. You also don't need to hook up a pc to make adjustments or switch presets.

 

Personally I find the input and output voltage limitations of the minidsp's both balanced and unbalanced to be a deal killer for handling the LFE channel. Some guys have success with them but they aren't for me.

[SME]

REW ain't gonna get it done SME.  A movie with strong re-directed bass will output over 3 times the amount of voltage as using REW's generator in stereo.

It's not ideal, but if one can find the clip point with a 111 dB rms test tone (2 channels full scale), then one can compensate for the difference by dropping that gain control by another 14-15 dB or so.

 

Personally I find the input and output voltage limitations of the minidsp's both balanced and unbalanced to be a deal killer for handling the LFE channel. Some guys have success with them but they aren't for me.

I hear you.  This has definitely been a bit of a pain point for me.  Thankfully, my current subs have integrated amps with a lot of gain capability.  I also have my MiniDSP 2x4 configured for 2.0V input and I use a line attenuator between my AVR and it so I can maximize the headroom available in my AVR.  In the end, I have the headroom I want, but between the gain structure and a couple of long unbalanced cable runs, I have enough noise to just barely hear it when my ears adapt to the dead quiet room.  With even low level content playing, I never notice them.

 

Edit: The real limitation I've encountered with the MiniDSP 2x4 is that the numerical precision is insufficient to reliably implement filters below 20-30 Hz or so.

[BeastAudio]

If I might ask...Have you thought about selling all of these units? There is a lot of redundancy here. The S convert can be removed as mentioned. The MIC2200 can boost up the signal plenty to the amplifiers. You seem to be trying to add some EQ capability to your subwoofers as most guys do, but have ended up with an overly complicated gain structure due to the lack of headroom in the minidsp.

 

One Behringer DCX2496 would easily replace all of the units below.

 

MiniDSP 2X4 unbalanced-> Samson s Convert-> MIC2200->

 

 It can provide 30dB of gain, EQ and over 10volts output prior to clipping. You also don't need to hook up a pc to make adjustments or switch presets.

 

Personally I find the input and output voltage limitations of the minidsp's both balanced and unbalanced to be a deal killer for handling the LFE channel. Some guys have success with them but they aren't for me.

 I liked that post, but i lied. I LOVE that post..... I have been getting a lot of inspiration lately to pop my DCX back in for some reason. I guess it could just be nostalgia. But the voltage issues that I would run into running XLR balanced from my marantz to the minidsp is just something I don't want to deal with right now, and the DCX would handle all that JUST FINE> 

[Aj72]

If I might ask...Have you thought about selling all of these units? There is a lot of redundancy here. The S convert can be removed as mentioned. The MIC2200 can boost up the signal plenty to the amplifiers. You seem to be trying to add some EQ capability to your subwoofers as most guys do, but have ended up with an overly complicated gain structure due to the lack of headroom in the minidsp.

 

One Behringer DCX2496 would easily replace all of the units below.

 

MiniDSP 2X4 unbalanced-> Samson s Convert-> MIC2200->

 

 It can provide 30dB of gain, EQ and over 10volts output prior to clipping. You also don't need to hook up a pc to make adjustments or switch presets.

 

Personally I find the input and output voltage limitations of the minidsp's both balanced and unbalanced to be a deal killer for handling the LFE channel. Some guys have success with them but they aren't for me.

 

 

 

Thanks for all the input. I have been looking at the DCX as the next move and your recommendation has me thinking seriously about it now. I'm starting to think there's something wrong with my preamp (Rotel) because the signal strength to the LFE channel is not only inadequate but when I boost using the Rotel's subtrims or the MIC2200 gain to compensate it doesn't sound right. It should though right? I have measured using Dayton V2 Omnimic and matching SPL levels using Rotel's test tones. Without any boosting applied and no Samson S Convert in line the test tones (generated by my Rotel) between the LCR and LFE channels all measure the same. I have found the LFE channel test signal needs to be around +14dB more than the left/right/centre speakers for things to sound right. Using the boost in either the MIC2200 or Rotel to achieve this (+14dB) level results in loudness but in reality the sound is hollow and lacking impact. Using the Samson to do the same thing (+14dB) is a night and day difference the sound is full and has much more weight and impact. I know it shouldn't be like this and am starting to think my Rotel's LFE channel is not right but it's how it is I'm not imagining this. I'm (as you can probably tell) not the most knowledgeable on this subject and I will have to think about which way I want to go but I'm realising that I may have to cut my losses on the Mini DSP and possibly even the Rotel and start again. I had bought the Mini DSP on the advice of somebody who I then paid to also do the EQ so I wasted a bit of money there. The funny thing is I achieved a very good result at my old place just using the MIC2200 and Dayton Omnimic but moved house. Although I could get a similar Frequency Response using the MIC2200 and Omnimic in my new place in reality, it didn't sound anywhere near as good across some of the FR hence the reason I looked at the Mini. I can still play loud enough for normal listening levels without issue and I do like how clean it sounds but if I want to really let loose occasionally I'm limited. Appreciate all the feedback but will have to think more about what I will do next.............

[Shredhead]

 

 Using the boost in either the MIC2200 or Rotel to achieve this (+14dB) level results in loudness but in reality the sound is hollow and lacking impact. Using the Samson to do the same thing (+14dB) is a night and day difference the sound is full and has much more weight and impact. I know it shouldn't be like this and am starting to think my Rotel's LFE channel is not right but it's how it is I'm not imagining this.

Hollow and lacking impact... you're signal chain is probably clipping it's ass off.  If you get a new Pre and the DCX, you'll have to figure out a way to set your gain stages up correctly anyway so you might as well start figuring it out now.  It's most likely that the Rotel is clipping the Mini's input and that things are getting worse after that.  If you like the Samson better than the MIC2200, pitch the MIC2200 and get to setting up your gain because there's no way around doing this. 

 

Where are your amplifier gains set to during all this? 

[Aj72]

I have gains on the power amplifier(s) set to max.

[Ricci]

Edit: The real limitation I've encountered with the MiniDSP 2x4 is that the numerical precision is insufficient to reliably implement filters below 20-30 Hz or so.

 

I discovered that with one of the first 2x4 balanced way back. Bought the thing simply for the fact it could high pass below 20Hz. Found out it did not behave correctly. Mentioned it on AVS and a couple of other guys confirmed as well. Discovered just how limiting the voltages were with my gain structure. Hated that I had to hook a computer to it. Done with it. I didn't need the <20Hz high pass that bad.

 

 

 I liked that post, but i lied. I LOVE that post..... I have been getting a lot of inspiration lately to pop my DCX back in for some reason. I guess it could just be nostalgia. But the voltage issues that I would run into running XLR balanced from my marantz to the minidsp is just something I don't want to deal with right now, and the DCX would handle all that JUST FINE> 

 

Man I just see all these guys like the OP who have so many units all daisy chained for their sub signal. Most people can't even get the gain structure of 3 pieces of equipment dialed in well let alone 4 or 5! Then you add the fact that one is limited to about 1/3rd to 1/4 the voltage of the others and it is the EQ device? IMHO EQ devices should have huge input and output voltage capability. After all what about all those boosts and cuts? I have always been a fan of keeping things as consolidated and simple as possible. My new signal chain will be losing the DCX's and moving all of the DSP into the amps. Processor to amp...Eventually I may be able to have one consisting of PC straight to the amps but that still scares me a bit. Digital conversion could take place in the amps.

 

AJ72 your signal chain is.

 

AVR - minidsp - Sconvert - Mic2200 - amp.

 

That is 5 units all with adjustable in-out sensitivity. No wonder it doesn't sound right. That is a whole lot of chances for something to be "off" somewhere. Personally I think your Rotel is probably fine. You may also be experiencing some room acoustics issues as well.

[BeastAudio]

I discovered that with one of the first 2x4 balanced way back. Bought the thing simply for the fact it could high pass below 20Hz. Found out it did not behave correctly. Mentioned it on AVS and a couple of other guys confirmed as well. Discovered just how limiting the voltages were with my gain structure. Hated that I had to hook a computer to it. Done with it. I didn't need the <20Hz high pass that bad.

 

 

 

Man I just see all these guys like the OP who have so many units all daisy chained for their sub signal. Most people can't even get the gain structure of 3 pieces of equipment dialed in well let alone 4 or 5! Then you add the fact that one is limited to about 1/3rd to 1/4 the voltage of the others and it is the EQ device? IMHO EQ devices should have huge input and output voltage capability. After all what about all those boosts and cuts? I have always been a fan of keeping things as consolidated and simple as possible. My new signal chain will be losing the DCX's and moving all of the DSP into the amps. Processor to amp...Eventually I may be able to have one consisting of PC straight to the amps but that still scares me a bit. Digital conversion could take place in the amps.

 

AJ72 your signal chain is.

 

AVR - minidsp - Sconvert - Mic2200 - amp.

 

That is 5 units all with adjustable in-out sensitivity. No wonder it doesn't sound right. That is a whole lot of chances for something to be "off" somewhere. Personally I think your Rotel is probably fine. You may also be experiencing some room acoustics issues as well.

 

I never had any issues with the DCX other than EQing below 20hz as well. That and the previously measured rolloff were my two issues but has you have posted, the rolloff isn't as bad as previously thought. I know Bosso has some loopbacks from earlier, but all things considered, the Minidsp throws more issues at the equation than it really solves (for sub duty at least). I might just toss that old bad boy in TONIGHT! Haha.... I very briefly considered selling the unit, but never updated the listing as I would have had some serious seller's remorse had it gone out the door...

[Shredhead]

My new signal chain will be losing the DCX's and moving all of the DSP into the amps. Processor to amp...Eventually I may be able to have one consisting of PC straight to the amps but that still scares me a bit. Digital conversion could take place in the amps.

 

My 2 cents on the DSP in the amps thing is: Not a very good idea.  The amp's PSU is always going to get sucked dry on demanding source material.  That's the same PSU that is running the digital stuff which runs on low voltage and is insanely sensitive.  Probably why all these iNukes with DSP power cycle when they get cranked.  That is obviously worst case but with fluctuating, noisey power to the digital stuff, you can have all kinds of ugly sound anomalies.  If you are never going to push the DSP amps past their halfway point, fair enough but they still are going to have the cheapest ADAC's on the planet.  Some say that doesn't matter and even though I have no data to show otherwise, I think that everything matters. 

 

PC to amps like dood's setup is pretty awesome I think but it's always a terrible pain in the ass for the average user unless you love to figure out software/hardware issues.  Signal chain gain stages are a pain in the crap too if you don't have tools to measure with.  It's like building a sub without a tape measure.  When max gets his disc out, it will be cakewalk for the novice.  You'll only need a cheap multimeter. 

[3ll3d00d]

 

PC to amps like dood's setup is pretty awesome I think but it's always a terrible pain in the ass for the average user unless you love to figure out software/hardware issues.  Signal chain gain stages are a pain in the crap too if you don't have tools to measure with.  It's like building a sub without a tape measure.  When max gets his disc out, it will be cakewalk for the novice.  You'll only need a cheap multimeter. 

 

it's a terrible pain in the ass at times even if you like to tinker!

[Ricci]

My 2 cents on the DSP in the amps thing is: Not a very good idea.  The amp's PSU is always going to get sucked dry on demanding source material.  That's the same PSU that is running the digital stuff which runs on low voltage and is insanely sensitive.  Probably why all these iNukes with DSP power cycle when they get cranked.  That is obviously worst case but with fluctuating, noisey power to the digital stuff, you can have all kinds of ugly sound anomalies.  If you are never going to push the DSP amps past their halfway point, fair enough but they still are going to have the cheapest ADAC's on the planet.  Some say that doesn't matter and even though I have no data to show otherwise, I think that everything matters. 

 

PC to amps like dood's setup is pretty awesome I think but it's always a terrible pain in the ass for the average user unless you love to figure out software/hardware issues.  Signal chain gain stages are a pain in the crap too if you don't have tools to measure with.  It's like building a sub without a tape measure.  When max gets his disc out, it will be cakewalk for the novice.  You'll only need a cheap multimeter. 

 

I used to think that way but I've used enough of the good tour grade amps to change my thinking on it. The big players have it down IMO. They'd get killed on it if they didn't.

 

I didn't mean to suggest that for everyone and definitely wasn't thinking of the Inukes when I did. Seems like that is the only amp anyone uses anymore! I meant that if you can get what you need out of 2 or 3 units in the chain it is likely to be much better and easier to troubleshoot than using 4 or 5 in the chain. Not to mention much less roll off on bottom if you are worried about such things.

 

In my case there ain't no Inukes in the game plan and the cheap parts you mentioned are a notch, maybe 2, above the floor scrap stuff.

[Spacebug]

My 2 cents on the DSP in the amps thing is: Not a very good idea.  The amp's PSU is always going to get sucked dry on demanding source material.  That's the same PSU that is running the digital stuff which runs on low voltage and is insanely sensitive.  Probably why all these iNukes with DSP power cycle when they get cranked.  That is obviously worst case but with fluctuating, noisey power to the digital stuff, you can have all kinds of ugly sound anomalies.  If you are never going to push the DSP amps past their halfway point, fair enough but they still are going to have the cheapest ADAC's on the planet.  Some say that doesn't matter and even though I have no data to show otherwise, I think that everything matters. 

 

PC to amps like dood's setup is pretty awesome I think but it's always a terrible pain in the ass for the average user unless you love to figure out software/hardware issues.  Signal chain gain stages are a pain in the crap too if you don't have tools to measure with.  It's like building a sub without a tape measure.  When max gets his disc out, it will be cakewalk for the novice.  You'll only need a cheap multimeter. 

 

Question: Do you think that because "most" people buy the dsp version?

Because the 6000 without dsp also powercycles when driven hard in 2ch 4ohm load, same as the DSP version.

Seems to be a protection circuit tripped when too high current draw occurs.

In other amps that might be true, but as the inukes without dsp also has this issue I don't think it is because insufficient power to dsp causing restarts...

 

The 3000 and 3000dsp version instead lowers the output some dB after a short time when pushed hard in both channels, a more elegant solution then hard resets and audio loss for some seconds but it seems to be two different solutions to the same problem.

 

The reason for these protections seems to be be very simple, the PSU is probably not capable of supplying enough power for both channels driven to the max.

The amplifier stage seems to be capable enough, but powersupply seems not to be up to par.

 

 

 

Pc directly to amp is something I tinker about a bit, mainly because pc is my only source and I only use AVR for volume control.

But there is the thing I have not solved yet, finding a good and easy to use HTPC remote that has large and good volume buttons,

as easy as the AVR remote in other words, perhaps I can get the AVR remote to work somehow, hmm...

And finally how on earth I should control the volume.

I use Jriver for audio processing but it always runs in the background, processing audio from other applications.

So I have to figure out a way to control volume in Jriver when it is in the background, using the remote.

Ideally I would also need some OSD message showing the adjusted mastervolume so I'm not adjusting blind.

This here needs some tinkering, but it is tempting to slimline the signal chain, signal-noise ratio and rolloff would both benefit from it.

But it will indeed be a major pain...

[3ll3d00d]

Pc directly to amp is something I tinker about a bit, mainly because pc is my only source and I only use AVR for volume control.

But there is the thing I have not solved yet, finding a good and easy to use HTPC remote that has large and good volume buttons,

as easy as the AVR remote in other words, perhaps I can get the AVR remote to work somehow, hmm...

And finally how on earth I should control the volume.

I use Jriver for audio processing but it always runs in the background, processing audio from other applications.

So I have to figure out a way to control volume in Jriver when it is in the background, using the remote.

Ideally I would also need some OSD message showing the adjusted mastervolume so I'm not adjusting blind.

This here needs some tinkering, but it is tempting to slimline the signal chain, signal-noise ratio and rolloff would both benefit from it.

But it will indeed be a major pain...

if jriver is your source then it supports MCE compatible remotes. I have an MCE keymap programmed into my RTi remote and find this works v nicely, it does have an OSD showing the volume as well. A shinier GUI is available via jremote if your prefer the tablet route (though the android version is only at its first release so not everything works yet). 

 

To echo your last point, this is once I got it working of course... that took ages with a few not obvious reasons for failure along the way

[Shredhead]

Question: Do you think that because "most" people buy the dsp version?

I've not heard of the non DSP version acting the same.  Not saying it doesn't happen.  Seems like the worst possible kind of protection circuit to me though.  Besides, I thought those things were voltage limited.  I guess if it mentions a power shutdown for protection in the manual, that's what it is then. 

 

Like I said earlier, I have no data to back up my idea.  I think it's a bad idea because everything I've read about electronics points to how sensitive small signal digital circuits are to noise in power supplies.  If small and large signal digital circuits (or small digital and large analog signal) are combined in one component sharing the same transformer or switching PSU, I would expect the most sensitive small signal circuits in the component to suffer the most since there are obviously problems with the PSU keeping up with demand for the higher voltage parts. 

 

You didn't happen to snap any pics when you did your mod did you?