The Bass EQ for Movies Thread

[Kvalsvoll]

I've been lurking in this forum for some time now.  I've used your BEQ settings in JRiver, so thank you for all your work.  From my perspective, at least, it's not a waste of time  .

 

Thank you for the feedback, and it is interesting to see you use JRiver.

 

I hope the BEQ information provided is compatible and useful with JRiver, the MiniDSP filter parameters should be compatible.  

[Kvalsvoll]

Earlier today, I ran "The Matrix" with BEQ.  Before giving my impressions, ...

 

Thank you for the feedback, interesting to learn what others get out of this.

 

From your impression it seems like the goal of the BEQ is fulfilled - to retreive the lost very low frequency bass.

You say there is not a very huge difference in the sound, other than in certain scenes and sound effects.

And that is very correct, the purpose of BEQ is not to change the tonal balance or try to create sounds that was never in there to begin with.

Most of the bass range will remain unchanged, but when there are low-freq content, it hits louder, heavier, harder, more natural.

 

The level of improvement will depend on the capacity of the playback system - for larger, more dynamically and lower freq capable subwoofers the difference will be greater.

 

Also, it is not quite as simple as measuring the freq response to get the full picture of how the low freqs are reproduced.

At very low f, <<20Hz, the tactile feedback from floor and furniture is very important for perception, and at slightly higher f the sound field velocity-pressure properties plays a significant role.

So, different systems may actually sound and be percieved as different even though they measure exact the same using a mic sine sweep measurement.

Dynamic capacity is also very important, and for ref level full-range playback most realistic systems will compress the signal when large peak signal levels at the very lowest frequency occurs.

[maxmercy]

SME,

 

Thanks for the feedback. This track was what I call 'inconsistent', as not all the effects contained any ULF to begin with. My experiences nearly mirror yours with this film. I'll post up Matrix Reloaded BEQ tomorrow.

 

JSS

[maxmercy]

The Matrix Reloaded:

 

Pre:

 

Post:

 

 

 

LCR and Surrounds:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Highpass Filter 24dB/octave, 2Hz corner

3. Shelf Filter, 17Hz, Q of 0.707, +6dB

4. Shelf Filter, 18Hz, Q of 0.707, +6dB

5. Shelf Filter, 19Hz, Q of 0.707, +6dB

 

LFE:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Highpass Filter 24dB/octave, 2Hz corner

3. Shelf Filter, 18Hz, Q of 0.840, +7dB (x3 filters for total of +21dB)

4. Shelf Filter, 30Hz, Q of 0.5, +3dB

 

The highpasses are necessary due to the huge amount of <2Hz noise present.  This one is haphazard like the first, but improves significantly.  The ships have lots of <20Hz.

 

nanoAVR .xml config file coming soon

 

 

JSS

[maxmercy]

Transformers pre:

 

 

Transformers post:

 

 

 

LFE:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 5Hz, Q of 1.0, gain -3dB (x4 filters for total of 12dB)

3. Low Shelf 27.5Hz, Q of 1.0, gain +3dB (x4 filters for total of 12dB)

4. Low Shelf 50Hz, Q of 0.5, gain of +2dB

 

 

All other channels:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 25Hz, Q of 0.5, gain of +7dB

 

 

For LFE, do not just use one filter with gain/cut of 12dB.  It is simply not as smooth as the summed smaller increments with the biquad filters.  MiniDSP NanoAVR .xml will be posted up soon.  ULF highlight:

 

 

Overall improvement, but 2-3 effects now seem heavy-handed, I think this may have been mixed at a stage capable of at least some ULF, or at least the sound designers had some sealed subs around when they created the effects.  The uber-ULF hit above is purposeful, happens at a specific revealing point, and lends tremendous weight to the scene when it occurs for those that are capable of resolving it...I remember Infrasonic saying that he noticed a huge dynamic pulse when he saw the film after his upgrade from LLTs to all sealed subs....he was right.

 

 

JSS

[maxmercy]

Transformers:Dark of the Moon pre:

Transformers:Dark of the Moon post:

 

LFE:

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 20Hz, Q of 0.707, +5dB (x3 filters for 15dB total)

3. Low Shelf 20Hz, Q of 0.707, +3dB

 

All other Channels:

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 20Hz Q of 0.807, +4.5dB

3. Low Shelf 22Hz Q of 0.807, +4.5dB

4. Low Shelf 24Hz Q of 0.807, +4.5dB

5. Low Shelf 26Hz Q of 0.807, +4.5dB

6. Low Shelf 20Hz Q of 0.807, +4.5dB

7. Low Shelf 40Hz Q of 0.5, +0.5dB

8. Low Shelf 44Hz Q of 0.5, +0.5dB

9. Low Shelf 48Hz Q of 0.5, +0.5dB

10. Low Shelf 52Hz Q of 0.5, +0.5dB

 

Great improvement, with a few sweeps getting much more weight, and lots more heft to transients.

Will post a nanoAVR .xml when time allows.

 

JSS 

[bluescale]

 

2. Low Shelf 5Hz, Q of 1.0, gain -3dB (x4 filters for total of 12dB)

3. Low Shelf 27.5Hz, Q of 1.0, gain +3dB (x4 filters for total of 12dB)

 

Just to clarify, does this mean adding four identical low shelf filters for both of these steps?  Is this beneficial only for miniDSP, or will this be true for all PEQs (as mentioned before, I'm using Jriver)?

[bluescale]

Thank you for the feedback, and it is interesting to see you use JRiver.

 

I hope the BEQ information provided is compatible and useful with JRiver, the MiniDSP filter parameters should be compatible.  

 

You're welcome.  I've had no problems implementing the BEQ filters in JRiver.  Basically, I create a custom zone specifically for the movie I'm going to BEQ, and then create the filters for that movie in the custom zone.  I then use ZoneSwitch to automatically switch to the custom zone whenever I play that movie.

[3ll3d00d]

You're welcome. I've had no problems implementing the BEQ filters in JRiver. Basically, I create a custom zone specifically for the movie I'm going to BEQ, and then create the filters for that movie in the custom zone. I then use ZoneSwitch to automatically switch to the custom zone whenever I play that movie.

Are you using jriver 20? If so, you can assign a DSP config to a specific track now so no need for zone switch for this.

[bluescale]

Are you using jriver 20? If so, you can assign a DSP config to a specific track now so no need for zone switch for this.

 

No, I'm on 19.  I didn't see enough in 20 to warrant an upgrade.

[maxmercy]

Just to clarify, does this mean adding four identical low shelf filters for both of these steps?  Is this beneficial only for miniDSP, or will this be true for all PEQs (as mentioned before, I'm using Jriver)?

 

Yes, it means to use x amount of cascaded filters.

 

If you are using biquad filter(s), like MiniDSP, sox, Audacity, and other software, I have found the filters are smoother and more well-behaved when several are cascaded at lower boost/cut than one larger one, especially at Q's greater than 0.7.  You can try just one big filter, but I cannot guarantee the presentation will be the same.

 

JSS

[maxmercy]

Scott Pilgrim vs the World pre:

 

 

Scott Pilgrim Post:

 

 

This one nearly touches the max allowed by 7.1 content (a single128dB peak) if played back at +7dBRef, to compensate for the -7dB cut.

 

 

 

LFE:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 24Hz, Q 0.945, +8dB

3. Low Shelf 48Hz  Q 0.5, +1dB

4. Low Shelf 11Hz Q 1.0, +5dB (3 filters stacked for total of +15dB)

5. Low Shelf 22Hz Q 0.5, +3dB

 

LCRS:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 25Hz, Q 0.707, +7dB

3. Low Shelf 11Hz, Q 0.939 +5.5dB (4 filters stacked for +22dB)

4. Low Shelf 22Hz, Q 0.5 +3dB

 

 

This track SIGNIFICANTLY improves, and may actually be a little over-the-top, but so is an electro-musical sasquatch and dragon fighting over an audience in an amp vs amp battle of the bands.  It was already terrific, but now has more ULF to show for it.

 

Every battle improves.  Some will surprise.  I will leave it up to you guys to tell me where 128dB is nearly reached.

 

MiniDSP nanoAVR .xml file coming soon.

 

 

JSS

[Kvalsvoll]

You're welcome.  I've had no problems implementing the BEQ filters in JRiver.  Basically, I create a custom zone specifically for the movie I'm going to BEQ, and then create the filters for that movie in the custom zone.  I then use ZoneSwitch to automatically switch to the custom zone whenever I play that movie.

 

I don't use JRiver, so I have no detailed knowledge on functionality, but I assume it is quite superior to a avr+bd-player system, where you now can implement Bass-EQ easily and also make adjustments as you find necessary on-the-fly.

I run a system with XBMC, so I have no audio processing capability on the computer, but still superior as media source.

 

This is the future - avr in software, all processing on the computer.

[maxmercy]

Pacific Rim pre:

 

 

Pacific Rim BEQ:

 

 

This one is SIGNIFICANTLY Improved.  Here are the DSP settings:

 

LCR:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 25Hz, Q 1.13, +6dB

3. Low Shelf 26Hz, Q 1.13, +6dB

4. Low Shelf 27Hz, Q 1.13, +6dB

5. Low Shelf 52Hz, Q  0.5, +5dB

 

LFE:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 18Hz, Q 1.13, +6.5dB (3 filters for 19.5dB correction)

3. Low Shelf 36Hz, Q 0.5, +5dB

 

Surrounds:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 22Hz Q 1.13, +7dB

3. Low Shelf 23Hz Q 1.13, +7dB

4. Low Shelf 24Hz Q 1.13, +7dB

5. Low Shelf 25Hz Q 1.13, +7dB

6. Low Shelf 22Hz Q 0.5, +8dB

 

Pacific Rim is now near 5-Star with this correction, and from the opening scene with 'Axehead', you know it right away.  I highly recommend people try this one.  MiniDSP nano-AVR .xml will be coming when I get time, or program an .xml yourself with the data above and miniDSP's spreadsheet:

 

Biquad Spreadsheet 

 

 

JSS

 

[maxmercy]

Avengers

 

This is the film that frustrated me so much I not only left the AVS thread, but started the data-bass of films here.  I like the film so much, and watching the SW-out speclab trace and seeing sweeps and effects get cut off around 30Hz made me cringe.  This is speculative, but during mixing, I heard that several subwoofers were blown on the mixing stage.  That could very well explain this filter:

 

Avengers Pre:

 

 

With the help of many people here, I set out to get back the ULF that was stripped away, and the BEQ process began to evolve into the DSP correction that it is now.

 

Avengers BEQ:

 

 

So much of this film is now more enjoyable for those with full-bandwidth systems.

 

The correction:

 

LCR:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 19Hz, Q 1.01, +4.9dB

3. Low Shelf 20Hz, Q 1.01, +4.9dB

4. Low Shelf 21Hz, Q 1.01, +4.9dB

5. Low Shelf 22Hz, Q 1.01, +4.9dB

6. Low Shelf 38Hz, Q 0.5, +0.85dB

7. Low Shelf 40Hz, Q 0.5, +0.85dB

8. Low Shelf 42Hz, Q 0.5, +0.85dB

9. Low Shelf 44Hz, Q 0.5, +0.85dB

 

 

LFE:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 18Hz, Q 1.01, +5.5dB

3. Low Shelf 20Hz, Q 1.01, +5.5dB

4. Low Shelf 22Hz, Q 1.01, +5.5dB

5. Low Shelf 24Hz, Q 1.01, +5.5dB

6. Low Shelf 36Hz, Q 0.5, +1dB

7. Low Shelf 40Hz, Q 0.5, +1dB

8. Low Shelf 44Hz, Q 0.5, +1dB

9. Low Shelf 48Hz, Q 0.5, +1dB

 

 

Surrounds:

 

1. Gain -7dB

2. Low Shelf 30Hz, Q 1.24, +6dB (2 filters stacked for 12dB correction)

3. Low Shelf 40Hz  Q 0.707, +6dB (2 filters stacked for 12dB correction)

4. Low Shelf 60Hz  Q 0.707, +6dB (2 filters stacked for 12dB correction)

 

 

It is now the film I expected as a follow-up to TIH.  TIH is still better in every regard, even with the BEQ correction.  There is no substitute for having the studio do a proper full-bandwidth, unclipped mix.  But this is as close as I will get.

 

When I get time, .xml file for nanoAVR.

 

 

JSS

[3ll3d00d]

Pacific Rim pre:

 

PR71.jpg

 

Pacific Rim BEQ:

 

PR71 BEQ.jpg

 

This one is SIGNIFICANTLY Improved. 

 

Pacific Rim is now near 5-Star with this correction, and from the opening scene with 'Axehead', you know it right away.  I highly recommend people try this one. 

 

 

I don't know how useful this feedback will be but I definitely concur with that "you know it right away comment". I only listened to that opening battle and it does indeed completely change the experience. In my room there is a fairly constant low level tactile sensation while the jaegar is strutting around and then some serious impact when things get going. 

 

One question though, do you run a house curve on top of this or is that baked into those settings?

[maxmercy]

I do not run a house curve (not enough headroom under 10Hz to do so), and I only try to get back what I feel was filtered...  It is very hard to explain, but after many attempts at doing this I can come up with a solution for a film in a few iterations without it sounding too bloated, unless the filters are very steep.  Then it is a little tougher.  

 

And yes, from the second that thing hits the Golden Gate, it is a whole different movie.  It still has very droning bass and little variety at times, but it is a much improved experience from a LF standpoint.  By the time the brothers are getting plugged into Gipsy for the first time, you are definitely along for the ride.

 

You have to try Godzilla BEQ if you liked PacRim BEQ.  Both were very difficult to come up with proper BEQ solutions, but were well worth the effort.

 

 

JSS

[3ll3d00d]

I do not run a house curve (not enough headroom under 10Hz to do so), and I only try to get back what I feel was filtered...  It is very hard to explain, but after many attempts at doing this I can come up with a solution for a film in a few iterations without it sounding too bloated, unless the filters are very steep.  Then it is a little tougher.  

I took a look at an assortment of PvA graphs from the various films in the google docs spreadsheet and they invariably have the same pattern, a 10dB (+/- 5dB ish) rise from ~130Hz to 30-40Hz. This is a pretty good description of the shape of the typical house curve, if not a bit stronger than that. The Q to my mind is whether that house curve is actually embedded at mix time as opposed to needing to be added at home? 

[bmoney]

Damn I need to get me a nanoavr!!

[MemX]

Amazing work, thank you for all your hard work

[SME]

I took a look at an assortment of PvA graphs from the various films in the google docs spreadsheet and they invariably have the same pattern, a 10dB (+/- 5dB ish) rise from ~130Hz to 30-40Hz. This is a pretty good description of the shape of the typical house curve, if not a bit stronger than that. The Q to my mind is whether that house curve is actually embedded at mix time as opposed to needing to be added at home? 

 

This pattern has nothing to do with a house curve being embedded in the mix.  To the extent that this may have been done, it is unlikely one can tell by looking at a PvA.  Instead, what you see in the PvA has more to do with the fact that loudness perception drops off rapidly with decreasing frequency in the sub bass range and also the fact that many natural broadband sounds exhibit an increase in level with decreasing frequency.  For example Brown Noise increases at 6 dB/octave as frequency decreases.  From 30-40 Hz to 130 Hz is about 2 octaves, so a 12 dB difference is, in fact, very reasonable to expect.

[3ll3d00d]

This pattern has nothing to do with a house curve being embedded in the mix.  To the extent that this may have been done, it is unlikely one can tell by looking at a PvA.  Instead, what you see in the PvA has more to do with the fact that loudness perception drops off rapidly with decreasing frequency in the sub bass range and also the fact that many natural broadband sounds exhibit an increase in level with decreasing frequency.  For example Brown Noise increases at 6 dB/octave as frequency decreases.  From 30-40 Hz to 130 Hz is about 2 octaves, so a 12 dB difference is, in fact, very reasonable to expect.

I'd forgotten about this thread - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1487271-spectrum-labs-different-slope-than-room-subwoofer-frequency-sweeps.html - which goes round the houses on this subject & seems somewhat inconclusive in the end.

[maxmercy]

Lots of threads at AVS do that. All I try to do is find obvious filters and correct for them. No added curves/boost unless it is an artifact of the process, as IIR filters have limitations.

 

JSS

[Kvalsvoll]

This pattern has nothing to do with a house curve being embedded in the mix.  To the extent that this may have been done, it is unlikely one can tell by looking at a PvA.  Instead, what you see in the PvA has more to do with the fact that loudness perception drops off rapidly with decreasing frequency in the sub bass range and also the fact that many natural broadband sounds exhibit an increase in level with decreasing frequency.  For example Brown Noise increases at 6 dB/octave as frequency decreases.  From 30-40 Hz to 130 Hz is about 2 octaves, so a 12 dB difference is, in fact, very reasonable to expect.

 

This is correct.

 

The purpose of Bass-EQ is to restore the natural balance, with no added artificial boost at the lowest frequencies.

If you run a house-curve with boost at low freqs, because that sounds good on your system, your playback colume, in your room, then a movie with Bass-EQ should sound similar in balance to one that is flat.

[3ll3d00d]

I watched all of PR with the BEQ engaged and my house curve tonight, just a massive difference, quite mental bass. Really nice job done there. I think the mid range was quite bad though, not sure whether that is the track itself being a bit crap or the effect of applying such a strong boost to the low end.

 

I have my new sub turning up in the next week (2 * uxl 18) so will have to give it another go once that arrives. I guess I need to get Godzilla now too.

 

Keep up the good work anyway!