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Bossobass Dave

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Everything posted by Bossobass Dave

  1. Sorry, yes, indeed either trace would be no bueno for a ported system without proper protection. But, even the lowly Behringers are -3dB @ 5 Hz. Yes, I did start over, but the point is that the entire process is tedious and time-sucking in the first place and it simply doesn't have to be. I post, then I have to edit the post for ratings, corrections, additions for every movie. There's no reason to have to edit the URL from Photobucket (or any image host) to post an image on this forum. It's just a ridiculous PITA. Yep, that blip at 27 Hz I asked about is indeed the highest peak in the movie. I have reason to suspect it's in the CC and is clipped (as are other parts of the ST). As I said, I'll be interested to see what you find.
  2. Remember, the gold trace is the signal that feeds the amp. The black trace is at the amps terminals, the signal that feeds the drivers.
  3. Yes, I updated the PvA and the Title Block. Dunno what happened, but it just shows the code to me now. This forum is shit (sorry Kyle & Josh, but I've been a member of many forums and posting on this one just plain sucks).
  4. I posted earlier that I believed the CC was clipped. Glad you caught that. Overall, it wasn't that it downgraded the experience for me, I just have monitoring hardware that typical HT gear lacks, so I wondered if it was a cal thing on my part or the actual soundtrack. Curious thing about these pro sound guys. They always respond to offers to outfit their rooms with flat-to-5 Hz systems with "Hey kid, we know all about the available hardware for low end...". Trouble with that is that the available gear barely gets 20 Hz let alone 5 Hz. So, no... they'll likely never get 5 Hz in house. I just meant that they do indeed read our stuff and that we collectively have more influence than is acknowledged. I know because industry folk have told me exactly that. People discuss subwoofers like the Submersive or the Cap S as though that's the ticket to full BW playback (just like the pro sounders drop a manny's name like Meyer or JBL or Bag End or whatever in the same context) and DIYers are guilty of the same by coupling a stack of sealed "X" brand 18" drivers with a clone amp that's "... flat to 2 Hz...". Having a closer look: The GOLD trace is my new reference signal of the Oppo flagship player-as-pre/pro through my SEQSS signal shaper. The SEQSS has no roll off. The -1dB @ 2 Hz drop is all from the Oppo. The BLACK trace is: Reference signal => "Modded" K12000 "clone" amp (-3dB @ 3 Hz). The BLUE trace is: Reference signal => FP14000 "clone" amp ( -7.5dB @ 3 Hz) The PURPLE trace is: Reference signal => "X" brand digital PEQ => FP14000 "clone" amp (-15dB @ 3 Hz) The RED trace is: "X" brand player => "X" brand AVR SW output => SEQSS => "X" brand digital PEQ => FP14000 "clone (-18dB @ 3 Hz) Now, add the roll off of the subwoofer to the signal chain roll off and that's what the room has to provide through boundary gain to get flat to 3 Hz in-room. The experts can't even wrap their hands around what "room gain" is, let alone predict its influence on the final FR in-room below 10 Hz and I have yet to bump into ANY pro-sounder who has accurate FR measurement capability to 10 Hz let alone below that. For me, I fully understand the influence from boundaries, designed a signal shaper to bring the naked response of my drivers-in-boxes to give a FR that mates with boundary gain with no roll off, found a preamp that's dead flat to 3 Hz and modded the amplifiers to -3dB @ 3 Hz... But, I had to toss the PEQ, design and build my own signal shaper, search for a preamp solution and measure then mod the sub amplifiers whose FR wasn't close to spec. THEN you can examine how many drivers and their relative placement to handle full BW playback at reference level of the summed mono bass signal from 7 channels plus the LFE+10dB signal. Yeah, I know... to most everyone all of the above is like the teacher's voice in a Peanuts cartoon, but the offer stands if any mix houses out there care to be able to play back what they're mixing. I'll fly to wherever and propose a system. Otherwise, talk to the hand with the whatever gear you're using, but please... leave the sound design intact.
  5. Marti, Time and funds are not unlimited for most of us. The heads up available before you rent or buy is the main reason for this forum. I've appreciated the efforts in this regard of those who came before me and I enjoy continuing the effort. Member maxmercy is an acutely capable enthusiast and his efforts are above and beyond pretty much anyone I'm aware of, enthusiast or otherwise. Besides that, the only tool we have is to starve the beast when the sound is below par. If we all rent/buy first, that tool disappears. Once the verdict is in and it's thumbs up, believe me, pah-lenty of folks will buy and enjoy.
  6. TDKR is on page 23 with the link on the 1st page. The scene you're looking for is included. Back to OZ... although some might enjoy looking for white spots below 5 Hz, I found OZ to be unique for 2 main reasons: First, there are one-of-a-kind effects. Most notably is the one in the witch fight scene right before the roof gets damaged. It's def a new algorithm or a blend of same and recorded real event, but it's a brandy-new effect with an other-worldly sound. Uniqueness is big in my preferences. The effects are cutting edge and not repeated throughout the film as a time-saver or to have the end result of beating the unique quality out of it. Second is that the design template looks to have shifted the center of the effects up a decade vs most other good LFE soundtracks, while keeping the ULF foundation. The impact and dynamics are as good as it gets (like the fireworks, which have that transient smack in the face), while the ULF part is enough to add the tactile foundation. This is very close to the real event and mixed just right so that you get everything your sub can give without the feeling that the low end is just ham-fisted for the sake of overkill. I've zoomed the waveform graph to underscore the point. Notice the flat line at the bottom of the waveform (the onset of the firework explosion). It just appears abruptly, centered at 50 Hz with a full BW spread and decays into ULF (to below 3 Hz) where the next explosion occurs, just as abruptly, just as real percussive fireworks do. Finally, when you add top notch upper frequency steering, as in the tornado scene, you're further detached from only focussing on the LFE part of the soundtrack as the steering cues are whirling around your head, and objects are whizzing past from different angles, pulling you deeper into the movie scene. Once in the eye of the tornado, the sound abruptly changes and the video is slowed. This is what sound and video effects and the mixing thereof are all about, IMO. So, although the real hot < 10 Hz stuff is not there, the < 10 Hz stuff is definitely there, you can feel it, it appears with the transient attack and decays afterward, as real event ULF does, and the whole package of audio and video come together as movies rarely do. The fact that Marti showed up is a bonus, but shows me how into his job he is. This one has a half dozen demo-worthy scenes of both audio and video. It's a definite must-add to any collection. Hats off, thumbs up, 5 stars and KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. That's my review, and I'm sticking to it.
  7. Yeah man, you've come a long way and it's great to have another grapher on board. Marti, 5 stars are hard to earn. It'll be based on max's data, by the numbers, but if I had a subjective vote available it would indeed be 5 stars. I'm an instant fan of The Dub Stage and will add it to my grapevine ASAP.
  8. Yeah, you're there except for the intensity tweak and full extension. Here's the fireworks scene compared as well:
  9. DONE! Sorry, my friend... going way too fast today. I'll update the ratings stars when max has the data, but I'm putting a BUY! recommendation in there whether he likes it or not. This soundtrack has it all; surround steering is the best I've heard, the low end has awesome impact with the ULF undertow intact. I LOVED it. The response of my system begins to roll off at 4 Hz, so I suspect you went ALL-THE-WAY down. Thanks a million for chiming in and I hope you get a piece of the disc sales 'cause they're gonna see the DataBass bounce in the following months, mark my words. Were you involved with After Earth?
  10. Hah! They sure look similar, eh? Yeah, I just ran them. I "slowed" your scroll speed by squeezing your graph and did the same with the waveform graph below so that our graphs of the witch fight can be compared. I was running about +3dB hot (just a guess, as I just got the system back together and calibrated roughly to graph this one), my scroll speed was slower (120 vs 80) and my response has a dip from 60-72 Hz, which you can easily see. Pretty awesome. I reckon the purple is right around 0dBFS if I was calibrated properly and not running the subs hot. I think the action is in the CC and it may be clipped. Will be interesting to see if Max can track it down. Also, notice I'm showing deeper response than your direct setup. New amps on the way and the signal chain from player to drivers will be -3dB @ 3 Hz.
  11. Wow, James... Did you scold your wife for not getting a Spec Lab cap of the strike, time stamp and picture? Seriously, imagine the spectrograph of that! And people say we're nuts. A similarly close strike occurred in our back yard a couple of years ago and it sounded like a nuke went off and shook the entire house. No sub I ever heard could come close to the real event! The pic is fine. The secret to better pics is just to try to point the camera straight at the center of the screen. I crop and sharpen them before I drop them into the template, so it's not critical otherwise. Just drop them (jpeg format) into a folder and title them so I know which is for what and send via e-mail. I've been busy testing new stuff so I haven't had the time to tear the wires up to do movie caps and then put everything back into test mode, but I can format yours (and anyone else's) from this computer in my office, no prob. One last thing... We originally, including input from Josh, decided on 3 caps per flick. Since then, I usually use the star rating as my guide. 5 star soundtracks deserve 5 caps, 4 star: 4 caps, etc. The better the soundtrack, usually the more cap-worthy scenes are available. IOW, don't send 20 caps per flick. Trust me, the novelty of wanting to "see" every scene you've been listening to for years will wear off quickly and you'll settle into doing less caps just because it's too much data otherwise. It will save me from having to decide which ones to use and which ones not to use because we generally use 3 caps and don't go over 5 caps per flick.
  12. Hi James, Nice work, young man! I wanted to mention the decimation feature in Audio I/O. Decimation sounds like a bad word and the 1st tendency we might have is to think that the higher the sampling rate, the better. But the decimation in Audio I/O actually refers to the Nyquist frequency, which is 1/2 of the sampling rate. IOW, if your decimation of the SR is 0, the definition of your FFT settings gets spread out to 24k Hz. That means relatively very little res in the first octaves. Here's a comparo of your 1st Hulk cop car smash scene vs my latest settings, zoomed for scrutiny: Here's the same comparo with your decimation tweak: You can count the bars of res. In your 1st cap, there are 12 bars from 0-10 Hz (over 3 octaves) and in the 2nd cap you've jumped to over 40 bars. Mine is around 60 bars. I think your settings are great and show enough res for the casual observer. As Nube and Max noted, raise the FL/CC/FR x-overs to 200 Hz to get all of the LFE channel + redirected bass. As you know, I don't have to worry about that. Speaking of roll off, if you get a chance, can you graph the plane crash scene in WOTW? Curious to see what your result is. I see you mentioned the amount of effort it takes to post these graphs, which it def does. Now, if you want to take a pic of the screen at the beginning of your cap and another at the end of your cap with the time stamp at each pic and send me the caps, pics and time stamps, I'll drop them into my template. It's a lot of work but the format is everything, including the title block and Max's awesome peak hold and rating data. As the years fly by, it will be one helluvan archive. Max, Got the disc (TF2) and finally got a chance to pop it into the new Oppo BDP-105. It played with no probs. You're just too cool for words. When I get a chance, I'll SL the 2 versions and use it as an example of what separates a good ST from a great ST.
  13. Yeah, stupid mistake. I had the Onk's manual EQ selected where I had used one filter and I forgot to switch to no EQ before the Onk measurements. Bummer, because once it was out of the hardware console, it was out for good, but the real result I was looking for was below that. Yeah, James, looking forward to your Hulk Bashes Abomination With Cop Car scene.
  14. I wanted to mention a few things: First, MKT... Bravo! I can't believe how many people ask for screen caps of their favorite scene, but just don't want to download and graph themselves. Virtually no one. Second, about my settings; I discovered that using the decimation setting for both FFT (in FFT Settings Tab) and sampling rate (in Audio I/O Tab) allowed me to increase the resolution in the subwoofer range by magnitudes. Here's a SC of the bridge collapse scene in WOTW using my old settings and the new higher rez setting. I also took the scene MKT showed above from HULK and zoomed in on one of the "footsteps" to show the rez difference: Notice in the zoomed footstep how many bars there are from left to right. The higher rez setting has more than double. Also notice, just as a small nuance, that on the low end, the darkest stripe, with higher rez, you notice that the stripe ramps up in frequency over time. Looking at the lower rez version, the ramping is gone and it's much more pixelated. This is probably only important to me, as I'm way past just looking for overall intensity and how low in frequency the blobs of color are. When you compare digital vs mic'd, as I've done for years, you look deeper and deeper into the comparisons, looking for distortions and generally how differently designed effects look on paper, showing why they sound different, etc. The only way to do that is by increasing the resolution. To be honest, I haven't looked at the settings upload file in my download for a year, so I may have tweaked them since. If I did, it probably is the scroll speed. If you get my settings file loaded into SL and post a graph, I'll be able to tell and help from there. I've been busy at work, doing subwoofer hardware purchasing and I decided to try the Oppo BDP-105 flagship as preamp and dump my old Oppo player=>Onk receiver-as-pre/pro. The main thought was to improve the signal chain integrity, so I did before/after measurements of the subs, close mic and at the LP: I gained around 3-5dB @ 3 Hz, which is pretty huge. The 2nd reason for the change was sound quality across the entire systems bandwidth. I've always dislike the thought of using a receiver as a preamp, and I truly dislike the SQ of the Onk, which I rushed into buying and hooking up because I wanted the Hi-Rez audio NOW. The difference in the sound field coherence, steering and clean factor were so great that I about dumped on the floor. I measured first, close mic and LP, then I listened to 3 of the highest quality recordings I have (and know well), before and after. When I popped in the 1st disc with the new Oppo, really... just unbelievable the difference. I'm not into audiophile subjective prose, just wanna say the difference was not nuance, it was stunning. Anyway, see y'all in Chicago!
  15. Thanks, Max. I'll eventually check it out all the way to the end (maybe), but really... look at that graph! The majority of it occurs ABOVE the typical 80 Hz crossover, above the SW bandwidth altogether for most HTs. I'm with FOH here... I just dunno what to think. Imagine sitting in a mix situation on a big budget flick like this one and sitting through the whole ... 3 friggin' hours... of it and not once saying out loud, "WTF happened to the low end?" Arrrrgh!
  16. Just scanned the Hobbit flick for LFE. I found the rock giant scene, which is the best this 3 hour kiddie cartoon has to offer. The film is filtered at 40 Hz with a virtual brick wall at 30 Hz, turing the rock giants into Godzilla trampling Tokyo on late-night TV through a 2" speaker. My system was purposely run +6dB hot for this cap, so you can imagine how pathetic it might be running flat.
  17. BTW, another reason I don't post much here anymore is that the image links don't work, there's no moderation and I have better things to do than work around a klunky site. If anyone cares to, the links are in my post, so have at it.
  18. Sorry for the hiatus, but I've been too busy to devote the necessary time to graphing, formatting and posting. (Sure wish someone would kick in with that)... Anyway, we just finished watching the HBO flick H&G and there's some unexpected ULF kick in it by a now-familiar mix-chick. Sound design is by a guy who goes back to Apocalypse Now, but this appears to be his first go at sound design. I capped the best scene and did the Title Block, but just wanted to give a heads up for those who may have passed on this one for whatever reason. Owens and Kidman log great performances and the movie, although a bit too long IMO, is worth the rent. Hemingway & Gellhorn: [IMG]http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae206/pointonetech/TitleBlock-HampG_zpsdea97d69.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae206/pointonetech/Hemingway-1_zpsd88d8ad8.jpg[/IMG]
  19. OK, after a quick test, it seems my photobucket links are not working. Until I get it figured out, I'll temp use this other hosting site... Here's Brave [URL=http://www.imagehousing.com/image/1104435][IMG]http://img1.imagehousing.com/81/659b005abd10ccb0651cde966479bc79.png[/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://www.imagehousing.com/image/1104438][IMG]http://img1.imagehousing.com/58/80879ae82eb9688c1bb7054e81b7bf90.png[/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://www.imagehousing.com/image/1104436][IMG]http://img1.imagehousing.com/28/e072ebd8ba6cf90d58e0f6c514a6db8f.png[/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://www.imagehousing.com/image/1104439][IMG]http://img1.imagehousing.com/44/cc641d6a0a72a1cc7e486f2711628872.png[/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://www.imagehousing.com/image/1104441][IMG]http://img1.imagehousing.com/86/10d095cad41c1c7d477e0e26008b9eb5.png[/IMG][/URL] Interesting. Only one of the links worked. I have LOTR trilogy done and updates for several others, but not gonna go through the hassle until I know why these links aren't working. Maybe I'm the only one these links aren't working for? Can anyone else see the pics? Any help would be appreciated.
  20. Can someone tell me why the links to my photobucket library aren't working? This forum is a quirky sod. The scene where the witches house blows up is a full BW spread, high output effect to rival any I've experienced. I know it's just one scene in the movie, but it has me scratching my head on the 2 star level rating...
  21. Brave [IMG]http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae206/pointonetech/BraveTB_zps4e48b3fe.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae206/pointonetech/BravePvA_zpsdd790867.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae206/pointonetech/BraveSL1_zpsce5e4dd1.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae206/pointonetech/BraveSL2_zps3514ad6b.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae206/pointonetech/BraveSL3_zps9989642c.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/ae206/pointonetech/BraveSL4_zpsed94bed8.jpg[/IMG]
  22. Sorry for my disappearance, which is the result of several factors. First, I was coaxed out of semi-retirement to design and draw a very major Demo/upfit/add-on for a past client. I still draw by hand and full plan review drawings for this one are a LOT of work. At the same time, I decided to give the listening space a facelift. New recessed lights, paddle fan, trim, paint, faux fur wainscoting, Klaussner theater seats, LED under-lit riser with remote to change colors, color patter, fade, etc., new solid rosewood furniture and a Mits 82" DLP to replace the Panny 50" plasma. Some pics: We're still continuing down the stairs with patch, prime, paint, and may not stop til we get to the mailbox at the curb.
  23. Here's a flash comparison of Looper to WOTW. Watch the weight shift: gif make I'm not saying ULF dictates the rating or my own personal opinions about the matter. But, extension is one of the weights that determine if a ST gets 5 stars OA and WOTW obviously is a much more demanding ST requiring a subwoofer with an unthinkable bandwidth, displacement and power. That also makes it a much more gripping scene than the ultimate scene from Looper. Most every person who has said that ULF is a non-event has most certainly never experienced it. When the scene from WOTW plays, you freak the hell out. For me, it's fear for my coveted subwoofer system but for every other listener (who is just watching the scene and doesn't know or care about the mechanics) it's truly an eyes-wide-open, shout-obscenities moment. If it's the rented BR vs some other version of BR, then I have to say that the industry needs to be flogged over that nonsense. They should spend less time warning me of the penalties against criminal behavior and more time getting the soundtrack on the disc properly.
  24. Rented Looper on BR and found it to be the same as the DVD. Dunno what I'm missing with this one, but it ain't no way on par with HTTYD, WOTW. I just capped 3 scenes because, although there are more bass scenes, they don't contain much under 30 Hz and weren't worth the effort, IMO. Anyway;;; Looper
  25. I watched Looper the other day. I just switched over to BR with Netflix (nearest Family Video to me is over an hour away). The DVD is as anemic as the rest of the recent spate of comparos I've done, making it useless as a metric. Otherwise, I'd have posted the doc for it by now. I guess they're looking to assure themselves that everyone will replace his current library with BR versions, but just don't know. I may just buy the BR of Loopers, but really this is a crock of excrement that the 2 versions are so different. Oh well, Loopers doc delayed, so stand by...
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