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  1. 6 points
  2. Blowing out the cobwebs today
    6 points
  3. Hi everyone! I'm new to this forum, after beeng very active on different forums here in Norway. Over the years I've built and restored about 200 different cabinets for speakers in my small workshop, and my latest one is the Skhorn. I've also built six Othorns, but these Skhorns are among the largest cabinets I have done. I built three, two for a customer and one for myself. All the parts are cnc'd out of 18 and12mm BB at a friends workshop. I think the build was relative easy compared to the Othorn. I'm going to use the Ipal driver, and will start testing tomorrow with a Crown Itech 6000 amp. I'm looking forward to that!
    5 points
  4. Sorry, not very descriptive in my post lol. We had 5 Skram's out under my Danley Sh-46 for 3 days this weekend, sadly I have a driver stuck in customs so the 6th Skram stayed at home. First time feeling like I had abundant power and amplification to really see what everything could do, used 3x CVR 3002 on subs, 1 skram per channel and 2x Crest Prolite 7.5 bi-amping the Danley's. Really happy how everything's come together, ran flawless all weekend and sounded fantastic with tons of headroom.
    4 points
  5. No offense to RF as they do have some sharp guys but the whole, driver optimized for sealed / vented / BP and don't use it in another alignment, is for the most part antiquated thinking from back before modern signal processing. There are drivers that are better suited to some jobs than others make no mistake, but this is not one of those. Usually the reason you will hear that drivers are not suited for sealed is the qts is too low (IOW too efficient) and without EQ it will be bass shy because the top end gains sensitivity quickly and overpowers the low end without EQ. In this case RF is assuming that these drivers are going to be used for car audio SPL comps and the like and ported will be way louder than sealed and will also handle high power inputs longer. I can see why they would recommend this for their statement competition driver but if the app is not putting up big scores in a Tahoe it's one of the top high power sealed drivers available. It's 2020 and unequalized frequency response is much less of a priority than it was 30 years ago.
    4 points
  6. I was running about 20% down from where the start of the limiters would engage during the headliner slot, so yeah lots of headroom remaining. I feel like I’ve had some breakthroughs this summer with tuning, I can get things sounding real full and impactful without it ever feeling tiring or abrasive, it’s a real pleasure to listen to. Open invite dude, I’m a big fan of alien technology, let’s set up a play date another clip recorded from the mezzanine upstairs, notice the bass warping the video recording…. Some serious pressure going down https://youtu.be/_Y7Y0FqIJfw
    3 points
  7. 2 of each. Osborn Point out in the Cascades (Washington). Getting out there on the forest service roads is a bit of a challenge, especially with a ton of gear, but the vantage is amazing and you can make as much noise as you like way up there. 21DS115-4 in the Skrams. Keystones are loaded with some spare OEM ceramic, stamped basket 18s from a friend at a local, well known audio manufacturer. They're no B&Cs but they sim nicely and have stood up to some abuse that is frankly well past the specs I was given for them. They've got a good motor and great excursion capability. I think the excellent driver cooling of the Keystone design helps them stand up to the abuse.
    3 points
  8. We finally "finished" our two skrams, at least so far, that we could fire them up for the first time, last weekend. Together with our self designd Top (AMT + double 12" in CB, also just "finished") this was one of the most stunningly setups I´ve ever heard. The skrams made the perfect underline for the Tops, wich were designed to produce the cleanest sound possible. It´s absolutely crazy what output just 2 Skeams have, while the Ipals arent´t even moving. Looking forward to build 2 more of them (but the next will be made of the good old BB and be Paintet with duratex. No fancy carbon enhanced popplar plates, epoxy logos or acryll glass front) -Josh, you are my bass-hero
    3 points
  9. Some carpentry sins have been committed due to time constraints and lack of both quality tools and experience, but nothing I don't expect PL and Bondo to hide. It's an intimidating build to do by hand, mostly due to the bracing, but I wanted to do it "right" and I expect the cabinet is going to be stiff as hell. Got some 21DS115-4s on deck and if all goes well they'll be at full flex at an event last weekend in June.
    3 points
  10. I finished a 6Ch amp build made from two Hypex FA123 yesterday. It's a lab amp for speaker testing, so it has all connections on the front. It's not the prettiest and already has a bunch of scratches, but hey, at least it's got cable management..!
    3 points
  11. I don't know if you saw my skram built on page 26 or so, I built 2 of them, made of popplar plywood with a carbon-epoxy layer around to make it stiffer. Then we made the front out of 25mm transparent acryl glass, just to loose the weight savings due to the 10kg (just a wild gues, I forgott the real numbers) of those fronts haha. We didn't put them on a weighting scale yet, but without the heavy front, they would be ridiculously light! So light that we will make a base filled with sand to make sure they dont move more than the drivers do. We also didn't fire them up, but that will happen soon, hopefully... so I cannot say anything about the stiffness and if there is anything hearable compared to our baltic birch skram, but I will male a post as soon as that happened. We will make 2 more of them, without acryl glass front, because we have the materials, but I also have to say that it is a hack of work to prepare all the plates, and also, it is really expensive of course, so i dont think that we will do this again after those next two.
    3 points
  12. Ok. I had a look in HR. It had been awhile. I'd recommend a 3rd order BW at 24Hz or a 4th order LR HPF at 21Hz. This is for operation with all vents open. 4th order LPF adjusted to taste for blending with the mains. Somewhere between 50-120Hz. 70-100Hz is probably what would work for most. The response looks quite good with just the high and low pass added. This is the response with the 21SW152-4. Most of the other recommended drivers are going to be close to this as well. If you want to take it a bit further You can add a single band of PEQ at about 195Hz to beat down the first out of band response spike. This would be best if measured and tweaked accordingly but as a start these specs are probably close enough for gov't work. This would be the final with the HP, LP and single band of cut EQ up top.
    3 points
  13. Hey guys. While not as rigorous as the excellent testing in this thread I put together a little vid doing some light testing and listening comparisons between the chinese CVR branded 3002 amplifier up against a Powersoft K-10. Might be a good option for people looking for some decent performance at a good price point. Maybe you will find it interesting. Ill have this set up for a couple more days so if you're quick and send me a request for ideas for further testing I can try to accommodate
    3 points
  14. Had my next party on Sunday on the beach with my 2x skrams and 2x Martin W3 tops running from an inverter in my Prius from 2pm till nearly 2am, averaged around 1000w into the whole system (including the CDJs and amps and a few LED lights) and used about 5L of fuel in the car. Around 150 people at the peak of the dancefloor, everyone seemed to love it! Definitely need to build 2 more of these things and upgrade to the proper drivers for even better sensitivity to keep up with the tops
    3 points
  15. Skhorns in Norway...Nice. Thanks for the video link. I would use the Eminence or the 21DS115 as alternatives to the 21Ipal in this cab.
    2 points
  16. I've finally built my first self- designed subwoofer. I decided to go for the 15DS115, ~90L net Volume and big ports with 3D adapted flares. The difficult part was actually to make the front small enough that the ports fit within the depth of the speaker, while trying to get as much flare area as possible. A simple 40mm flare radius would have made the front much larger. Tuning was more or less a blind shot. The vents were removable and I tryed 3 different lenghts before they and the back panel were glued. As I ran out of time, I measured just some short sweeps in REW, trying to tell the tuning frequency from the SPL and phase graph and then cut some cm off the vent pipe Tuning should be somewhere at 38 Hz now, but that's just what I can tell from the Rew measurements. I put more than 90 hours into the design, but therefore it is a n enjoyment to put all the parts together and see how perfectly all of it fits. I havn't really tested them to their limit, they are way to overpowered as monitor subwoofer, but I'm looking forward to hear and mwasure what they are capable of. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/frit8jmum8ptds3/AADfJ97ODnKO5Y4Gz1iBtawva?dl=0
    2 points
  17. Sed, Winisd isn't very accurate. It doesn't include inductance effects for subwoofers. It also doesn't include baffle and directivity effects. Sealed cabs are very easy. There really is no tuning. Put it in a 23x23x23 cube and power with a big amp. It is very hard to damage this driver. Look at the testing done here on the systems page. Note the voltage used for the maximum level output sweep. Pick an amp that can provide this voltage or under. Done.
    2 points
  18. This is the whole rig for now, I don’t think I’ll be adding anything more until we see what the future looks like…. Fucking covid. It’s perfectly balanced as is, I’d need more danley’s to keep up to more Skrams so the next leap would be expensive Haha. first time running it in a block like this, we melted some faces off, bass for days holy shit https://youtu.be/Bp4opVAjbZ4
    2 points
  19. Yeah it's heading back toward lockdown quickly here. I've already had a tour (performing not doing sound) canceled and a few spot dates with other bands that are likely to be canceled. Tour was billed right when things opened back up and reversed direction almost immediately. I've got a lot of friends who work as stage hands, or sound engineers and it's been devastating for them. It's a tough time to be a performing artist, bar or sound provider. Hell any type of person who makes a living from public gatherings.
    2 points
  20. Gig report- very impressed. I didn't have time to do proper measurements/EQ with a mic so I fiddled around in hornrep ahead of time to get a phase match with the keystones. Landed on delaying the Keystones 5.8ms with a phase invert. Based on the rich sound, coverage, and amp levels vs output, I think that must have been reasonably close. We had some issues maintaining voltage with the cable runs and generator capacity, and I was quite conservative running the NX6000 into them since I haven't set up proper limiting, but it was more than enough to prove these cabs are quite capable. Got the same excited feeling of bringing the system up to a brand new level as when I put together the Keystones. Of course, now I've got the itch to pair them with a Powersoft amp...
    2 points
  21. Thank you guy's for the awesome inputs, my apologies for the late reply. Much appreciated for side by side comparison of the ipal and nsw Ricci. Although the NSW offers the best bang for the buck, I might try an external series ipal setup, albeit with some thick ass wires. 6 is kinda pushing it for that amp, even with the 152s...specially if I want the damping factor to remain high Been keeping this box on the dl but it's basically similar to the th18 but slightly modified for 21'' woofers, code named the hornicator, I haven't done any measurements on it yet but it sounds hella good and moves some serious air with the 152 and my buddies crappy Inuke, but giving the mouth and 24ft cubic size, I think the nsw or ipal would destroy in this enclosure...weight? Heavy
    2 points
  22. My recommended driver for these is the Eminence NSW6021-6.
    2 points
  23. Finally got time to spraypaint my one remaining SKhorn today. I used Warnex paint and an inexpensive HVLP spray gun. After to layers it lookes pretty ok I guess. Tomorrow I will turn it over and finish the cabinet. After this and finishing the build, I will also glue some acoustic foam in the back chambers, as Ricci suggested.
    2 points
  24. The B&Cs aren't too much more for the actual driver in AUD, its the shipping that's the killer, I can buy a whole extra Dayton for less than the price of shipping for 4x 21s of any kind that I've found so far. Whereas that store seems to already have Australian stock of the Daytons and shipping is basically free. @chrapladm me and a friend in Melbourne are planning to get 2 each and hoping to spend around $7-800 or less per driver including shipping. He's just finished his first cab, followed the plan a lot more closely than my first 2 so will be good to compare!
    2 points
  25. Moving up and down stairs to roundover, sand, fill any tear out, sand and paint was a bit of a chore, requiring assistance of a hand cart, ratchet straps and a strong volunteer. Also, the number of good weather days were limited, coupled with working away from home a lot meant that I could not spend as much time working on these as I would have liked at a time. Second one is partially assembled.
    2 points
  26. I've noticed something very interesting I wouldn't have believed was true when experimenting with my Hypex amps yesterday. These amps needed to be "broken in" with a high level signal or they'll run at unusually high distortion. Sounds like snake oil to me, but heres what I've seen from the data: General info: -Sweep of the audio interface max 0.005% THD 100Hz-24khz (sweep went to 48khz) -THD somehow off rising to 1% at 20Hz (has been RMA'd once, guess it's still slightly damaged) -THD numbers in the following paragraph are mostly constant through the frequency range, so I'm picking a 1khz reference -Load is resistive; no water for cooling because heat dissipation is 100W max. Step by step results: -10V @ no load: 0.003% THD -10V @ 8R: 0.048% THD -10V @ 4R: 0.109% THD -30s 200Hz signal @ 20V into 4R -10V @ 8R: 0.004% THD -10V @ 4R: 0.01% THD Results were verified multiple times (like multiple sweeps @high THD and then multiple sweeps at low THD after 'break-in'). Results were the same for all 6 amps (with 3 channels each) I tested, but some didn't have high THD because I've had them in use before already. Results were the same after I let the amps cool off (always low THD after being 'broken-in'). Results were the same the next day. Whatever happened here, driving the amp modules to their maximum once lowered overall distortion by an order of magnitude (forever?). Maybe someone can help tracing the issue. Whatever generates the current in the amp is affected by this, so it might be the transistors. Might be the solder heating up and changing its properties (but I don't think the amp is getting hot enough for that; at least I hope so because that would be approaching 200°C). Might be the power supply. I'm not an expert in this subject, but I believed that electronics components don't change (excpet caps with age), as long as they're not hardcore overdriven and like literally melting.
    2 points
  27. Hey Josh. Curious if you would be willing to make a recommendation for high and low pass filters with recommended slopes your Skram design. It’s been a while since I’ve had mine out with the pandemic and all, but I’m planning a day at our studio tomorrow to get everything plugged in and spend some timing tuning and tweaking. Planning to get the measurement mic out and spend some time dialing in the system so I don’t get rusty haha. I’ve been happy with the setting I’ve been running which I don’t remember off hand but I’ve got some different amps on hand so willing to try some new things. Another goal for tomorrow is to try and get some comparison data between the Cvr 3002’s and the powersoft k-10.
    2 points
  28. As far as testing goes. There is nothing happening right now and for the immediate future. I've had to turn away a bunch of companies and projects since this time last year and I'm still sitting on a whole summers worth of testing from well previous to that. I'm not planning to be done completely, but after 10 years my priorities and other life goals have shifted and I can't find the hundreds of hours to put into testing, and publishing every year, like I once did.
    2 points
  29. Don't know if this video (in Norwegian) has been shared already - I presume not due to the different-language "barrier" - but it shows what can only be the Skhorn with IPAL drivers at some Norwegian fella who specializes in building (and buying) horns speakers, big subs and the likes. He describes the Skhorn sound as (freely translated) "effortless, dynamic and airy." Attributes any serious (true) audiophile should aspire to from subs, I gather, but in reality few would ever get to experience their sound for, well.. obvious reasons when speaking of audiophiles in general. I take it the Skhorn is designed with the B&C 21SW152 and/or its IPAL sibling in mind?
    1 point
  30. Very happy to have the Skrams outdoors again, always makes me smile hearing that clean tight bass https://youtu.be/bNxhrqLsKME
    1 point
  31. Thanks for the info Ricci, I'll go for the 8ohm option as LaVoce only has 8ohm haha Regarding the pieces, yes I meant dsl's files. So actually this was a direct question to him. Anyway if they are not critical as you said I suppose that my guessings are correct. I'll upload some photos when the build begins
    1 point
  32. Spent a full weekend ripping wood for a pair of cabinets. Plan is to augment or eventually replace a pair of Keystones. I've always been a TH fanboy but I trust that if Ricci thinks bandpass cabs are the business then I'm eager to give it a go. Looking forward to that sweet 30hz.
    1 point
  33. Finally got everything up and running. 8 pa460s (2 boxes - each has 4 pa460 in a 2x2 dual opposed sealed box). 6 HT18s sealed up front from 0-60hz. 8 PA460s sealed from 10 to 110hz 2 Nsw6021 skrams 31 to 110hz Bass uniformity across all 7 seats improved a bit. If I were starting from scratch, I'd do 16 pa460s sealed and 4 Nsw6021 skrams. Crazy how these pa460s can only be 70ish bucks shipped with bulk pricing and 15% coupon discount. Integration all done via a 10x10 minidsp.
    1 point
  34. I've built subs out of cheaper hardwood ply and MDF before. The cheaper ply works but is more vulnerable to damage than BB ply, this can to an extent be made up for by rounding (and filling if there are voids) the corners and using a tough coating. MDF is horrible to work with, heavy and vulnerable to damage at any exposed edge. I would use cheaper ply rather than MDF. I don't use screws I use a brad nail gun and glue, this way you can build a cab very quickly!
    1 point
  35. BB holds screws better as well. In general I avoid MDF or HDF when possible, especially on larger cab sizes. For things like small monitors and car subs it isn't a bad choice to save some money.
    1 point
  36. I wouldn't go for a lightweight plywood like that for a design like this. Think of the cabinet like a musical instrument, the stiffness and density of the cabinet will contribute to the sound in many ways. If the cabinet can vibrate and resonate with the driver movement it will color the sound coming from it and you may not be happy with the outcome. If you can't do baltic birch you could get away with mdf as it quite solid and dense, its pretty heavy though.
    1 point
  37. Been really busy... Have one box glued and sanded. Need to get 2nd box going. Hopefully I can get some time soon
    1 point
  38. A nice video on the topic by Bennett Prescott, B&C US sales manager:
    1 point
  39. Perhaps those are Aussie dollars which are 1 : 0.76 USD (currently). Even still! @h3idrun: Tthat driver should do pretty well. Dayton also has a new 21" with similar motor and price, albeit 8 ohm vs. 4 ohm impedance. I don't see it listed at your store, but you might contact them and ask if they are planning to stock it soon: https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-PSS555-8-21-Pro-Subwoofer-with-4.5-Voice-Coil-8-Ohm-295-050
    1 point
  40. This is pretty close to my findings too, I ran 80hz on bass music and 100hz on house/techno, I'll probably try 110hz next time for a little more punch. 12db LR for both, I haven't needed a high pass yet as I've running bugger all power so far.
    1 point
  41. No stress, I can dig through it again. I did play around again a bit over the last week and I think to my ears at least I still like 100 to 110 hz crossover for most music styles. If I drop it down to 80-90 I think it sounds a bit better for stricktly bass music, but for house and techno, rock etc I prefer it a bit higher. Then again its harder hearing it proper indoors. Depending on our pandemic situation when summer rolls around I'm pretty keen on heading out to crown land for a number of days just to work on tuning.
    1 point
  42. I'm in Adelaide. I have a pair of 21SW152's sitting on a shelf still waiting for me to build my Skrams. As long as you dont mind the long wait for shipping times there are better options that PE. But if you want it asap then PE is probably your best option.
    1 point
  43. Thanks SME. I'm just editing a follow up to the previous video. This time I was able to run the cvr up to 48 volts driving 4x 21sw152 at a 2 ohm load. No appreciable difference between it and the k10. I have no illusions that the cvr can hang with the k10 all the way to max power, but it can drive 4 21's on a 2 ohm load to pretty fun levels very well. Ill post the vid when its ready
    1 point
  44. Report on the soft clip limiter: test set to 25W 4R (10V in theory), generator at 1kHz -Protect light starts flickering around 11V (30W) but it won't go any higher than that (long term) -attack time was ~5ms when overdriven by 10db followed by a gradual roll off to the target over 50ms -when overdriven by 20db it stays in hard clipping for 30ms then ramps down to the target in less than 1ms -even 20db hot the target is undistorted -10Hz sinve was butchered a bit but didn't look too bad -distortion just below limiter as expected (between 0.001 and 0.003% in my sweep) -3db into limiter 2.5%THD@20Hz; 0.4%@100Hz; 0.04%@1k; 0.004%@10k -10db into limiter the values multiply by 3, values stay the same for 20db+
    1 point
  45. I have had 2 of these for about 8 years now. I drive them with a used emotiva small 2 channel amp. The cabinets are not small in height or depth, but the width is very manageable. They produce excellent quality bass at SPL levels that are more than enough for the 13'x15'x9' small office they are in.
    1 point
  46. ha ha I think I saw your FB post in speaker freakers
    1 point
  47. after 4.5 months of preperation and four 12h days for assembly, we finished our second skram, the first one world wide with an acryl glass front? We didnt measure the weight yet, but although the front has about 12kg, it feels a lot lighter than our prototype made of birch, as we used popplar instead. It also feels rock solid due to the carbon-epox enhancement on all surfaces and edges, but the measurements will show if the light material has any disadvantages...
    1 point
  48. Some thoughts I've been having today about tuning. It's almost pleasant enough up here in Canada to get into the backyard for some more measurements and tuning. I have run my Skrams for a few shows now using a 120hz crossover and I haven't been able to fault it. These shows however have all been indoor so I am looking forward to more outdoor testing to get a better feel for what sounds best. I want to build a hand full of presets using a range of crossover points so I can more easily switch between profiles for better A/B listening and testing. Another thing that is on my mind is what would be the most preferable dsp corrected freq response shape for the Skrams. The raw response out of the box has a gently rising shape to it, but up to this point I have been using some simply parametric eq to make the response basically flat. I've been reading around trying to find info on this to see if there is a preferred shape to the response curve and I haven't found it talked about much. It "seems" that a flat response is most common in the examples I have come across but I have also found some examples where the response is hottest in the low frequencies with it tailing off towards higher frequencies. Here is an example from the 18sound website for one of their DIY cabinet designs for a dual 21" manifold type subs. First picture show the raw response, second picture shows their recommended corrected response. https://imgur.com/gallery/LYq4N8u https://imgur.com/gallery/kReqJkN What would determine a manufacturer, or even a DIY cabinet builder to settle on a final response shape? Is it purely based on what sounds best through lots of experimentation? Or is there something more specific at play. Any thoughts or feedback? What kind of corrected settings are you using for your Skrams? I would also be interested in what everyone is using for a hp on their skrams as well. I've been using a 24db BW at 28hz on mine but for events where its all techno or psy I usually bump it up to 33-35hz as it tends to clean up the sound a bit where those low frequencies are not really needed as much
    1 point
  49. The article largely misses the point and is mostly audiophool drivel. The article it links to is substantially worse: https://pitchfork.com/features/oped/9667-drop-the-bass-a-case-against-subwoofers/ The question of whether a subwoofer is needed really depends on the system design. If the speakers and amps are adequate for reproducing the lowest frequencies and the room placement is not problematic, then music can be enjoyed without subs just fine. For that matter, movies can be enjoyed without subs being that most AVRs will redirect LFE to the mains, especially using beefy speakers like JTRs. But that's not what the articles are really talking about. The articles are arguing that music doesn't need reproduction of frequencies in the sub range, particularly below 50 Hz. That argument falls apart very rapidly when one considers the results of Harman's blind speaker listening tests. Bass extension has a major impact on blind listener preferences of speakers. Even though there may be very little content below 50 Hz in many sources of music, the content that's there has a substantial impact on the listening experience. This is not limited to electronic music either. That's not to ignore the fact that too much sub can harm the rest of the sound, but that's true of any frequency range. I actually agree that the mid-range is most important for rock-and-roll music, as it is for almost every other genre of music. Yet, that's no excuse to ignore the treble and the bass, which still matters for rock-and-roll and all other kinds of music. The idiocy of these kinds of articles is that they dredge up anecdotes in which the subs or low-end was obviously mis-configured and out of balance to argue that low frequencies are inherently bad and don't belong as part of the reproduction. The irony is that the kind of people pushing these arguments often use speakers that sound like garbage in the mid-range. Zu Audio? Perhaps they should just listen with the amps switched off to save them from hearing the dreadful mid-range! And therein lies the sad truth, which is that the quality of sound when using subs depends substantially on the sound quality in the rest of the spectrum, especially the 50-500 Hz range. A great many speakers have deficient output through most of that range, which is crucial for reproduction of a variety of bass instruments. To integrate subs with such speakers requires turning the subs down so much that there's not much point in using them, or else one hears a lot of boom boom boom from subs that are unbalanced relative to the higher harmonics. So by all means bring on the subs, but don't neglect the rest of the spectrum! Sadly, most speakers simply don't cut it, and that's true of almost every offering targeted at the "audiophile".
    1 point
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