maxmercy Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 bejt, You are perfectly set up for BEQ. No issues at all running both. Yes, enter the filters as above and gain should be set to -4dB on each channel and you are set. Enjoy and report back your experiences with the film pre and post BEQ. Mike, JRiver should be able to do the filters, other people with JRiver do. Just don't forget the -4dB gain, or things will clip. Report back what you think of the film with BEQ. JSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 OK Max. At least I know it can be done. But now I have to learn how and what to do . And if it can be applied to each movie independent of each other. Now, when you say -4db or things will clip, what does that mean. If I put it -3 0r -2 that is a no no. But -5 or -6 will be OK? I hope I can figure this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 The correction filters increase the bass level on the track. Without reducing the overall level by the specified amount, the filters will clip the original audio data, and the -4dB for Avengers 2 is how much it should be attenuated so that the 18+dB boost in low frequencies doesn't clip the track in any channel by hitting 0dBFS digital. JSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 There are other folks that have done BEQ in JRiver, some have even posted on this thread. JSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 OK. That. makes sense. Maybe some one can make a sticky on how to do this with Jriver, like there is a sticky when using that other device, if there are people who use Jriver. I just want to know that this can be done for individual movies. I would really like to try this so I can report back what I find. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 OK. That. makes sense. Maybe some one can make a sticky on how to do this with Jriver, like there is a sticky when using that other device, if there are people who use Jriver. I just want to know that this can be done for individual movies. I would really like to try this so I can report back what I find. Thanks I use Jriver and have applied these sorts of filters before. You just add them to the peq block in the DSP window. I can lost an example later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 I use Jriver and have applied these sorts of filters before. You just add them to the peq block in the DSP window. I can lost an example later. That would be great. I learn better by seeing an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 LFE: 1. Gain -4dB 2. Low Shelf 15Hz, Q of 0.94, +6dB 3. Low Shelf 15Hz, Q of 0.94, +6dB 4. Peak 19Hz, Q of 2, +6dB This is a v steep LS that has some overshoot at the top and bottom of the shelf isn't it? I guess this is because you wanted a steeper rise from the shelf? A low shelf with this Q is not supported directly by jriver. It's low shelf is described in terms of Q but, as I understand it, it really mean S (shelf factor) and it limits this to a max of 1. The formula to convert Q to S is listed in http://www.musicdsp.org/files/Audio-EQ-Cookbook.txtand is 1/Q = sqrt((A + 1/A)*(1/S - 1) + 2) where A = 10^(dBgain/40) If you solve for S you get 1/((((1/Q)^2-2)/(A+1/A))+1) which means you'd need jriver to accept a value of ~1.7 for the LS If you go with a shelf with a S of 1 (roughly a Q of 0.707 in the minidsp terms) and increase the gain to 6.2dB then you get the following; black is your version, brown is what jriver can support. I suppose this is close enough? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 The overshoot on the upper end is handled by the very low slope shelf filter after it. Had no idea JRiver couldn't support Slopes of more than 1. Maybe a new beta release can if you ask the development team? The correction differs some, but will help. The correction will have some lumps in it from 10-30Hz, but should be decent. Give it a try and report back. JSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 That would be great. I learn better by seeing an example. All of these are entered via the PEQ block in DSP studio. Note that if the PEQ block is before room correction then subwoofer means the LFE input channel, if the PEQ block is after room correction then subwoofer means the physical subwoofer output channel. You want the PEQ block to be *before* room correction. 1. Gain -4dB Click add/adjust volume Enter -4 Select subwoofer from the channel dropdown 2. Low Shelf 15Hz, Q of 0.94, +6dB 3. Low Shelf 15Hz, Q of 0.94, +6dB As per the previous post, this is not directly supported in jriver so you have to approximate. Click add/adjust low frequencies (low shelf filter) Enter frequency 15 Bandwidth 1 Gain 6 Select subwoofer from the channel dropdown Repeat 4. Peak 19Hz, Q of 2, +6dB Click add/adjust low frequencies (low shelf filter) Enter frequency 19 Bandwidth 2 Gain 6 Select subwoofer from the channel dropdown You can now just repeat the same procedure for the next block, just choose the relevant LCR channels from the channel dropdown instead of subwoofer. EDIT: see next post, the filters might need fine tuning for use with jriver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 The overshoot on the upper end is handled by the very low slope shelf filter after it. Had no idea JRiver couldn't support Slopes of more than 1. Maybe a new beta release can if you ask the development team? The correction differs some, but will help. The correction will have some lumps in it from 10-30Hz, but should be decent. Give it a try and report back. JSS ah right, yes I see what you mean red is, I think, the sum of your LFE filter cyan is using 2 LS with Q=0.707 plus 2 peaking filters; 1 at 17Hz, Q=1.5 and gain +5 & the other 12Hz Q=1.5 and gain +1 blue is cyan + another peaking filter at 35Hz, Q=1.5, gain -0.8 I don't think I'd recommend using that 19Hz peaking filter with the jriver shelf filter, it results in a fairly prominent notch in the shelf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 OK, This is way beyond me at this point. I will stick to whatever I get on from the disk. A man's got to know his limitations. I can say it because it's about me, but I am a dummy when it comes to this part. Some of what was posted above did not even look like English to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 OK, This is way beyond me at this point. I will stick to whatever I get on from the disk. A man's got to know his limitations. I can say it because it's about me, but I am a dummy when it comes to this part. Some of what was posted above did not even look like English to me. I didn't mean to scare you off!! To enter the filters in jriver is just those pics I showed of the jriver DSP. It is literally just clicking a few buttons. Ignore the discussion of exactly what filters to enter. It is a shame jriver doesn't support a simple way to import a filter set as that would make it way easier. BTW http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=99096.0 is the current thread that collects various eq related features that people want in jriver. Feel free to post there to show support for some of those requests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 I didn't mean to scare you off!! To enter the filters in jriver is just those pics I showed of the jriver DSP. It is literally just clicking a few buttons. Ignore the discussion of exactly what filters to enter. It is a shame jriver doesn't support a simple way to import a filter set as that would make it way easier. BTW http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=99096.0 is the current thread that collects various eq related features that people want in jriver. Feel free to post there to show support for some of those requests. Don't worry about it. I found the section and all the filters in Jriver. It's just looked so complex and way out of my league. Plus, it looked like they were global settings. I would not want that. I would just want to set it for one movie and have the filters tied to that one movie then move on to another movie and so on. I did not see how to make it so I could do that. If I have to set up the filters, for each movie independently, every time I want to watch that movie. For ex, One of the movies I have is Avatar. Let's say I do the filters for that. I want the filters to be permanently saved for that movie so every time I watch that movie, I wouldn't have to do the filters again. The let's say I want to do Man of Steel. I don't want to have to undo the filters I did for Avatar just to do Man of Steel and again, it would be great if the filters stayed with Man of Steel every time I watched it. Does that make sense? I don't know how to tie a specific filter to a specific movie and keep it with that movie. Or even if that can be done. I guess that's my point. I hope all that made sense . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Don't worry about it. I found the section and all the filters in Jriver. It's just looked so complex and way out of my league. Plus, it looked like they were global settings. I would not want that. I would just want to set it for one movie and have the filters tied to that one movie then move on to another movie and so on. I did not see how to make it so I could do that. If I have to set up the filters, for each movie independently, every time I want to watch that movie. For ex, One of the movies I have is Avatar. Let's say I do the filters for that. I want the filters to be permanently saved for that movie so every time I watch that movie, I wouldn't have to do the filters again. The let's say I want to do Man of Steel. I don't want to have to undo the filters I did for Avatar just to do Man of Steel and again, it would be great if the filters stayed with Man of Steel every time I watched it. Does that make sense? I don't know how to tie a specific filter to a specific movie and keep it with that movie. Or even if that can be done. I guess that's my point. I hope all that made sense . It can be done. The feature to load/save DSP was introduced in MC20 and is described as NEW: DSP presets can be loaded per file by setting the DSP field (the list is from Load/Save on DSP Studio). This means you can enter it once, save it and then load it on a per film basis. Alternatively you set the value in the DSP field in your library. However if you do it this way, bear in mind that it is implemented in a slightly crap way atm, it loads it when you play it but doesn't unload it back to a default state when you stop. This means you'd have to update the DSP field on every other track with your default setup. Whether this works for you depends on your setup, I think it plays particularly badly with multiple zones for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 So are you saying that when I am done watching one of the movies with the filters, and I want to watch another movie without a filter, I have to go in and take out the filter? Booo. That seems like too much work for me. Maybe I am being to critical, but I can't see myself doing that. You said, "however if you did it this way..." What is the other way? That every movie is filtered all the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 So are you saying that when I am done watching one of the movies with the filters, and I want to watch another movie without a filter, I have to go in and take out the filter? Booo. That seems like too much work for me. Maybe I am being to critical, but I can't see myself doing that. You said, "however if you did it this way..." What is the other way? That every movie is filtered all the time? you have 2 choices 1) manually load and unload the DSP configuration before & after watching the film 2) set the DSP field on every film in your library Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 you have 2 choices 1) manually load and unload the DSP configuration before & after watching the film 2) set the DSP field on every film in your library For this option, you don't mean every single movie I have in my library right? Because that would be insane. The first option is a little better, but I don't know, it still seems like a pain. I would have to look up, or keep a list of all the movies that need changes close by and do it every time, That seems tedious as well. I don't know if I am that dedicated. I mean, all of these movies don't sound horrible because I have that Crowson that goes down to 5hz so no matter how low the bass is recorded, I will still feel it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 For this option, you don't mean every single movie I have in my library right? Because that would be insane. yep it would and it is see https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=91434.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Nope, neither of those are going to happen. I am not that obsessed about it. Even the first one seems excessive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kvalsvoll Posted October 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Yes, this can seem like a lot of work to do to just watch a movie, and I have to admit I do not bass-eq every movie I watch, even if there could be a significant increase in experience due to the improved sound. What I was hoping for is more awareness, so that content providers eventually see the problem, and start making better products with more consistent and proper sound quality, because that is the real solution and bass-eq would become obsolete. I believe better sound would benefit the providers due to increased sales and interest in their products. To make that happen requires knowledge - producers will never know what is missing until they experience the difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Nope, neither of those are going to happen. I am not that obsessed about it. Even the first one seems excessive. The jriver DSP interface certainly has some ease of use issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluescale Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Hi Mike. I use JRiver to implement BEQ filters, and it works really well. Some movies, like Pacific Rim and The Avengers, are a completely different experience with BEQ (assuming you have a sub that can dig deeper than 30 Hz).I create a zone for each film I want to BEQ, and then use the zone switch feature in JRiver to automatically switch zones when I start the move. I'm not near my HTPC right now, and I've had quite a bit to drink (celebrating the Cubs' victory in the NLDS against the Cardinals), but if you're having a hard time figuring out how to implement it, I might be able to put together a short HowTo in the next couple of days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluescale Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 It can be done. The feature to load/save DSP was introduced in MC20 and is described as NEW: DSP presets can be loaded per file by setting the DSP field (the list is from Load/Save on DSP Studio). This means you can enter it once, save it and then load it on a per film basis. Alternatively you set the value in the DSP field in your library. However if you do it this way, bear in mind that it is implemented in a slightly crap way atm, it loads it when you play it but doesn't unload it back to a default state when you stop. This means you'd have to update the DSP field on every other track with your default setup. Whether this works for you depends on your setup, I think it plays particularly badly with multiple zones for example. Unless I'm misunderstand what you're saying, I think you've over complicating zones. I simply created a default zone that applies to all films, another zone that applies to all music, and then zones specifically for each film I BEQ. In my default rule, I tell it to apply to all video file types unless it matches one of the other zones. The only caveat is that each time you create a zone, you have to update the other zones to ignore it. It might sound a bit complicated if you haven't done it before, Mike, but it only adds about a minute to my time to create and update the zone rules each time. Like I said in my previous post, when I've got a little bit more time, and a little less alcohol in me, I'll see about creating a simple primer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ll3d00d Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 I was referring to the use of zones to output to different locations and/or devices. It is not so much me over complicating zones as zones being able to be used for some relatively complicated use cases, it can be nice to have options though. BTW apparently that dsp preset approach wasn't working properly for video anyway, fix in the next build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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