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Eminence NSW6021-6

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USSpeaker has them listed for $749, I may snag a pair as they seem to be an upgrade over the RCF LF21N451 I still run in my dual 21s.

After my B&C/18 Sound/RCF showdown that resulted in the N451 years ago, great to see another contender. Also great to see Eminence respectably jumping into the ULF fray.

 

Oh, hey guys :)

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On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 2:17 AM, WiSounds said:

USSpeaker has them listed for $749, I may snag a pair as they seem to be an upgrade over the RCF LF21N451 I still run in my dual 21s.

After my B&C/18 Sound/RCF showdown that resulted in the N451 years ago, great to see another contender. Also great to see Eminence respectably jumping into the ULF fray.

 

Oh, hey guys :)

Damn bro...It's been a long time.

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After doing some modeling in Hornresp on my own cab design, it looks like the IPALs are still a hair above this driver. The latter costing quite a bunch less, having basically the same weight and about half an inch less mounting depth makes it very attractive thou. What I like the most is that it seems to boost the 30-50Hz region in my cab while still modeling pretty smoothly. This is a great addition to the market. It's about 2/3 of the way from the 21DS115 to the 21IPAL imo, judging from the models.

Can't wait for the other manufacturers to up their game in the 21" market. A ~2.5KW 25mm Xmax low inductance driver under 1 grand would be heaven, still kind of realistic and a serious statement.

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Is your modeling with constant voltage or constant wattage?  Depending on your amps, you might be able to get more useful output into the eminence.

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35 minutes ago, SME said:

Is your modeling with constant voltage or constant wattage?  Depending on your amps, you might be able to get more useful output into the eminence.

Constant voltage modeled at 1W into Znom for voltage sensititivy tests and amp limited to 10KW for the maximum output models. 10KW into two series IPALs should be achieveable with a K20 (one channel) or X4L.

This cab is the type of cab that doesn't depend on amps, the amps depend on the cab 😅 I'm very excited about it but I won't spill the beans before I haven't built a prototype and actually measured it. The model uses Ricci's tricks to get to the accurate SKHorn simulation and uses complex inductance, so I tried everything to get it as reliable as possible and it looks damn nice. Just need more drivers, more free time and lots of plywood. Already got the CNC 😁

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On 9/3/2019 at 8:39 PM, peniku8 said:

This cab is the type of cab that doesn't depend on amps, the amps depend on the cab 😅 I'm very excited about it but I won't spill the beans before I haven't built a prototype and actually measured it. 

Looks somewhat similar to a design I had a few years ago but ended up going in another direction. IF it's the one I've seen a few screenshots of. Good luck in the endeavor. 

As far as this Eminence driver goes I hope they get their stock built up soon. I need that 2nd pair eventually. 

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2 hours ago, Ricci said:

Looks somewhat similar to a design I had a few years ago but ended up going in another direction. IF it's the one I've seen a few screenshots of. Good luck in the endeavor. 

As far as this Eminence driver goes I hope they get their stock built up soon. I need that 2nd pair eventually. 

You can see parts of it in the SKHorn thread where I illustrated the vent blocks. Will probably be long til I can even think about building one, but I modeled a downsized version with only a single driver and it looks like I'm at least building a prototype within the next few months. The hornresp model shows a voltage sensitivity averaging 98db from 30-100Hz with the 21DS115-4 and it's +-3db from 30-150Hz in the ballpark of 250-300L external volume. I'm basically aiming for a "compact" 21" cab which is not a direct radiator. This is the first Hornresp simulation I've done without actually recreating the cab in Inventor, but it should kinda work. For the big version it was the other way around, I just had this crazy idea and built it in Inventor. Then measured it and put in the parameters into Hornresp and started tweaking. IPAL models best, no surprises here. Crazy good driver, but also crazy heavy, crazy expensive and amp-crazy.

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Built the cab in Inventor today and simmed it according to the CAD model. First graph is the Eminence at 1W into Znom. The DS also models very nicely (for system EQ) because it looks like only two PEQ points would be needed. In all the models I made (also from the big design) I noticed that the Eminence seems to drop off a little earlier compared to the DS or IPAL.

The interal volume ended up at 40L less than I anticipated, which is why the tuning rose to 33Hz. I will probably make it a little larger and shorten the port (currently 60cm long, no bend). The pic is 300L external, 60kg with the driver.

D6wawUb.png

 

As comparison, here is a sim more to my liking: 30L more rear chamber volume, 5cm shorter port, 21DS115-4 at 2V:

popEoTY.png

 

Looks like a pretty neat cab if not EQ'd for rock live shows. Just don't cross it over any higher than 80Hz to avoid that nasty spike at 170Hz.

I'll make a separate thread once I gathered more info and tested the actual cab. F10 is at 24Hz, roll off is about 26db/octave and group delay about 1 cycle at Fs. Looking good so far

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Quick comparison of the Eminence vs IPAL in my cab. The slightly higher Xmax gives the IPAL .5db over the Eminence when excursion limited, but you can see that the IPAL is about 2db more efficient over the relevant output spectrum.

Red means excursion limited, green is 10KW fed into the driver. So this is an efficiency graph basically.
Red/Green in the Eminence, blue = IPAL.

Edit: Just for reference, the DS hits 130.5db before exceeding Xmax at 45Hz

PCGIyvE.jpg

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After running these for a month or so I'm still impressed at their sound quality and extension. They have some nice weight to the ulf the DS115 did not have and don't exhibit the distortion they did at Fs. I have 2 more to build and can't see myself moving on from these anytime soon.

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8 hours ago, radulescu_paul_mircea said:

In the last 2 editions of Voice Coil magazine they measured the Eminence drivers, the 18" and the 21". 

Yep...The 21 Klippel data is from Eminence. I would've preferred to see it done by RedRock but a lot of the time RR seems to cut the data capture off before a long stroke driver is really pushed. They don't seem to ever go past 15mm so the data may not have been as indicative. The Eminence data certainly looks great. The Xmax based on the Klippel defined limits for subs is almost 19mm based on all 3 criteria. I was surprised by the suspension behavior. I knew the spider choice and arrangement was good but I thought the triple roll surround would start to tighten earlier.

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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-fUDVjQIgSk6yMSriJNTysL_wo4IN-vJ/view?usp=drive_web

Surround isn't glued perfectly to the frame as I can decrease the noise by putting pressure between the outer roll and gasket.

This is the worst out of four. Two are fine, one is very slight, and this one is noisy. The low frequency noise is clipping in the signal.

Seems this was an issue with several drivers from other manufactures as well.

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Welcome!

Are these new drivers or did they fail after some time?

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Thanks!

These are new drivers. First test was all drivers wired in free air with a 20hz tone. Stood out immediately even at low levels....which means it was either missed in QC or shipping loosened something up. Kind of wish they (all) went with a suspended inner box with foam edges for shipment. Heavy drivers go on a rough ride. 

Eminence emailed shipping labels today for two of them. The quieter one wasn't too bad but I imagine it could get worse with time. Hope they turn out out well in the long run. 

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Interesting, I also had a problem with one of the 14 Dayton woofers I recently got. Very similar noise, just that I was testing at 20Hz so the "clicking" was slower. The issue doesn't seem to come from the surround on the Daytons, more like the noise comes from the phase plug (those woofers have a solid phase plug in the center instead of a dust cap).

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Any small issue with glue or primor can lead to failure. Its a bit tricky and takes precision. Hopefully Eminence can get those fixed for you

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On 6/29/2020 at 5:59 PM, peniku8 said:

Interesting, I also had a problem with one of the 14 Dayton woofers I recently got. Very similar noise, just that I was testing at 20Hz so the "clicking" was slower. The issue doesn't seem to come from the surround on the Daytons, more like the noise comes from the phase plug (those woofers have a solid phase plug in the center instead of a dust cap).

Hard to tell what that might be, best to return it if you can? The noise may be coming from the motor or voice coil. The phase plug won't likely be making any actual noise itself, but any number of things could be wrong with that driver, its very hard to tell sometimes what exactly it is.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Kyle said:

Hard to tell what that might be, best to return it if you can? The noise may be coming from the motor or voice coil. The phase plug won't likely be making any actual noise itself, but any number of things could be wrong with that driver, its very hard to tell sometimes what exactly it is.

 

 

Yea I returned it. With the phase plug I was just refering to the general direction. I had 12 woofers in series and it was clear that this one made noise well before reaching Xmax and it was about 5db earlier compared to the other woofers.

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Yes, that was the one. We'll see how the fixed drivers compare with the two good ones I have.

I wonder if it's more common on these high xmax accordion surround drivers.

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10 hours ago, ErnieM said:

Yes, that was the one. We'll see how the fixed drivers compare with the two good ones I have.

I wonder if it's more common on these high xmax accordion surround drivers.

I tend to think its a glue problem, or primer problem. 

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On 7/6/2020 at 12:06 PM, Kyle said:

I tend to think its a glue problem, or primer problem. 

Agreed. Could be a loose shorting ring even. There's a lot going on in the motor and gap area. Could be the spiders not glued fully also. 

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