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Ricci's Skram Subwoofer & Files

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On 2/26/2020 at 2:20 AM, klipsch said:

A few of us have sh50s and skrams. One even has sh50s, skrams, and skhorn ūüė≤. There's also an individual that had sh50s for LR with a sh96 as a C who now has one skhorn.

I think the quote you shared explains things quite well.  All I could do is reiterate that with a different subjective contribution. 

The synergy horn design is marketed as a true point source. They do magical things for my ears in my room.  Combined with some skrams and the only thing I may end up changing is adding more skrams. I have 2 extra channels on this Amp that aren't beigg used right now, so that's just a waste, right? 

If you have an opportunity to listen to any synergy horn, I highly recommend it. Danley allowed the unity horn to be implemented by Yorkville. There was a u15 and a u215 IIRC (passive and active versions). Those designs were not full point source as the bass was handled by drivers outside of the unity horn. However, they can still be found and are usually not too expensive. Could be another option to pursue in hearing a danley loudspeaker design. 

Thanks for suggesting the Yorkville version as well. "There was .." - are they out of production? The U15 looks interesting, and where I've found them listed are not that expensive.

Question is though, and this concerns the current Synergy horns as well, whether they're dialed-in too hot in the HF-region, being that they're likely to be used where the listening distance is more pronounced (like outdoors, or bigger indoor venues)? Indeed that's crucial, because I'd be using them in a domestic environment where the listening distance won't exceed ~10-12 feet. 

The bass capacity some of the people here have¬†implemented in their homes¬†is substantial, to say the least. Skrams and Skhorn used in conjunction.. - makes my pair of MicroWrecker tapped horns seem almost puny by comparison..¬†ūüė≤

On 2/26/2020 at 2:47 AM, jay michael said:

I've got a pair of Sh-46 for pa work and a pair of Sm60f in my living room, both of which have been used with my Skrams. I love them more and more every time I get to hear them. The Sh-46 can effortlessly get extremely loud yet sound silky smooth at the same time. They are the best sounding pa speaker I have personally heard, and I get that feedback over and over again when I get them out for shows. Besides sounding awesome they also have unreal pattern control which is something I never considered being important until I owned them.  Consistent sound quality is a given with synergy horns, especially in indoor venues.  You can put the sound where you want it and keep it away from from walls and ceilings with ease.  I figure I would need 8 or more skram's to keep up with the pair of 46's.  The sm60f's on the other hand have more of a hifi sound to them. They are just magical in my living room and also pair up nicely with the Skrams.  The guy who I bought them from upgraded to the sh-50's and said the sm60f's sound every bit as good, but just don't go quite as low as them.   Some sh-50 are on my wishlist..... someday.  Pic added from last weekend

https://imgur.com/gallery/UO0MrG7

Thanks for sharing your impressions. While I'd love to try out the SH46's they seem not to be well-suited in a "hifi" set-up due to the early HF roll-off, but other than that I gather they'd be a wonderful addition to one's home system, not least as HT-speakers (with subs)! 

The SM60F is more like it for what I'm looking at, and that you've tried them out successfully with the Skrams is important info; my intention is to use a pair of Synergy horns all the way down to my tapped horn subs (crossed in the vicinity of or slightly below 80 Hz), although I am wondering whether a dedicated midbass horn would be a better choice so to have a horn-loading here that actually acts like a horn (with dispersion control lower in frequency) and then crossing the SM60F higher? That's why I'm looking at the SM96 with a wider coverage and dispersion control further down. The SH50's would be great, but I'm afraid they're too expensive for my budget as is. 

Do you feel the SM60F lacks energy in their lower operating range crossed over to the Skrams, compared to the SH46?

EDIT: on second thought, the Danley's or Yorkville's being too "hot" in the HF-region for domestic use likely won't  be a problem in my case, being that they'll be used through a Xilica XP-3060 DSP unit anyway with DRC Designer corrections. 

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4 hours ago, m_ms said:

Thanks for suggesting the Yorkville version as well. "There was .." - are they out of production? The U15 looks interesting, and where I've found them listed are not that expensive.

Question is though, and this concerns the current Synergy horns as well, whether they're dialed-in too hot in the HF-region, being that they're likely to be used where the listening distance is more pronounced (like outdoors, or bigger indoor venues)? Indeed that's crucial, because I'd be using them in a domestic environment where the listening distance won't exceed ~10-12 feet. 

Yes. I am pretty sure the Yorkville unity designs have been out of production for years. Yorkville refers to the unity series as Legacy on their website. However, I have seen them available on different sites in the States (marked as New). Perhaps there is still stock out there? Diyaudio guys have cloned the unity horn section with success.  A guy not far from me ran / is still running the passive version of the 215s. He is Gorilla83 on AVS. Back in 2014 there was a good GTG at his place. The 215s were very good. I thought they were much better than the big equivalent JTRs that we heard in his room as well. 

I'm pushing my 4th decade and while I treat my hearing with care, I cannot hear above 18khz anymore. I thought the Danley speakers usually have an upper rolloff despite the compression driver they use VS dialed hot HF.  My ears enjoy them from about 13 feet away. However, I do run them through a minidsp and have added 3 or 4 few PEQs. 

Beastaudio in AVS, had sm60fs. He eventually went to 50s. Now he has JBL cinema style speakers. Maybe he can help as well with your questions. He had an skhorn now as well. 

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7 hours ago, m_ms said:

Thanks for suggesting the Yorkville version as well. "There was .." - are they out of production? The U15 looks interesting, and where I've found them listed are not that expensive.

Question is though, and this concerns the current Synergy horns as well, whether they're dialed-in too hot in the HF-region, being that they're likely to be used where the listening distance is more pronounced (like outdoors, or bigger indoor venues)? Indeed that's crucial, because I'd be using them in a domestic environment where the listening distance won't exceed ~10-12 feet. 

The bass capacity some of the people here have¬†implemented in their homes¬†is substantial, to say the least. Skrams and Skhorn used in conjunction.. - makes my pair of MicroWrecker tapped horns seem almost puny by comparison..¬†ūüė≤

Thanks for sharing your impressions. While I'd love to try out the SH46's they seem not to be well-suited in a "hifi" set-up due to the early HF roll-off, but other than that I gather they'd be a wonderful addition to one's home system, not least as HT-speakers (with subs)! 

The SM60F is more like it for what I'm looking at, and that you've tried them out successfully with the Skrams is important info; my intention is to use a pair of Synergy horns all the way down to my tapped horn subs (crossed in the vicinity of or slightly below 80 Hz), although I am wondering whether a dedicated midbass horn would be a better choice so to have a horn-loading here that actually acts like a horn (with dispersion control lower in frequency) and then crossing the SM60F higher? That's why I'm looking at the SM96 with a wider coverage and dispersion control further down. The SH50's would be great, but I'm afraid they're too expensive for my budget as is. 

Do you feel the SM60F lacks energy in their lower operating range crossed over to the Skrams, compared to the SH46?

EDIT: on second thought, the Danley's or Yorkville's being too "hot" in the HF-region for domestic use likely won't  be a problem in my case, being that they'll be used through a Xilica XP-3060 DSP unit anyway with DRC Designer corrections. 

There are better options for home use then the sh-46.  I have used them in my house for testing and tuning during the winter but side by side with the sm60f I prefer the 60's sound for reasonable in house listening volumes. The funny thing about the 46 is despite the published response it never feels lacking in high freq sparkle.  In a lot of ways I prefer how the high frequencies sound out of them compared to most other pa speakers, and many other people who have used them echo that opinion.  I've spoken with a few people who have done the sm60f to sh50 upgrade path and they all seemed to think the sound quality is near identical between both boxes minus the low freq capability.  I actually had the choice to buy the sm60f or the sh50's as the guy I was dealing with that both for sale at the time.  In the end my decision was a practical one, I was looking for something more portable that could be used as a "b" system or fills to my 46's when I needed the extra cover. The 60's also came with tilting pole mounted hardware that makes them really flexible to deploy so in the end they fit my requirements better.  The 50's he has were also install models so they had no handles which would be fine for the living room but tough for pa work. 

Both the 46 and the 60f have a similar low frequency roll off in the 65 hz or so area.  Neither box has much "bass" to speak of but they were designed to be used with a sub.   The 46 trades low freq response for increased spl,  and the 60f trades low freq response for a smaller size.  Match with a good clean sounding sub and I think you will be very happy.

If my decision criteria was different in the sense I was buying specifically for home use I would have gone with the 50's for sure.   Tough choice to make, good luck!

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I may be the odd man out but I actually didn’t think the high-end or low-end on the SH-50s (BeastAudio’s) was that impressive, at least from a detail and articulate standpoint.  To me, the high-end on the SH-50s seemed rolled off and when we looked at the measurements, sure enough, the high-end started rolling off around 17,000 Hz.  On the low-end there was plenty of midbass but I didn’t find it as detailed as I would have liked.  On the flip side, I thought the soundstage and point-source of the speakers were phenomenal.  But overall, I liked my JTR 212s over the SH-50s because the detail was better on the 212s.  I ended up taking my 212s to Beast’s house so the listening was blind A/B back and forth.
 

I actually started a thread on AVS trying to get Danley to produce a home-theater version of the SH-50/60 with a slightly better compression driver but after some initial talks with a Danley person in the thread, it didn’t end up going anywhere.

 

Edit: I should also mentioned that my sealed 212s were at a severe disadvantage when comparing midbass.  But up top the 212s were noticeably better to my ears.

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Two notes:

First,  I have found sine waves to be a terrible test signal to assess the bandwidth limits of human hearing.  I don't hear sine waves too well above 16 kHz, but with real world content, I hear contributions from frequencies to 20 kHz and beyond even at fairly quiet volumes.  My wife once complained about an annoying treble harmonic in a music passage, which I identified to be at 20.8 kHz, and she confirmed that the annoyance was gone after I filtered it out.  Yet in sine wave tests during the same session her ears didn't respond above 10.5 kHz.  (!)

Second, frequency response shape in the upper treble is tricky to interpret.  In-air absorption is quite profound at the upper reaches.  For example, at typical room  temperature (T) and relative humidity (RH), response at 20 kHz drops ~0.5 dB per meter of distance.  The particulars of the in-air roll-off shape also depend a lot on RH differences, which could vary dramatically from day-to-day in some climates, like mine.  Any published anechoic speaker response measurement will have been performed at some distance (1 or 2 meter or more) from the speaker and should exhibit at least some droop at the top.  If the distance, T, and RH are all published, it's theoretically possible to estimate what the speaker itself is doing, but otherwise all you can do is guess.  Also, evidence suggests that humans adapt very well to air-induced roll-offs and probably also to roll-offs that "look like" an air-induced roll-off.  Harman did binaural room scanning (BRS) studies of distance effects in cinemas.  The BRS used measured impulse responses at different rows inside a real cinema to assess perceptual consequences of in-air roll-off.  The study concluded that the treble sounded essentially the same at the different distances.

A thing to look for in a top-end roll-off is whether it's smooth and gradual or it's abrupt.  A lot of compression driver + horn combos drop abruptly above a point somewhere below 20 kHz (often a break-up resonance) , and those speakers will obviously not reproduce the content above the cut well and will also likely audibly ring at the abrupt transition point.  Another thing is that when listening indoors with reflections, off-axis response likely contributes a lot to the sound, and compression driver + horn combos very often have significant polar response variation in those upper reaches even if they look pretty smooth on-axis.  So just because a response looks smooth on-axis doesn't mean it will sound smooth if the off-axis is rough.

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5 hours ago, dgage said:

I may be the odd man out but I actually didn’t think the high-end or low-end on the SH-50s (BeastAudio’s) was that impressive, at least from a detail and articulate standpoint.  To me, the high-end on the SH-50s seemed rolled off and when we looked at the measurements, sure enough, the high-end started rolling off around 17,000 Hz.  On the low-end there was plenty of midbass but I didn’t find it as detailed as I would have liked.  On the flip side, I thought the soundstage and point-source of the speakers were phenomenal.  But overall, I liked my JTR 212s over the SH-50s because the detail was better on the 212s.  I ended up taking my 212s to Beast’s house so the listening was blind A/B back and forth.
 

I actually started a thread on AVS trying to get Danley to produce a home-theater version of the SH-50/60 with a slightly better compression driver but after some initial talks with a Danley person in the thread, it didn’t end up going anywhere.

 

Edit: I should also mentioned that my sealed 212s were at a severe disadvantage when comparing midbass.  But up top the 212s were noticeably better to my ears.

That's what I love about this hobby. Such difference in variations. In my room, I do not have that rolloff with my sh50s. I'm a fan of horns and metal tweeters. I loved the flagship titanium mb quart component system I put in my first car 20 years ago. Still miss it.  However, when I heard the big bad towering and impressive looking JTRs, it was the first time I understood ear fatigue and "tinny-ness" I had read about on the forums for decades from people who did not like Klipsch speakers. Was it the room? The seating position? The source? The amp? Etc? I do not know, but I will absolutely jump at the chance again to hear the JTRs to try and understand the variations of opinions and how mine were so different. 

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37 minutes ago, klipsch said:

That's what I love about this hobby. Such difference in variations. In my room, I do not have that rolloff with my sh50s. I'm a fan of horns and metal tweeters. I loved the flagship titanium mb quart component system I put in my first car 20 years ago. Still miss it.  However, when I heard the big bad towering and impressive looking JTRs, it was the first time I understood ear fatigue and "tinny-ness" I had read about on the forums for decades from people who did not like Klipsch speakers. Was it the room? The seating position? The source? The amp? Etc? I do not know, but I will absolutely jump at the chance again to hear the JTRs to try and understand the variations of opinions and how mine were so different. 

Interestingly, my 212s are the aluminum horn versions and I like them better than the wooden horn versions.  Like you said, lots of opinions. :)

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1 hour ago, klipsch said:

However, when I heard the big bad towering and impressive looking JTRs, it was the first time I understood ear fatigue and "tinny-ness" I had read about on the forums for decades from people who did not like Klipsch speakers.

I have some lower budget Klipsch speakers and I find em less fatiguing than my Sennheiser HD650 which are often praised to have a very flat FR. When I first tried the HD650 I was very disappointed. I didn't expect crazy deep bass from an open back design obviously, but the hump in the upper bass/lower mids were immediately apparent and muddied the sound a lot. Plus the boosts in the treble region, which made sibilant vocals really annoying and general listening experience pretty unpleasant over time.

I've kept them after all after I accepted the fact that there are basically no heaphones which are perfect without EQ. When EQ'd flat the Senns sound great, especially in the mid range.

I'm soon going to pull the trigger on ribbons for a DIY project. They can't quite keep up in dynamic range, but their definition seems to be stellar. And they're good to like 100khz so I can  annoy some dogs. Gonna be exciting.

@SME I very much agree with your observations on sine waves vs bandpassed noise. I've recently had to mix a wierd bass guitar sound, which had some very high crackle, which I identified to be some sort of pick noise above 17khz. I still hear 18khz sine waves at fairly low volumes, but it's something entirely different if you have like an entire octave of noise above.

That's also a good explanation on why I absolutely disagree with equal loudness contours. IMO it's exactly the opposite. I also disabled the DEQ feature in my Marantz amp. Studies have proven that people subjected to band-passed noise would come up with completely different "equal loudness contours" as those subjected to pure sine waves.

It's the same with distortion. Yes I hear 0.2% THD of a 100Hz sine wave at 70db. Now listen to music and all the fancy analog studio gear already introduced 5% THD or more. Good luck trying to notice the 1% THD of your speaker.

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On 10/18/2019 at 10:23 AM, menace said:

This is what I have come up with so far. Was thinking of fixing the mesh at the end of the mesh that's easy to get at with screws and washers and the other end will kind of grip into the wood by the sharp ends it has from being snipped to size. The mesh is about 1.6mm strand size, its easy enough to bend by hand but will still have a bid of tension on it from being pulled into position by the screws.

What do you guys think? Could it vibrate perhaps?

 

 

IMG_20191018_095150.jpg

IMG_20191018_095302.jpg

I need to report back on how this solution turned out.

Some vibration! So until I play around some more it should be noted that this didn't work.

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17 hours ago, menace said:

I need to report back on how this solution turned out.

Some vibration! So until I play around some more it should be noted that this didn't work.

Thanks for letting us know. 

At least you tried. 

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On 3/11/2020 at 11:55 AM, menace said:

I need to report back on how this solution turned out.

Some vibration! So until I play around some more it should be noted that this didn't work.

I need to comment on this again! I threw a wee birthday celebration party for my self over the weekend and ran the subs right up until the limit at times. I didn't go out of my way to take extra observations but i cant say i ever heard the vibrations this time around( and i was very close to them at times). I defiantly did hear noises from them another time though. So I am guessing this solution can work, perhaps with a heavier gauge wire mesh and/or a better fixing technique.

 

mesh.jpg

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Very interesting... Maybe more fasteners? Maybe some speaker seal/tape where the mesh meets the wood? Thanks for sharing the results. Good luck with your experimentation. 

And of course, Happy Belated Birthday 

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6 hours ago, klipsch said:

 Maybe some speaker seal/tape where the mesh meets the wood? 

 

This...

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I just saw that the Eminence driver is also available in Europe now. I'd get three 21DS115 for its price here and even the 21IPAL is still cheaper ūüėź

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