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Ricci's Skram Subwoofer & Files

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Well, I finally got mine built! Lol took a while but life got in the way. I'm also just staring to do my fiber optic ceiling, so multiple things at once!.

I should have the subs up and running next week. Drivers are DS115.

Just getting duratex. Will be my nearfield subs lol.

IMG_20200214_162903.jpg

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2 hours ago, klipsch said:

Start building two more now and thank me next week after these two are operational. Their like the Lay's potato chips slogan :)

Lol. If I had the room I probably would!

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They are addicting! 2 is a nice start but 4 has a nice symmetry to it. 6 makes a good stacking height for your tops but is an odd number for amp channels.... better just make it 8 haha! 

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40 minutes ago, jay michael said:

They are addicting! 2 is a nice start but 4 has a nice symmetry to it. 6 makes a good stacking height for your tops but is an odd number for amp channels.... better just make it 8 haha! 

I have 2 channels left unused on this sinbosen Amp...😧

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8 hours ago, jay michael said:

They are addicting! 2 is a nice start but 4 has a nice symmetry to it. 6 makes a good stacking height for your tops but is an odd number for amp channels.... better just make it 8 haha! 

3 21DS115-8 in parallel per amp channel sounds like something I'd do. Their impedence minimum is pretty low and should be around 2 Ohm with 3 drivers in parallel.

You could also get a point-symmetric setup that way. LCR. With a Skram beneath and on top of each main speaker if theres enough room. Put Skhorns in between for convenience.

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11 hours ago, jay michael said:

They are addicting! 2 is a nice start but 4 has a nice symmetry to it. 6 makes a good stacking height for your tops but is an odd number for amp channels.... better just make it 8 haha! 

If I didn't already have 2 x JTR OS pros , I would have done 4 right off the bat. Even the 2 JTRs in my room is ridiculous lol. 

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6 hours ago, peniku8 said:

3 21DS115-8 in parallel per amp channel sounds like something I'd do. Their impedence minimum is pretty low and should be around 2 Ohm with 3 drivers in parallel.

You could also get a point-symmetric setup that way. LCR. With a Skram beneath and on top of each main speaker if theres enough room. Put Skhorns in between for convenience.

Yeah I am sort of kicking myself for going with the 4 ohm 21sw152's at this point. I am already running 2 4 ohms drivers off of each channel of my k10.  Ill have to add another amp soon to add more subs

 

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I've been off grid for a few days and trying to catch up...It's been busy here!

Looks like new builds are coming from new users. 

QSC PL380 is a solid amp. My only gripe is it doesn't have the DSP and networking features of a lot of the newer amps. 

I'd use the 21DS115 or Lavoce SAN214.50 instead of the 21NLW9601 just due to the lower cost and the slightly higher excursion. 

Nice looking final pics of your cabs Peniku.

N8DOGG I'm glad to see you finally finished them. What are you replacing in your room or can you actually fit more subs? Last I heard your room was basically a wall of subs to begin with!

 

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Did a test of one skram in my room with different port tuning with high pass bypassed and no PEQ. Low power and gain test with the mic at my MLP; -20.0 on pre/pro and MLP is about 14.5 feet from the skram. 

There are room nodes/nulls to account for, but hopefully this gives an idea of port tuning response of the skrams. 

 

1842756744_mlp1skramtest.thumb.png.4c55d069f0216babb6fc9822c85b4111.png

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On 2/18/2020 at 10:31 AM, Ricci said:

I've been off grid for a few days and trying to catch up...It's been busy here!

Looks like new builds are coming from new users. 

QSC PL380 is a solid amp. My only gripe is it doesn't have the DSP and networking features of a lot of the newer amps. 

I'd use the 21DS115 or Lavoce SAN214.50 instead of the 21NLW9601 just due to the lower cost and the slightly higher excursion. 

Nice looking final pics of your cabs Peniku.

N8DOGG I'm glad to see you finally finished them. What are you replacing in your room or can you actually fit more subs? Last I heard your room was basically a wall of subs to begin with!

 

Not replacing, just adding and no, they don't really fit lol.... But that's never stopped me before!

I was just messing around with their placement in the back of my room this morning. I won't be able to have them directly behindy sofa but on an angle, they will work (only because my equipment cab is directly behind the seating) but be a bit tight to get to my rack.

It's only me in there 95% of the time, so it's all good. 

I'm in the process of figuring out how to EQ everything... Man, I with there was just a box with hpf/lpf knobs and that's it. That's really what I need. 

Hoping to get the Monolith HTP-1 once the bass modules comes out, the ability to run 3 independent subs with full eq etc in the unit will be awesome. I will be powering them with a fp14000 clone.

nO9nEC (1).jpg

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@N8DOGG --

And just thinking about the woofers in the main speakers are 15" drivers.. That's a rather massive sub set-up, not least in light of more to potentially come!

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Off-topic, but I've noticed a poster (or two?) in this thread using Danley Sound Labs Synergy horns in conjunction with the Skrams. I'm contemplating possibly incorporating a pair of SM96's in my own set-up, and would appreciate any insight on their sound - be that pro or domestic use. You're welcome to send me PM's so not to derail this thread.

EDIT: Though this paragraph from poster @jay michael is quite illuminating, it appears (from page 11):
 

Quote

 

As for the Danleys, wow!  If you haven't every heard them you need to track some down. I would describe the sound as mid forward, every little sound no matter how subtle is right there plain and pure and with unreal clarity and seperation. My buddy that was hanging out with me described it as being able to hear and feel the textures of each sound.  Really breathtaking large stereo field, the sound doesn't feel directional from the horns at all, seems to just envelope you from everywhere.  We played a bit of everything, metal, rock, folk and a bunch of our favorite electronic tracks, everything sounded amazing and exciting.   The mix between the Danley and the Skram seems very fitting, the clean punchy attack of the skrams compliments the Danleys sound nicely.

 

/Mikael

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A few of us have sh50s and skrams. One even has sh50s, skrams, and skhorn 😲. There's also an individual that had sh50s for LR with a sh96 as a C who now has one skhorn.

I think the quote you shared explains things quite well.  All I could do is reiterate that with a different subjective contribution. 

The synergy horn design is marketed as a true point source. They do magical things for my ears in my room.  Combined with some skrams and the only thing I may end up changing is adding more skrams. I have 2 extra channels on this Amp that aren't beigg used right now, so that's just a waste, right? 

If you have an opportunity to listen to any synergy horn, I highly recommend it. Danley allowed the unity horn to be implemented by Yorkville. There was a u15 and a u215 IIRC (passive and active versions). Those designs were not full point source as the bass was handled by drivers outside of the unity horn. However, they can still be found and are usually not too expensive. Could be another option to pursue in hearing a danley loudspeaker design. 

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I've got a pair of Sh-46 for pa work and a pair of Sm60f in my living room, both of which have been used with my Skrams. I love them more and more every time I get to hear them. The Sh-46 can effortlessly get extremely loud yet sound silky smooth at the same time. They are the best sounding pa speaker I have personally heard, and I get that feedback over and over again when I get them out for shows. Besides sounding awesome they also have unreal pattern control which is something I never considered being important until I owned them.  Consistent sound quality is a given with synergy horns, especially in indoor venues.  You can put the sound where you want it and keep it away from from walls and ceilings with ease.  I figure I would need 8 or more skram's to keep up with the pair of 46's.  The sm60f's on the other hand have more of a hifi sound to them. They are just magical in my living room and also pair up nicely with the Skrams.  The guy who I bought them from upgraded to the sh-50's and said the sm60f's sound every bit as good, but just don't go quite as low as them.   Some sh-50 are on my wishlist..... someday.  Pic added from last weekend

https://imgur.com/gallery/UO0MrG7

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That's a mean looking monster stack in that picture! I like it! You should decorate that beast during Halloween and scare the trick or treaters. 

Just did a nice hour long listening session of pretty much every genre of music that exists. Finally got my first clipping/signal light to show up on the 20000q clone amp driving these skrams in a Gorgon City mix called "FTPA".  The last bit of that song pushes out what feels like 30hz tones on crack. Pretty sure the skrams laughed at me, and said, "is that all?" 

Crystal clear and visceral. 

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Some thoughts I've been having today about tuning.  It's almost pleasant enough up here in Canada to get into the backyard for some more measurements and tuning.  I have run my Skrams for a few shows now using a 120hz crossover and I haven't been able to fault it. These shows however have all been indoor so I am looking forward to more outdoor testing to get a better feel for what sounds best.   I want to build a hand full of presets using a range of crossover points so I can more easily switch between profiles for better A/B listening and testing.  Another thing that is on my mind is what would be the most preferable dsp corrected freq response shape for the Skrams.  The raw response out of the box has a gently rising shape to it, but up to this point I have been using some simply parametric eq to make the response basically flat.  I've been reading around trying to find info on this to see if there is a preferred shape to the response curve and I haven't found it talked about much.  It "seems" that a flat response is most common in the examples I have come across but I have also found some examples where the response is hottest in the low frequencies with it tailing off towards higher frequencies.  Here is an example from the 18sound website for one of their DIY cabinet designs for a dual 21" manifold type subs. First picture show the raw response, second picture shows their recommended corrected response.

https://imgur.com/gallery/LYq4N8u

https://imgur.com/gallery/kReqJkN

 

What would determine a manufacturer,  or even a DIY cabinet builder to settle on a final response shape?  Is it purely based on what sounds best through lots of experimentation? Or is there something more specific at play. Any thoughts or feedback? What kind of corrected settings are you using for your Skrams?

I would also be interested in what everyone is using for a hp on their skrams as well.  I've been using a 24db BW at 28hz on mine but for events where its all techno or psy I usually bump it up to 33-35hz as it tends to clean up the sound a bit where those low frequencies are not really needed as much

 

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Hey Jay. 

I really think it depends on your preferences, the environment and the content. What sounds good with rock or country outdoors might not sound so great with EDM in a small venue. I'd recommend to start with something relatively flat from 30-100Hz to start and flavor it to your preference over time. If you keep track of it well you may even end up with different presets depending on the musical style or the size of the venue / outdoors. 

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21 minutes ago, Ricci said:

Hey Jay. 

I really think it depends on your preferences, the environment and the content. What sounds good with rock or country outdoors might not sound so great with EDM in a small venue. I'd recommend to start with something relatively flat from 30-100Hz to start and flavor it to your preference over time. If you keep track of it well you may even end up with different presets depending on the musical style or the size of the venue / outdoors. 

Thanks Josh, that makes good sense to me.  I guess in a way I have already experienced that through my own experiences.  For shows which are predominantly techno or psy I'm always adding a bump in the 80-110 or so range, which likely makes the response more similar to the cabinets raw sound.  On the other hand for more bass driven stuff I am pulling a bit of that bump out and adding a chunk around 30-60hz.  Gotta put some time in with more experimenting then, like you said it would nice to have a range of profiles to use to best suite the program material.

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4 hours ago, jay michael said:

Thanks Josh, that makes good sense to me.  I guess in a way I have already experienced that through my own experiences.  For shows which are predominantly techno or psy I'm always adding a bump in the 80-110 or so range, which likely makes the response more similar to the cabinets raw sound.  On the other hand for more bass driven stuff I am pulling a bit of that bump out and adding a chunk around 30-60hz.  Gotta put some time in with more experimenting then, like you said it would nice to have a range of profiles to use to best suite the program material.

I did some experimenting last night. In my room, the skrams have a large bump between 30 and 40 hz at the mlp. About 16db with both skrams running. I had put in a high shelf of - 8db from 20hz on both boxes to get a response that is flat, +-2db, from 10hz to 55hz before beginning to slope down 10db to the mains. Last night I removed 4db from the shelf/added 4db back. That gave me a nice crest in the 30hz to 40hz range of around 8db. For music, I really enjoyed the increased chest punch and it did not sound unnatural for a a wide variety of genres. 

I also played around more with the port blocking. The air movement got quite pronounced when running 10db hot VS the mains. It's been years since I've run anything but sealed, so maybe pronounced is the wrong word.

So typically, I run the sub channel hot around 10db with a slope similar to the pictures you share. If my mains are at 75db, the subs are at 85db or slightly higher with some music (e.g. Blues). 

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For outdoor use, a good starting point is response that measures flat.  Whatever EQ you used to do that is probably a good starting point to use indoors too.   In both cases, it's entirely reasonable to make tweaks to suite taste.  Rooms often have ugly resonances that are helpful to EQ out, but I suggest going by ear here more than measurements.  Indoor measurements involve a bunch of caveats and are difficult to interpret.  And note that it's normal for a sub that's flat outdoors to have a rise toward the bottom when measured indoors.

 

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DSP amps or system processors usually come with an IN EQ section and an OUT EQ section (unless it's a really bad one like the touchscreen dsp in the china amps). I like using the out section to EQ my channels flat and using the input EQ to do the signal shaping. If the signal shaping doesn't carry over to the mains , it quickly sounds unnatural imo.

Here is some signal shaping that l-acoustics seems to like. Note that this is the response target without subs.

05_l-acoustics_soundvision_autofilter-fr

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10 hours ago, peniku8 said:

If the signal shaping doesn't carry over to the mains , it quickly sounds unnatural imo.

This is an excellent point, and I agree whole-heartedly.  Getting the *overall* response (with mains crossed) smooth is crucial.  Along these lines, if your mains when measured *outdoors* have a response that rises toward the bass , then you want the subs to maintain that slope if possible.  Or if output is limited, at least transition the shape as smoothly as possible and expect emphasis around the transition area.

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The JBL, Martin Audio, or Harman Curve may not be a bad place to start. These are all similar in general trend to the L-Acoustics graph already posted. Some are more aggressive than others. I usually end up settling somewhere similar in shape with my systems. Gentle rise from the HF towards the midbass that continues on into the bass range. 

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