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B2 Audio XM18 vs Dayton Ultimax UM-1822

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1 hour ago, Electrodynamic said:

That's why the IB-24 is called the IB-24...because it should be used in an Infinte Baffle alignment. If enclosure size is an issue the HS-24 or SHS-24 are the winners.

Budget doesn't stretch out enough for the other 24"ers :( I was hopeful because the site stated it also worked in a sealed. It's not a problem if it's not (nearly) as good as the other 24"ers, as long as it can outperform something like 2x Dayton Ultimax 18" ers in the same enclosure. Then it would be still worth it. 

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33 minutes ago, Droogne said:

Budget doesn't stretch out enough for the other 24"ers :( I was hopeful because the site stated it also worked in a sealed. It's not a problem if it's not (nearly) as good as the other 24"ers, as long as it can outperform something like 2x Dayton Ultimax 18" ers in the same enclosure. Then it would be still worth it. 

Let me remind you of what I said in a previous post:

Quote

You seem to be very concerned about both size, cost and extension.  Unfortunately, you have to compromise somewhere.  With ported systems, the lower the tune the bigger the box must be to achieve the same output capability.  And if you are pushing the size as small as possible, you'll want a driver with a bigger, more expensive motor. [...] By going sealed, you can achieve a lot more low end extension in a much smaller space than with ported, but you will pay for it big time, both in the cost of multiple drivers with big motors and the amps needed to power them in order to achieve the same output.

The IB-24 is not designed for "small" boxes.  It doesn't have the motor strength or the coil power handling to perform well in a small sealed enclosure.

If you want low and loud in a small box, you have to spend $$$ on drivers and amp power.  If you want to go 24" sealed in the cabinet size you're contemplating, then you should save up for the HS-24 at least.  I'd still recommend building two of those boxes at least if you want them to keep up with the rest of the system.

Or you could save up even more for 2 x SHS-24 and get good performance from both in a single 16 cuft cabinet, if you use a huge amp.  See how this works?  Low, loud and small cost lots of money!

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7 hours ago, SME said:

If you want to go 24" sealed in the cabinet size you're contemplating, then you should save up for the HS-24 at least. 

I was thinking of my follow up response.  I kept thinking, sure a couple 18s would be phenomenal and may fit into his budget now.  If you were to buy 4 HST-18s, you’d have one of the best subwoofer systems on the continent.  Or a pair of HS-24s would do the same though the quad 18s in the corners would provide more even bass in most rooms.  Realize that we’re talking about bass systems in the top 1% in the entire world.  That is going to cost some money but then again, is a value compared to what most uninformed consumers pay for their “high-end” audio equipment.  Either way, this system should last you 10 years and likely many more than that so I’m of the opinion to save your money and get what you want.  Or even better, start with a pair of 18s and add a pair of 18s later and you have almost the equivalent of a pair of 24s and more even bass.  Or buy a pair of 18s now and add a pair of HS-24s later where the 24s would be up front and the 18s in back.  And if you want the real deep bass and smaller cabinets, that would be sealed and I oh so love the sound and tactile feedback of my sealed 18s and 24s.  Then again, if you’re not interested in single digits or are on concrete, then a ported 18 may be the way to go.  You’ve definitely have some options and won’t go wrong listening to the experts on this forum.

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9 hours ago, SME said:

Let me remind you of what I said in a previous post:

The IB-24 is not designed for "small" boxes.  It doesn't have the motor strength or the coil power handling to perform well in a small sealed enclosure.

If you want low and loud in a small box, you have to spend $$$ on drivers and amp power.  If you want to go 24" sealed in the cabinet size you're contemplating, then you should save up for the HS-24 at least.  I'd still recommend building two of those boxes at least if you want them to keep up with the rest of the system.

Or you could save up even more for 2 x SHS-24 and get good performance from both in a single 16 cuft cabinet, if you use a huge amp.  See how this works?  Low, loud and small cost lots of money!

Yeah I know, again, the 24" was just alluring because of the shear size ;) I think, starting of with the single (and extentions to a second) 18" Ultimax sealed/ported or 21" B&C ported is definitely a great way to start. Decision to be made in the next few weeks. The 24" will be something for the future. Definitely hoping to get there. Although that definitely depends on how the first 2 subs perform. 2 "developments":

There is someone on AVS forum selling 2 x Obsidian 18" Subwoofer, which look like very decent woofers (not the best, but surely not a bad start). They would cost the same to ship etc, as 1 Ultimax. 

I realised my new size measurements are exactly the same as 1 Othorn or 1 Tuba HT. They don't dig as deep, and I'm not planning them for now, but it's good to know I do have the option.

1 hour ago, dgage said:

I was thinking of my follow up response.  I kept thinking, sure a couple 18s would be phenomenal and may fit into his budget now.  If you were to buy 4 HST-18s, you’d have one of the best subwoofer systems on the continent.  Or a pair of HS-24s would do the same though the quad 18s in the corners would provide more even bass in most rooms.  

The double 18" and upgrade to an extra pair of 24"ers is definitely alluring. Something for later, but a nice prospect. I doubt I would need the advantage of ported if I go for 4 subs (especially if I also decide to throw a few crowsons into the mix). 

1 hour ago, dgage said:

Realize that we’re talking about bass systems in the top 1% in the entire world.  That is going to cost some money but then again, is a value compared to what most uninformed consumers pay for their “high-end” audio equipment.

Money is always relevant, but in my case.. well I decided that I don't mind spending all the money I have into this. If everything goes well I'll have almost everything in my surround upgraded up to a point that I cant improve significantly without spending a fortune. Maybe on my amps, but oh well. Rather spend it on subs ;) 

1 hour ago, dgage said:

 Either way, this system should last you 10 years and likely many more than that so I’m of the opinion to save your money and get what you want.  Or even better, start with a pair of 18s and add a pair of 18s later and you have almost the equivalent of a pair of 24s and more even bass.  Or buy a pair of 18s now and add a pair of HS-24s later where the 24s would be up front and the 18s in back.  And if you want the real deep bass and smaller cabinets, that would be sealed and I oh so love the sound and tactile feedback of my sealed 18s and 24s.  Then again, if you’re not interested in single digits or are on concrete, then a ported 18 may be the way to go.  You’ve definitely have some options and won’t go wrong listening to the experts on this forum.

I have the option for 2x 460L enclosures, but all the other ones will have to be significantly smaller. Or to be more precise, the ones in the back or rear would have to be. So it's definetely sealed there. The fronts has options, and a lot of spare room. I have a wall of 4,2 meter in a 60cm deep protrusion. Let's say the subs cant be higher than 90cm, I have 2270L of space in the front (-the material of the enclosures and drivers etc). All the fronts speakers would lay on top of that. So for future reference, I can build my 460L enclosure now, and still have a lot of spare room (2x times 675L) for very far future upgrades. Something I'm definitely not against.

So maybe I should start of with the 460L enclosures, sealed. It's simple and much more forgiving against mistakes. Next step would be another pair of small sealed cubes for in the back

OR I could make the 18" hole in my main 460L enclosures bigger so it could fit a 24" er (HS24 probably), and make small sealed boxes for the 18"ers I took out. That way I can start of with 1 18" er in a small design, which I can manage with my specific enclosure measurements, then build a second one. This could be managed within the near future. Maybe even instantly if the Obsidian measures well etc. After that I can see what I want next. Another pair of 18" ers, a 24"er, if so which one, maybe a horn, etc etc. 

 

I'll start modelling the 5 options now (Obsidian and Ultimax in sealed and ported, and the B&C driver as it's looking like a good option), all in the same 460L enclosure.

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I think I'm doing something wrong.. I have no idea where though.. This is the "transfer function magnitude" I get. I was comparing Obsidian vs Ultimax, and included the SHS24 for reference. How is it possible that 2500USD driver performs so badly? Worse than  Doesnt matter what kind of Volume I enter.. I tried to check if I messed up that driver inputs, but I cant find anything. Any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong? 

Or am I not wrong, is it just because the strength of the SHS lays in it's power to handle 5 times the RMS and its much higher Xmax? 

Also just finished my biggest exams, so I got time to read up. I'm reading the complete winISD beginners guide, which is already really useful! Primarly on how to design ported boxes. It's looking a lot simpler! Might find the answers to my questions above too. If you have a more indept guide on everything concerning designing speakers (or a good site) I would love to hear it. Interesting stuff! Also designing my custom height speakers at the moment, and it looks like going ported is the way  to go there too (if youre interested: it will probably end up being a 15" Eminence kappa 15LFA woofer in a 62L box tuned to 60hz. On top of it I'm gonna place a HF200 driver paired to a PH4525 horn. Crossover will be active.) 

image.thumb.png.53b923b76470bd96321a6f00c9948287.png

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The "Transfer Function" screen shows simulated response *relative* to output in the high frequency limit while ignoring inductance.  All the comparison is showing you is the simulated *relative shape* of the response without EQ under ground plane conditions and not the absolute sensitivity or efficiency.  Even then, the shape shown is not accurate for the upper frequencies because the simulation of inductance effects in general is very inaccurate.  I suggest ignoring the transfer function screen because the information shown there is largely irrelevant if you are using EQ.

Try looking at the "SPL" screen instead.  Ensure that both drivers are configured with comparable "power" inputs. Note that comparable are not necessarily equal.  The DC resistances of the drivers that you are comparing are quite different.  This is where you need to really understand the relationships between voltage, power, and impedance.

The "power" input in WinISD is actually converted to a voltage, the voltage that would deliver the specified power into the DC resistance (Re) of the driver:  V=sqrt(Power*Re).  So if you have a max voltage spec for your amp, you can input it as the "power" by computing Power = (V)^2/Re.  That gives you an upper bound on potential output.  From there, you can check on excursion to ensure it is within limits.  And lastly, you need to look at the impedance curves to figure out how much actual power will be demanded from the amp at different frequencies.  For a given voltage and impedance, actual Power = V^2/Z.

The amp specs should list power capability for one or more impedances.  If the impedance you are looking at is lower than what the amp specifies a power rating for, it's probably not a good choice of amp to use.  Realize also that most amps have exaggerated power specs.  They may give a number that's only valid for very short-term "bursts", which may not even be long enough to complete a full cycle at 20 Hz.  This is the case with many pro sub amps which are more typically used only at 30-40 Hz and up.

The question of real world amp performance is a whole other issue but is very important to consider as part of the "system" design.  As long as the driver is within its excursion limits, the ultimate performance depends a lot on the real world performance of the amp(s)together with the impedance profile of the sub.  Amps also have sensitivity roll-off in the lowest frequencies, which is important if you are trying to push below 20 Hz and especially the single digits.  As with drivers, more capable amps are usually more expensive, but price is absolutely no guarantee of performance.  The best sub amps, IMO, are from Powersoft and SpeakerPower.  Neither are cheap.  Plenty of people get by with the inexpensive Behringer amps, but realize that those amps don't deliver as much power into low frequencies as their specs claim.  Have a look around here and AVSForum for measurement data.

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6 minutes ago, SME said:

The "Transfer Function" screen shows simulated response *relative* to output in the high frequency limit while ignoring inductance.  All the comparison is showing you is the simulated *relative shape* of the response without EQ under ground plane conditions and not the absolute sensitivity or efficiency.  Even then, the shape shown is not accurate for the upper frequencies because the simulation of inductance effects in general is very inaccurate.  I suggest ignoring the transfer function screen because the information shown there is largely irrelevant if you are using EQ.

Try looking at the "SPL" screen instead.  Ensure that both drivers are configured with comparable "power" inputs. Note that comparable are not necessarily equal.  The DC resistances of the drivers that you are comparing are quite different.  This is where you need to really understand the relationships between voltage, power, and impedance.

Yeah, I figured it out few minutes after I posted this. I also took account for the DC resistance. Reading up on voltages and amps is my next goal. I think I understand the main principles, but really implementing it into the modelling and taking account for it will take some more reading. The winISD help page had a few things to say about it, and it also has a few graphs I have never used before that could maybe show this driver/amp relation over the spectrum. But again, will have to read up (and start from the beginning) to really grasp it. 

6 minutes ago, SME said:

The "power" input in WinISD is actually converted to a voltage, the voltage that would deliver the specified power into the DC resistance (Re) of the driver:  V=sqrt(Power*Re).  So if you have a max voltage spec for your amp, you can input it as the "power" by computing Power = (V)^2/Re.  That gives you an upper bound on potential output.  From there, you can check on excursion to ensure it is within limits.  And lastly, you need to look at the impedance curves to figure out how much actual power will be demanded from the amp at different frequencies.  For a given voltage and impedance, actual Power = V^2/Z.

Thanks for the tips! I already tried to find some specs about my amp, but no voltages to be found. I might try to calculate it again. Reason why I'm  not spending all too much time on it is, because  my priority is the sub at the moment. After I have this (and maybe the second one), I'll start looking into the right amp. 

6 minutes ago, SME said:

The amp specs should list power capability for one or more impedances.  If the impedance you are looking at is lower than what the amp specifies a power rating for, it's probably not a good choice of amp to use.  Realize also that most amps have exaggerated power specs.  They may give a number that's only valid for very short-term "bursts", which may not even be long enough to complete a full cycle at 20 Hz.  This is the case with many pro sub amps which are more typically used only at 30-40 Hz and up.

The question of real world amp performance is a whole other issue but is very important to consider as part of the "system" design.  As long as the driver is within its excursion limits, the ultimate performance depends a lot on the real world performance of the amp(s)together with the impedance profile of the sub.  Amps also have sensitivity roll-off in the lowest frequencies, which is important if you are trying to push below 20 Hz and especially the single digits.  As with drivers, more capable amps are usually more expensive, but price is absolutely no guarantee of performance.  The best sub amps, IMO, are from Powersoft and SpeakerPower.  Neither are cheap.  Plenty of people get by with the inexpensive Behringer amps, but realize that those amps don't deliver as much power into low frequencies as their specs claim.  Have a look around here and AVSForum for measurement data.

I'll have a look out for those amps! And have a read on the forum. I'll put up some search notifiers for a few good choices so I can grab a decent one when it hits the market locally. The iNukes go for dirt cheap, both in general as on the second hand market over here. I could get an iNuke NU4-6000 for 300 eu or less. Sometimes I see an iNuke NU6000 for only 150.. I'm gonna read up on those first, but even if it only delivers 25% of what it states, it would still be 750-800W/channel. 

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Seems like powersoft is sold quite often in my area, so when I upgrade my amp I can probably go for one of those (for example a powersoft digam
d1604 2 x 800 watt for 350). 

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@Ricci , can you weigh in on a comparison between the Ultimax and the Obsidian 18d2? I have the option to buy a pair of OA 18"s for the price of 1 Ultimax. I know the Obsidian isnt as good as the Ultimax, but in this case (I only have the budget for 1 ultimax or the 2 OA) it wouldn't be a bad start, and a good option to reach my 4x subs project a hell of a lot sooner. See the modeling below. It's in a 150L enclosure as I would use them as the back subs which are limited in their size. I modeled the Ultimax in the same volume (for comparison), and in the enclosure it would normally go (460L)(the front enclosures are gonna be almost thrice the back enclosures). I adjusted the Re of the Obsidian driver to reflect the load to the amplifier. 

I know you tested them both, which is why I'm asking specifically. 

image.thumb.png.d2da1fc5fb8f906f06e5893b10bdc88d.png

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On 1/18/2018 at 5:33 PM, Droogne said:

@Ricci , can you weigh in on a comparison between the Ultimax and the Obsidian 18d2? I have the option to buy a pair of OA 18"s for the price of 1 Ultimax. I know the Obsidian isnt as good as the Ultimax, but in this case (I only have the budget for 1 ultimax or the 2 OA) it wouldn't be a bad start, and a good option to reach my 4x subs project a hell of a lot sooner. See the modeling below. It's in a 150L enclosure as I would use them as the back subs which are limited in their size. I modeled the Ultimax in the same volume (for comparison), and in the enclosure it would normally go (460L)(the front enclosures are gonna be almost thrice the back enclosures). I adjusted the Re of the Obsidian driver to reflect the load to the amplifier. 

I know you tested them both, which is why I'm asking specifically. 

image.thumb.png.d2da1fc5fb8f906f06e5893b10bdc88d.png

I'll save you some time. The Obsidian 18's have not been in production for around 4 years now. The company (Obsidian) is no longer a company. The OA 18 was a great IB driver but was massively overlooked prior to OA being closed. 

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2 hours ago, Electrodynamic said:

I'll save you some time. The Obsidian 18's have not been in production for around 4 years now. The company (Obsidian) is no longer a company. The OA 18 was a great IB driver but was massively overlooked prior to OA being closed. 

IB? As in: good to be used in, or is this really an IB driver specifically? I'm looking at it for a small (140L) sealed in this case. Looks to fit really nicely. I have the opportunity to buy a pair of unused drivers via the AVS forum, so it's not a problem they have been discontinued. 

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16 hours ago, Electrodynamic said:

I'll save you some time. The Obsidian 18's have not been in production for around 4 years now. The company (Obsidian) is no longer a company. The OA 18 was a great IB driver but was massively overlooked prior to OA being closed. 

You act like you know so much about Obsidian. :)  

Hint - Electrodynamic was also the owner of Obsidian but decided to combine the car and home audio offerings under the Stereo Integrity brand.

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7 minutes ago, dgage said:

You act like you know so much about Obsidian. :)  

Hint - Electrodynamic was also the owner of Obsidian but decided to combine the car and home audio offerings under the Stereo Integrity brand.

I know ;) Input straight from the source. Right out of the tap! I'm getting a shipping quote tomorrow normally, so if that stays reasonable I just need an opinion on the woofers before I make a decision. Going directly to 2 decent woofers seems like the right choice. Better spread into the room, and almost no loss in output/woofer, with a total improvement due to the 2x 18"s instead of 1. Then after that I have like 6 months to prepare and look into all the designs out there for my main 2 subs (which I'm hoping to be "permanent").

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7 hours ago, Electrodynamic said:

Too bad really about the OA 18's as their Qts was literallya perfect .707. Couldn't be more perfect for IB. :D 

OA18v2.JPG

 

Obsidian_18_front.JPG

Would you recommend using them in "small" sealed too? Like 140-160L. 

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6 hours ago, Infrasonic said:

Lol.... no.

image.thumb.png.60fd1d04b53f3c8430b280615ed4f24b.pngimage.thumb.png.1d6e6f0d731cded7f3cc0b01f238350c.png

 

The reviews one here, and the included graphs show it does perform OK (considering I would have 2 instead of 1). It compares similar to my modeling. A clear low in a few db in the lower end, which it can make up by being paired parallel and by being.. wel 2 woofers instead of 1 ;) The difference is quote bigh though.. bigger than I modeled, so it does make me question it a bit more (especially as both of them wouldn't be exactly equally cheap to 1 UM1822, more like 13, times the cost of 1.. and for that money I could buy a B&C 21" driver)

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On 1/21/2018 at 3:27 AM, Droogne said:

Would you recommend using them in "small" sealed too? Like 140-160L. 

 

14 hours ago, Infrasonic said:

Lol.... no.

 

7 hours ago, Droogne said:

 

 

.....graphs show it does perform OK

Working at all and being "recommended for" are two different things.

 

I know you're on a budget. Don't lose sight of what you are trying to accomplish, whatever that may be.

 

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4 hours ago, Infrasonic said:

 

 

Working at all and being "recommended for" are two different things.

Yeah I kinda phrased that badly.. I meant it more like, would it be beneficial to have 2x lesser subs than 1 good one. Aside from the fact if they are in the recommended enclosure or not. As I understood, people are always recommending 2x 15"ers above 1x 18"er . I applied that logic to this case. 2x lessers 18"ers in a too small enclosure vs 1x superior in a better suited. To be clear, I'm not planning to stay with the 2 lesser subs, they would also be a stepping stone to a bigger and badder sub. I still don't have a clue on their shipping price though.. So anything is possible yet.

Also problematic.. It seems like the Ultimax is out of order, so even I do order it, it could take a while before I would have it :/ 

Quote

 

I know you're on a budget. Don't lose sight of what you are trying to accomplish, whatever that may be.

 

I have noabout what I truely want to accomplish.. I doubt anything will dissapoint me.. I have a deep craving, but even when I crank the bass on my mains (only 40hz) I'm already suuuuper hyped. Doubt any sub I choose wil dissappoint me. So I think I better pick one, go for it and base my future opinions on that.

Also I actually dont really have a budget. More like priorities in my upgrading plan. Looking into actually finding someone who can sell me the Ultimax in case the Obsidians turn out to be expensive to be worth it. Also looking into the B&C 21"ers. They are above budget though,  like 30%more expensive than the Ultimax. Ultimax is 450, the B&C DS115 and SW115 both 600. Seeing a lot of people on AVS going mad because the prices of the Ultimax went up, but they are so darn more expensive over here (and still literally the cheapest option umf :/ ) Depressing to see the prices you are able to get all the good woofers ;) Is there maybe a good second hand site in the US where they would sell good woofers like the Ultimax? Shipping them in might end up cheaper than buying new over here lol.  

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@SME @Infrasonic 

 

(about the UM1822)

"Hello

 

The driver isn’t available at the moment with PE. Expected delivery date is 21.02.2018.

I can import it for you along with our next shipment around May/June 2018.

Price  530,00 EUR/pc gross + shipping cost."

 

This was the last European deliverer of the Ultimax... Seems like this one is not an option anymore ;) 

I'm already discussing with Eng-399 on the AVS forum (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2777425-4-18-cubic-ft-flared-slot-ported-build-using-4-b-c-21ds115-4-drivers-10.htmlabout modelling his 21DS115 build to my size. I think I'm gonna make my box a little bit longer as to copy his exact volume, that way I'll be sure. Already looking into all the tools I'll need. Maybe I'll start a "build preparation thread" later this evening. Only reason why I wouldn't go through with it is if the shipping for 2x Obsidians get ridiculously cheap (which I doubt). Also got a new opportunity to earn 2k USD (I don't really have a job, so all my speaker budget comes from participating in medical studies for money.), and if that goes through I might hit you guys up for a good quality amp to drive a pair of the 21" B&Cs (the one I have now is 2x550 4ohm). Will probably also order a Crowson (single to start with) and maybe look into reviving the riser project (or build a second B&C). Lot's I'm able to do with an extra 2k lol. 

 

 

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It seems like the universe decided for me, a car dealer who I had contacted before, sent me that he had the option to sell me 2x B-stock Sundown Audio zv4 18D2 subwoofers (http://data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=57). I bargained down to a price where I just had to see if it was as good as my first instincts led me on to believe. I send Ricci asking what he thought about the driver, in comparison with the UM1822 and B&C 21DS115 (both ported and sealed) and he was told me the Sundown was definetely better than the Ultimax for a 15hz F3 design. Considering I'm paying less for the sundown (only 50% resail price), that seems like a good sign. See below the data-bass graph (in the same enclosure)

image.thumb.png.ed65059418b387d4ce94b051fb9a7164.png

Their response is almost equal when taking out the difference in RMS handling (2000 for the sundown), a 0,4db advantage for the Ultimax at 15hz in my "small" enclosure (160L). Big difference would be that, although they both have almost the exact excursion curve, the Sundown would have 13mm excursion advantage.

 

When modeled the Sundown also shows a lot more potential. Quite complex to just draw up some graphs to compare them, but it performs better in every way in compared to the Ultimax and the DS115. The DS115 shows some more potential from 50-100hz, but only by 4db (and it's not really a range I want the sub to perform in). Logically the Sundown does outperform the Ultimax in the upper ranges. When taking a generous 24 m/s rear port velocity, I end up with a 3db and 13mm excursion advantage with the Sundown vs Ultimax (same power). The real competition is between the DS115 and the Sundown as those are the ones I can buy at the moment. Both perform very well down to 15hz in my cabinet, but the Sundown would be left with a whole lot more excursion (about 8mm) and potential to be driven up higher. Also the B&C is 1,5 times as expensive!

 

Thoughts?

  

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Nice find!  Can you buy four of them while you're at it?  :)

Those could make some very nice sealed subs as well, if you are still interested in trading away output for extra extension.  If going sealed, I'd definitely recommend at least four of them.

Also, those drivers look remarkably similar to the SI HST-18 (they maybe share many of the same parts?) and would probably pair well with them, so when it's time to augment them, you could buy SI HST-18s.

While the B&Cs have impressive capabilities, the fact that you have some serious mid-bass capability already via horns means that you don't need as much mid-bass from your subs, so the Sundown zv4s and other drivers optimized for deep-bass make a lot of sense.

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44 minutes ago, SME said:

Nice find!  Can you buy four of them while you're at it?  :)

Those could make some very nice sealed subs as well, if you are still interested in trading away output for extra extension.  If going sealed, I'd definitely recommend at least four of them.

 

44 minutes ago, SME said:

Also, those drivers look remarkably similar to the SI HST-18 (they maybe share many of the same parts?) and would probably pair well with them, so when it's time to augment them, you could buy SI HST-18s.

Both made in North Carolina ;) 

44 minutes ago, SME said:

While the B&Cs have impressive capabilities, the fact that you have some serious mid-bass capability already via horns means that you don't need as much mid-bass from your subs, so the Sundown zv4s and other drivers optimized for deep-bass make a lot of sense.

Sadly no :( They are B-stock so only those 2 :/ but I have the time to send all European retailers to see if they dont have a pair laying around. Nice thing about the Sundowns is that, I can follow the natural evolution while still keeping all my options open with compromising. What I mean by that, is that I talked about a lot about the choice about: start with small sealed in the backs (which are a much simpler build to start with as someone new to DIY), or big ported in front. Well as it turns out can do both now. I can start with 2x small sealed for in the back (I would place them in the front for now, but that's what I'm calling the design), and I'm saving some money on the next pair of subs. Couple that with the fact that I'll have a perfect pair to keep me content till I'm sure what my budget will be (what could take a few months), means that I could: save some money and decide to put the Sundown under the mains in the front (in the 400L enclosures), ported or sealed (in this case, that choice could be made later), and buy 2x Ultimaxes to put in the small sealed boxes where I'm putting the Sundowns in for now (will have to figure the enclosure build that can accommodate this). OR I could decide to keep the sundowns small sealed in the back, be patient and save up... and buy me a pair of 2x 24" ers. Just because I can. Again, one of the main cost this year will be to buy and ship my MEHs. It's impossible to guess how much thats gonna be so I need to keep that budget open. But I could very well end up with a pair of 2x 24" in the front. Let's hope ;) Who knows someone cant handle their power and is willing to sell them ha! Anything can happen. Another nice things about the versatility off the sundowns is that I can easily take them with me when I move, the B&C21DS115 would always need such a big enclosure that I'd probably end up having to sell them. The sundowns I could move from a large ported to small sealed (if I do decide to go to the ported mains that is).

The sundowns can take some serious power though! Whoa! My amp can in no way handle that (2ohm capable and bridgeable, 2x 350W 8ohm), so that "suggest me an amp" thread might be closer than was planned.

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The Sundown ZV4 is a solid driver. Similar to the HST from Stereo Integrity but both are built out a bit differently. In order to make use of the excursion available on that driver you will need a serious amplifier. Especially in compact sealed.

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21 hours ago, Droogne said:

It seems like the universe decided for me, a car dealer who I had contacted before, sent me that he had the option to sell me 2x B-stock Sundown Audio zv4 18D2 subwoofers

  

 

Nice. :)

 

Now that the hard part is over with....

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