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B&C 21DS115

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Yep saw this a while back. Thanks for posting it though. I've got some testing done with this driver in a vented cab that I'm working towards getting posted. Hopefully in the next 2 weeks. I haven't had a chance to do a comparison against the 21sw152-4 stuff yet either. I really want the sealed test so it will be the exact same cab. My quick feeling is that the ds115 behaves about exactly as we would expect from the specs when compared to the 152. Higher distortion, heats up worse due to the smaller 4 layer coil versus the big 6" diameter. Overall the 152 might still be a bit better performer but it is about $100 to $150 more expensive also.

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6 hours ago, lawbadman said:

Would this sub be suitable for the Othorn? Or is the 21SW115 a better choice? 

I ask because both are basically the same price. And I can't afford the 21SW152....

Not sure if the large VC option needs to be selected when simulating the DS115. If so then the DS wont work in the Othorn. BUT if not then yes it will work just fine in the Othorn. But I would wait to hear back from Ricci.

 

I know the DS115 does not perform the same at all in a few simulations so not 100% on the two being that close. Simple ported they will work just fine.

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11 hours ago, lawbadman said:

Would this sub be suitable for the Othorn? Or is the 21SW115 a better choice? 

I ask because both are basically the same price. And I can't afford the 21SW152....

The 21SW115 is definitely not a match. 

The 21DS115-4 should be ok. 

 

David,

the response should be somewhere in between the LE modeled and without LE modeled in HR. 

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15 hours ago, Ricci said:

The 21SW115 is definitely not a match. 

The 21DS115-4 should be ok. 

 

David,

the response should be somewhere in between the LE modeled and without LE modeled in HR. 

I couldnt remember if we were using the lossy Le option or not. When doing so it definitely changes things. Ported cabinets it didnt matter too much but in this horn it did.

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8 hours ago, chrapladm said:

I couldnt remember if we were using the lossy Le option or not. When doing so it definitely changes things. Ported cabinets it didnt matter too much but in this horn it did.

I woukd definitely use it when modeling any subwoofer. You have to remember that the final result will likely be a bit smoother due to losses and unaccounted for variations in the real speaker. I like to look at sims with and without both and make sure both look ok, but the LE model will be closer.

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15 hours ago, Ricci said:

I woukd definitely use it when modeling any subwoofer. You have to remember that the final result will likely be a bit smoother due to losses and unaccounted for variations in the real speaker. I like to look at sims with and without both and make sure both look ok, but the LE model will be closer.

SO the first model is the 21DS115 vs SW152. It some areas the DS looks better. I pushed both to about 20mm but I was just doing a quick sim from what I had. Then I selected the lossey Le in Wizard and you can see the DS in black verse the Le in red. Not a huge difference but enough to make sure you simulate it is all. For me the DS115's are about the same price as the 18IPAL's. So thats why the DS's are very interesting. I am not ready to buy any more speakers for now since I still have to finish my Skhorn first. BUT I do want another pair of horns to build come January. I just keep forcing myself to make a reason to get the IPAL's.:) 

Screen Shot 09-22-17 at 04.21 PM.PNG

Screen Shot 09-22-17 at 04.22 PM.PNG

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I got a DS21-4.   Going to build a ported cab tuned to 20hz.   Models suggest roughly 12ft3.   Going bigger just seems to create a larger hump at tune.  

Any advice on the best size for 20hz?   I could go up to 20ft3.

The WW cab is around 11ft3, but I can't tell if that was for best performance or to keep size reasonable.  

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Does it really need that much space. I remember looking at doing 15cuft for 15hz and around 10/11cuft for 20hz. So 20cuft seems like that is more than is needed going by memory. Although I was looking at the SW152. DS115 does simulate very similar though. I am away for work so I cant look at comparisons on simulations to help sorry.

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Thanks.   I'm pretty sure 20 is way more than needed.   12 makes a nice model without a HPF.  14 looks great after the HPF is added. 

But once it's in a room, in a corner, that 12 cube model might be perfect.  

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The WW cab is a good data point and just about the Goldilocks size for this driver for HT. Honestly I wouldn't go any bigger for this driver for a vented cab tuned near 18-20Hz. It just doesn't need it. 10-12ft seems about perfect. Any bigger would hit the point of diminishing returns. Don't forget that you'll likely get some lift below 30Hz in room. 3 to 6dB in the 16-20Hz range is a good general guess.

20ft would be great for 2 drivers though. 

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Hello !

A quick question about the 21DS115-4, I'm gonna build at the end of August, 2 Othorns loaded with 21DS115-4.

But I'm a bit afraid with the impedance curve shown by Hornresp, it's around 2.5ohms on the whole Othorn bandwith, going as low as 2.2ohms, will the reality be the same ?
I'm gonna use a Proline 3000 at the beginning which isn't really built for 2ohm operation but easily does 4ohm all night long and can survive to 2.6ohms (driving 3x 8ohm speakers per channel but not recommended).

Should I try it or should I go for the B&C 21DS115-8 or the LaVoce SAN214.50 to be careful ? Already got the amp by the way !
They sim well, both close to the B&C 21SW152-4 but less motor force than the B&C 21DS115-4

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Re of the driver is 2.2 ohm so a System DCR of the same is only natural. I think you have to expect that this could be the case. 

OTOH if your amp is fine driving 3 x 8 ohm nominal, those woofers are also likely to have an Re lower than 8 ohm. Use their Re in Ohm’s law instead to check the resulting impedance your amp is fine with driving today. Or even better, sim them to see System DCR and impedance curve (which woofers and in what sort of enclosure do you use?)  If less than 2.2 ohm, you’re most likely good to go. 

Otherwise there’s always the FP14000 clones:

https://smiths.en.alibaba.com/product/60686863904-805150637/lab_gruppen_2CH_fp14000_bass_amplifier.html

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I didn't made those tests myself but I read a lot of reviews about this amplifier, it can do 2.6ohms, some people even pushed it to 2 ohms (4 drivers per channel, PD154 in HD15 if I remember well).

I did exactly what you said before posting here ahah, forgot to mention it, in Hornresp, 4 PD154 in HD15 in parallel gets to 2.4ohms.

But I was thinking that maybe, driving 1 speaker at 2.2 ohms would be easier for an amp than driving 4 at 2.4 ohms.
I know it can do it but how much time ?

I can get the LaVoce SAN 214.50 30€ cheaper maybe I should give it a try !

Less output VS caution, difficult choice.

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20 is way more than it needs, but keep in mind, the size of the box will help the size of the port. Almost all ported boxes are going to experience compression with enough power. A 20 cubic fox tuned at 20 could have a very large port compared to a box half the size. The hump is going to flatten with compression at higher volume. If you have the space, bigger will be better in this regard, but how much it helps will only show at higher power levels at around tuning.

 

 

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Yeah one-third of that should be more than enough if you have enough power and can make a slot port.

 

TBH I don't think you need  to worry about the difference between 2.2 ohm and 2.4 ohh but sure, the LaVoce SAN 214.50 is a worthy alternative if you want to be (overly) cautious. Power handling is the same, Xmax just a bit more, Xmech quite a bit less. As you know, less motor force can be an advantage in a vented enclosure but a disadvantage in a tapped horn. In the real world though, I doubt there will be enough of a difference for buyer's remorse, especially if 10% cheaper.

 

If you do go down the route of the LaVoce, it'd be great to hear your impressions in due course.

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Alright, I think it's going that way !

I'll give a try to the LaVoce then.

There are some advantages I can actually see :

- If one day I get a better amp and build 2 more Othorns, I can put 2 of those in parallel per channel
- A little bit cheaper
- Less stress on my cheap amp with 8ohm operation, less power consumption as well
- Better impedance for my cables, less signal loss (got 20meters of 4mm²/AWG11)

The only disadvantage I can see is that the speaker will only have 1200W available (a little more on crest, 1500W measured) but it's way enough, Xmax is out at 1700W, it's a 1.5dB loss (2dB compared to a 21DS115-4 with 1700W).
And as Josh said in his review :

Quote

Distortion starts to increase dramatically once pushed past Xmax

I'm not losing that much by not sending 3400W peak into it, avoiding distorsion, power compression and motor noise.
If I want more output I'll go for more cabs !

Thanks for your time NiToNi, I'll make a post when everything will be tested !

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No worries and good luck with your project. Although just so you know all your options (or to make your life harder depending on how you see it), let me point out that there’s also a 21DS115-8 available (8 ohm nominal and Re 5.1 ohm)...

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Yes I know, definitely the hardest choice, they sim exactly the same in the Othorn.

Here in France the best price I can get on the 21DS115 (same price for both versions) is 383€/unit.
The LaVoce SAN214.50 is at 353€/unit.

Do I prefer to save 30€/speaker or do I prefer to trust B&C quality ?

Can't find that much reviews about the LaVoce speakers, if I really want to play safe, 21DS115-8 is the way to go.
But Josh testing seems positive about the LaVoce.

Maybe if he see this he can share us his thought !

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€383 for the 21DS115-4 is a very good price. Would you mind sharing a link?  Toute Le Haut Parleur charges €450 for the 4 ohm version so I guess you're looking somewhere else:

https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/speaker-b-c-speakers-21ds115-4-ohm-21-inch.html

I agree with you that at least on paper it is pretty much a wash between the 21DS115-8 and the SAN214.50 for your particular application (Othorn). The LaVoc is cheaper but if you like to change your stuff out ever so often, the B&C drivers may hold their value better in the second-hand market.

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