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rbtrucking

Thinking of upgrading my subs, currently running full vintage Klipsch theater.

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rbtrucking    2

Title says it all, right now I am running Klipsch Klipschorns as mains, La Scala as a center and Chorus 1 as rears. I currently have the R-115SW subwoofer (x2) by klipsch but it really can't keep up with the rest of the system in terms of spl. As of right now I am heavily thinking about 2 JTR orbital Shifters as subs. Everyone I talk to on the Klipsch forums and pretty much anyone that knows a lot about audio says since I have fully horn loaded speakers up front I should without question get a horn loaded sub. 

 

The main reason for the subs would be home theater use as the K-horns have extraordinary bass on their own and when listening in 2 channel I usually just play them straight with no sub or anything else .

 

What are your thoughts/recommendations? 

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MemX    97

You need to add some additional info!

 

 

Budget?

 

Space available?

 

Size of room?

 

Volume level of playback?

 

Separate amps or built in?

 

Happy to DIY / commission a third party to build something? 

 

Or do you prefer buying something straight 'off the shelf'?

 

What EQ do you have?

 

 

I'm unfamiliar with any of the Klipsch stuff but IMHO, most things would sound better with a sub that digs well below 30Hz. 

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rbtrucking    2

You need to add some additional info!

 

 

Budget?

 

Space available?

 

Size of room?

 

Volume level of playback?

 

Separate amps or built in?

 

Happy to DIY / commission a third party to build something? 

 

Or do you prefer buying something straight 'off the shelf'?

 

What EQ do you have?

 

 

I'm unfamiliar with any of the Klipsch stuff but IMHO, most things would sound better with a sub that digs well below 30Hz. 

Well my budget would be around 5-6k since that's what 2 orbital shifters is going to cost me. I would prefer built in amps and the size of the room is 21x19 (i know the orbital shifters will be overkill but the speakers I already have are overkill anyway I just want subs that can match their level of output) 

 

I'd really rather not do any DIY im not experienced with wood working or anything like that. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by what EQ do you have. If you mean what's the frequency response of the rest of the speakers, they can go down to 35 hz

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MemX    97

EQ is the electronic software that tailors the in-room response of all the speakers so it is flat (or as flat as can be) across the frequency range, rather than being a peaky, boomy mess due to room-modes etc :)

 

It's usually called Audyssey or YPOA (in the Yahama receivers) for example, but can also be a computer-based system IIRC.

 

 

If you did go with a sub, you could cross the mains over around 100Hz or so, taking some pressure off them and letting the sub take the strain of reproducing the lower frequencies. 

 

For $5-6k, you could build dual Stereo Integrity 24s (http://stereointegrity.com/product/hs24-24-subwoofer/) in a nicely finished box or two (depending on whether you built 'dual opposed' or singles) and an amplifier with suitably crazy power to run them, perhaps one of the SpeakerPower rack amps (that don't have noisy fans IIRC).  You'd also be able to afford an EQ solution to lift the bottom end as required and tame any peaks caused by your room, and probably even have enough to upgrade your power line to a 230-250v line (assuming you are in the USA) to ensure you had no restrictions due to power supply..

 

 

Of course, if you don't want to DIY, you could look at the Deep Sea Sound subwoofers:

http://www.deepseasound.com/

which are run by a member on this forum, @dgage:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/user/2747-dgage/

 

They use the drivers above but come fully constructed and nicely finished, and have plate amps built-in.

 

 

You should also look at some of the stuff that BossoBass does, who is also a member on this forum:

http://www.bossobass.com/Bossobass.com/Home.html

 

I think he is somewhat at the higher end of anyone's budget, but he majors on flat response down to 3Hz, so that should give you all you ever want for movie playback.

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Ricci    647

Since you would like a turn key system and have the room/budget for JTR OS-LFU's that's a solid choice. Other options for sealed and bass reflex systems are plentiful, some of which were mentioned by MemX above. If you have your heart set on a turn key horn loaded bass cab the OS-LFU is probably your best bet most of the others do not extend as low. You won't be lacking headroom with a pair that's for sure.

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rbtrucking    2

EQ is the electronic software that tailors the in-room response of all the speakers so it is flat (or as flat as can be) across the frequency range, rather than being a peaky, boomy mess due to room-modes etc :)

 

It's usually called Audyssey or YPOA (in the Yahama receivers) for example, but can also be a computer-based system IIRC.

 

 

If you did go with a sub, you could cross the mains over around 100Hz or so, taking some pressure off them and letting the sub take the strain of reproducing the lower frequencies. 

 

For $5-6k, you could build dual Stereo Integrity 24s (http://stereointegrity.com/product/hs24-24-subwoofer/) in a nicely finished box or two (depending on whether you built 'dual opposed' or singles) and an amplifier with suitably crazy power to run them, perhaps one of the SpeakerPower rack amps (that don't have noisy fans IIRC).  You'd also be able to afford an EQ solution to lift the bottom end as required and tame any peaks caused by your room, and probably even have enough to upgrade your power line to a 230-250v line (assuming you are in the USA) to ensure you had no restrictions due to power supply..

 

 

Of course, if you don't want to DIY, you could look at the Deep Sea Sound subwoofers:

http://www.deepseasound.com/

which are run by a member on this forum, @dgage:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/user/2747-dgage/

 

They use the drivers above but come fully constructed and nicely finished, and have plate amps built-in.

 

 

You should also look at some of the stuff that BossoBass does, who is also a member on this forum:

http://www.bossobass.com/Bossobass.com/Home.html

 

I think he is somewhat at the higher end of anyone's budget, but he majors on flat response down to 3Hz, so that should give you all you ever want for movie playback.

Oh ok I see what you mean now. Ya, I am using Dirac Live, the full version. I am running an Emotiva XMC-1 AVP and an Emotiva XPA Gen 3 5 channel amp. Those are some really great options you shared, I appreciate it. I didn't even know those companies existed. 

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rbtrucking    2

Since you would like a turn key system and have the room/budget for JTR OS-LFU's that's a solid choice. Other options for sealed and bass reflex systems are plentiful, some of which were mentioned by MemX above. If you have your heart set on a turn key horn loaded bass cab the OS-LFU is probably your best bet most of the others do not extend as low. You won't be lacking headroom with a pair that's for sure.

See this is where I am kind of at a crossroads because that orbital shifter is HUGE if I could get away with going with JTR's sealed subwoofer it would save me a ton of room but many people I have talked to are telling me that since all my other speakers are horn loaded it will never sound right and all this. If you could, would you give me your input on this? Do you think a horn loaded sub is absolutely necessary? 

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I can chime in and say that the people who tell's you that a horn speaker has to be paired only to a horn sub probably have no idea what they are taking about.

A very good choice for you would be JTR 4000 ULF which adding the gain from the room will probably be more than you have ever dreamed to hear. And less space than double Orbit Shifters LFU.

Edit: make it two. Probably 2 would be scary!

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rbtrucking    2

I can chime in and say that the people who tell's you that a horn speaker has to be paired only to a horn sub probably have no idea what they are taking about.

A very good choice for you would be JTR 4000 ULF which adding the gain from the room will probably be more than you have ever dreamed to hear. And less space than double Orbit Shifters LFU.

Edit: make it two. Probably 2 would be scary!

Ya that thing is amazing and I looked into that one too but it's every bit as big as the Orbital Shifter. I was thinking of perhaps looking into something smaller. How do you think the Captivator S2 would do? 

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SME    208

Is the room closed off or does it open to the rest of the house?

 

A pair of S2s will probably do the job pretty well, but it mostly comes down to just how hard you are going to push them.  The nice things about sealed is that you can get a lot of free usable LF extension from room gain, and they are small enough that you can fit them in your space and maybe even add more if it's not enough.  The down side is that sealed generally cost more for the same output, and may also have noticeably higher distortion.  (This can be debated and is probably not at an issue at all at low sound levels.)

 

Another high performance brand that's maybe at the high end of your budget is Funk Audio.

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rbtrucking    2

Is the room closed off or does it open to the rest of the house?

 

A pair of S2s will probably do the job pretty well, but it mostly comes down to just how hard you are going to push them.  The nice things about sealed is that you can get a lot of free usable LF extension from room gain, and they are small enough that you can fit them in your space and maybe even add more if it's not enough.  The down side is that sealed generally cost more for the same output, and may also have noticeably higher distortion.  (This can be debated and is probably not at an issue at all at low sound levels.)

 

Another high performance brand that's maybe at the high end of your budget is Funk Audio.

Ya, that's what everyones been telling me that direct radiating is always gonna be more distortion. I decided to just pull the trigger on the Orbital Shifters, placed my order last night! Lol, I'll just have to figure out how to fit them in my theater room.

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MemX    97

Nice :)

 

I don't think you're going to be disappointed with them... :lol:

 

You may like to secure any loose objects around the house - pictures on walls, china vases, your great aunt's crockery...  lol

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rbtrucking    2

Nice :)

 

I don't think you're going to be disappointed with them... :lol:

 

You may like to secure any loose objects around the house - pictures on walls, china vases, your great aunt's crockery...  lol

Haha, ya I already have people in my house complaining about the Klipsch subs so I can only imagine how it will be with these..

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dgage    67

By the way, I just want to say I don't agree with the comment about sealed having more distortion than ported. Yes the ported may have more output above tune for comparable size subs but the sealed, assuming some DSP and power is thrown in, will likely have more low-end output. Just seemed like a pretty matter of fact comment that I'm not used to seeing on this very informed board.

 

Other than that, sounds like you'll have one heck of an impressive system. Enjoy!

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shadyJ    19

Sealed typically have disproportionately more distortion versus ported around the frequency band of the port's output, all else being equal. This is because the moving mass of the driver in the ported subwoofer doesn't move very much to resonate the air in the ports. Since it isn't moving very far, the coil stays close to the gap where its excursion is very linear. By contrast, in a sealed sub, the onus is entirely on the cone to move air in that frequency band, so the excursion is much higher, and the voice coil has to move a lot more, so you get flux modulation and distortions resulting from tensing suspension, among other issues. So it is not just that ported have more output at frequencies of port-generated output, but even for the same SPL ported subs have lower distortion percentage. This is an advantage of porting, but, of course, ported designs carry their own disadvantages vs sealed.

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SME    208

By the way, I just want to say I don't agree with the comment about sealed having more distortion than ported. Yes the ported may have more output above tune for comparable size subs but the sealed, assuming some DSP and power is thrown in, will likely have more low-end output. Just seemed like a pretty matter of fact comment that I'm not used to seeing on this very informed board.

 

Other than that, sounds like you'll have one heck of an impressive system. Enjoy!

 

My comment was that sealed "may also have noticeably higher distortion", and that this statement "can be debated".  I didn't mean for people to take that as an absolute statement.

 

Oh, and I was also implicitly comparing sealed to horn-loaded in addition to ported.  I know a few people here have suggested that bass horn sound has a certain "quality" about it that differentiates it from other types of subs.  Why that may be the case is again a matter that could be debated.

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dgage    67

It was the combination of statements by you SME that you mentioned "MAY also have noticeably higher distortion" with the follow on comment by rbtrucking "that direct radiating is ALWAYS gonna be more distortion." I'd hate to have another reader come across these two statements later and come to the conclusion that sealed always has more distortion than ported without understanding there are pros and cons to each design, as you mention SME.

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SME    208

It was the combination of statements by you SME that you mentioned "MAY also have noticeably higher distortion" with the follow on comment by rbtrucking "that direct radiating is ALWAYS gonna be more distortion." I'd hate to have another reader come across these two statements later and come to the conclusion that sealed always has more distortion than ported without understanding there are pros and cons to each design, as you mention SME.

 

 

Oh, I see what happened now.  I admit I was surprised to see him move quickly.  I thought there'd be a bit more discussion.  I was leaning toward recommending either something sealed or the Cap ULF to him, but I wanted to get more info about his room and playback habits.  Oh well.  Any of these things will be a huge upgrade above the Klipsch subs.

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MemX    97

I'm looking forward to reports of household devastation the first time he really cranks them up  lol

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Ricci    647

My comment was that sealed "may also have noticeably higher distortion", and that this statement "can be debated".  I didn't mean for people to take that as an absolute statement.

 

Oh, and I was also implicitly comparing sealed to horn-loaded in addition to ported.  I know a few people here have suggested that bass horn sound has a certain "quality" about it that differentiates it from other types of subs.  Why that may be the case is again a matter that could be debated.

 

I'd like to clarify for any lurkers that the discussion is specifically about harmonic distortion. There are various forms of distortion in a speakers reproduction though HD is often considered most important. Anyway...

 

Horns do seem to sound/feel different than direct radiators. Most people who've heard them tend to agree. The common wisdom seems to be that it's related to lower HD but I don't think it is, or at least that's not the whole ball of wax.

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dgage    67

Thanks Ricci (though my iPad wanted to call you Rocco:)). And being a "sealed" guy all my life with the pros and cons that come with that, the horn loaded subs I've heard aren't my cup of tea but others love that sound. I guess that's why there are so many makes and models of speakers and subwoofers on the market. :)

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mojave    12

Ya, that's what everyones been telling me that direct radiating is always gonna be more distortion. I decided to just pull the trigger on the Orbital Shifters, placed my order last night! Lol, I'll just have to figure out how to fit them in my theater room.

I recently installed two Orbit (not Orbital  :) ) Shifters LFU's in a home theater. Within a month I heard dual Orbit Shifter LFU's, dual Captivator 4000ULF's, and dual S2's. They all are a lot of fun, but my favorite is the OS LFU. To be fair, I didn't hear enough movie clips on the 4000ULF's,

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shadyJ    19

I'd like to clarify for any lurkers that the discussion is specifically about harmonic distortion. There are various forms of distortion in a speakers reproduction though HD is often considered most important. Anyway...

 

Horns do seem to sound/feel different than direct radiators. Most people who've heard them tend to agree. The common wisdom seems to be that it's related to lower HD but I don't think it is, or at least that's not the whole ball of wax.

What do you think the audible difference between horn loaded designs vs others can be attributed to, if not low HD?

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