Revolt Sound Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 9 hours ago, SME said: Assuming I understand the dimensional drawing, the ports are 3" (76 mm) wide, so adding 30 mm to each side would make the ports 140% bigger in cross-sectional area. Vent tuning frequency scales with square root of port area, so tune will be ~118% or around 1/4 octave higher. That's like 35 Hz vs. 30 Hz. This assumes a pure vented alignment, and I'm not sure how the 6th order aspect will come into play. So we did some calculations and think this should give pretty much the same response as the original. Depth and height of the cab will stay the same but the overall length will be 1440mm. We will also be using 18mm ply for the whole cab so we have taken that into consideration. Do you think this will work how we intend it too? 27 minutes ago, radulescu_paul_mircea said: Regarding limiters, for pro use, I suggest to make use of all of those limiters. The X-max limiter is excellent to be used when you force the system and you hit the peak limiter or maximum voltage quite hard. It will help you with keeping the high pass where it should be no matter what the input stage is doing. Thats right, if a mic gets dropped on stage or someone unplugs something when they shouldn't it offers some protection but mainly its for protection against rubbish DJ's that like to have the mixer in constant clip. I regularly use the VX and Tmax limiters and I have never fried a driver and with the kind of events we do we get to really push the limits of our cabs. Here are some 44M20 logs from a 3 day festival we did last September, the first one is the whole device and the last 4 are the individual channels. we were driving 4 8r Beyma 18p1200nd per channel all channels driven with the same input/output settings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted March 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 I did some quick modeling and it looks like the tuning would come in at about 31.5 or 32Hz from the original 28 or 29Hz tune. A little more than I had guessed, but the response doesn't change much. It looks good. I'd say this modification would be barely noticeable if both were side by side and you have a little extra vent area. Go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted March 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 6 hours ago, radulescu_paul_mircea said: I managed to explode the final stage of one 44m10 playing my SKhorn XL version using Ipal driver squire fast , but the 20K is way more stable in 2 ohms. The problem was bus pumping from the very high back EMF. I would suggest you to used 4 ohm drivers and use each sub on each channel instead of bridging it . This way you will use all the DSP capability of the amp and you can make more configurations like cardio and end-fire. The difference in stability is not big, a bridged class D amp will be a tad more stable at high reactive loads , but the back EMF will discharge in the endstage instead of the capacitors so for the same output power , more heat will be generated. Ouch blown amp stages...I've had similar happen with unbridged smps amps. This is partly why I avoid running them like this for heavy duty bass now. It seems to shorten the life span quite a bit and induce more failures. Most of the pro amps I've used seem to be fine on bass duty, half bridged until down around 25 to 30Hz with normal duty cycle music. Lower impedance loads / higher current requirements/ higher sustained power and especially very deep bass frequencies below 25Hz start to cause issues. With usual music primarily above 30Hz you may never notice. I go straight to bridged for subs anymore to avoid the possibility under demanding circumstances. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolt Sound Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Ricci said: I did some quick modeling and it looks like the tuning would come in at about 31.5 or 32Hz from the original 28 or 29Hz tune. A little more than I had guessed, but the response doesn't change much. It looks good. I'd say this modification would be barely noticeable if both were side by side and you have a little extra vent area. Go for it. Thanks Ricci, was this for the simple mod of making the vents wider or the latest mod I posted with wider and longer vents? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Simple mod...how much longer did you make them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolt Sound Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 The second option was a port width of 87mm and port length of 595. After replacing the 12mm ply for 18mm the last 35mm would be split between the rear chambers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Hmm. Man I think its splitting hairs. Should be fine. Your talking a couple hertz tuning difference if that. The vented chamber is relatively forgiving of small changes. Id say roll with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolt Sound Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 54 minutes ago, Ricci said: Hmm. Man I think its splitting hairs. Should be fine. Your talking a couple hertz tuning difference if that. The vented chamber is relatively forgiving of small changes. Id say roll with it. We decided we are going to just make the vents wider. Going to start cutting at the weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 Making the vents longer will lower the tuning. The rough scaling is square-root of 1 divided by length. So increasing the length will counteract the effect of making the vent wider. I doubt you'd be making them 1.4 times as long though, so its effect will probably be less than from widening the ports. My guess is that shifting the tune up 1/4 octave or less around 30 Hz won't be noticeable most of the time, but I'm sure counterexamples can be found. For example music with strong sustained tones at 27 Hz or something are probably going to sound quite a bit different. I guess that could be a thing with some music genres. On the plus side, I reckon the wider ports will give you another dB or so of low-end output without port compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radulescu_paul_mircea Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 I have a question for you guys about sine sweep measurement pressure level. what does it really show? the SPL value is a peak one? Looking at the measurements for the SKhorn on the SP6000 amp, the CEA2010 values and the maximum swept values are within half a dB. From my tests, the crest factor of the sweep is 6 dB and the level it shows is 3 dB lower than the peak and 3 db over LZF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted March 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 Sine sweep SPL value is not a peak figure. None of the ones shown here are peak. Crest factor is 3dB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolt Sound Posted March 24, 2019 Report Share Posted March 24, 2019 Some progress shots. We have decided to do a shoot out between the B&C 21SW152, RCF LF21N551 and 18 Sound 21NLW9601. I will share the measurements and results in a couple of weeks. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radulescu_paul_mircea Posted March 25, 2019 Report Share Posted March 25, 2019 Can't wait to see your comparison results, to compare them to mine. I don't have the NLW9601 driver, this should be extremely powerful and efficient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolt Sound Posted March 25, 2019 Report Share Posted March 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, radulescu_paul_mircea said: Can't wait to see your comparison results, to compare them to mine. I don't have the NLW9601 driver, this should be extremely powerful and efficient The 18 Sound driver is the one I am hoping to perform the best as I get the best deal on it, we will see though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted March 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 The 21NLW9601 models really well in this cab. Looking forward to your thoughts on the cab and the 3 drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_ms Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 [deleted] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_ms Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 On 3/25/2019 at 1:03 PM, Revolt Sound said: The 18 Sound driver is the one I am hoping to perform the best as I get the best deal on it, we will see though. Myself am very keen on learning about your impressions of the RCF LF21N551 in the SKhorn, but looking forward to a rundown on all 3 units used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radulescu_paul_mircea Posted April 10, 2019 Report Share Posted April 10, 2019 I just realized that using this sub with 2 vents covered, I get the same or more output from it than from a JTR 4000ULF from 13.5 hz up. I cannot bring it in my apartment though, it doesn't fit into the elevator and I live at the sixth floor, so there is no way this will work. But it means it's time for a single driver Skram build 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolt Sound Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 Ok so cabs are finished, I have the 18Sound drivers but will have to wait about 3 weeks for the RCF and won't have my hands the B&C until next week. Will update with 18Sound results over the weekend. Could anyone please tell me what %THD I should expect to measure at high SPL with these cabs? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted April 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 It's impossible to predict the distortion behavior. The measurements I took with the Ipal drivers looked really good. Your cab is slightly bigger so that should help but the drivers are different. Measurements for the win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahuzz13 Posted April 11, 2019 Report Share Posted April 11, 2019 Hey Ricci, just sent you a PM hopefully you can help me out. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolt Sound Posted April 14, 2019 Report Share Posted April 14, 2019 Ok so took some measurements with the 18 Sound NLW9601 today. This one is the unfiltered response: This one is with HPF 24Butt @25hz and LPF 48LR @120hz: There is no smoothing on the magnitude or phase traces and all vents are open. Next time I will EQ out the lump at 208hz and try a less sharp LPF. When playing music there seems to be quite a bit of noise coming from the horn mouth (not good noise), has anyone els experienced this? this seems to be present at low power and is much more obvious at higher power (around 3600w) Have we messed something up? I have wadded the rear chamber and there is no noise at all from the vents on the sides. Do we need to add wadding to the front middle vents of the cab? It almost sounds like the drivers are moving too fast and the air can't escape, I'm not sure. The noise aside, the sub and bass from the cabs is really nice, very fast, deep and effortless. I will be going back on Thursday to try and find the source of the noise, any suggestions are much appreciated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted April 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2019 The measurements look good. That's a smooth response from 30-150Hz with no smoothing or processing. Looks right. Were these taken outdoors? I'm not sure what to say about the noise. I don't recall anything like that from mine. All of the air noise I've encountered is from the ports at really high output near tuning. When airspeed gets high. The horn section has a lot more area and the airspeeds are a lot lower. I wouldn't expect anything like that especially at lower volumes. Could be an air leak, a loose panel, wire touching the cone, or a driver issue. Might be worth double checking that everything is sealed good and tight especially at the driver mounting area. I never put any material in the upper section of mine. Is it something that you hear with you ears close to the cab or something that is audible from 10+ feet away? Is this with the low pass filter in place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revolt Sound Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 15 hours ago, Ricci said: The measurements look good. That's a smooth response from 30-150Hz with no smoothing or processing. Looks right. Were these taken outdoors? I'm not sure what to say about the noise. I don't recall anything like that from mine. All of the air noise I've encountered is from the ports at really high output near tuning. When airspeed gets high. The horn section has a lot more area and the airspeeds are a lot lower. I wouldn't expect anything like that especially at lower volumes. Could be an air leak, a loose panel, wire touching the cone, or a driver issue. Might be worth double checking that everything is sealed good and tight especially at the driver mounting area. I never put any material in the upper section of mine. Is it something that you hear with you ears close to the cab or something that is audible from 10+ feet away? Is this with the low pass filter in place? Hi Ricci, Yes measurements were outside in a field, closest building was about 15-20m behind the cab. The noise is present at low power (around 500-1000w) and can be heard at 10+m away as an annoying artifact but when you are next to the cab its more of a noisy rattly sound . I have a suspicion that it could be an air leak from the unused bolt holes we put in for different drivers, I thought that the foam gasket around the driver would do a good enough job of sealing them. It could also be the cables that we have ran through the horn to the other driver chamber. I have the day off on Thursday so im going to check everything and try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricci Posted April 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 Hmm...That sounds like a bad air leak, or a panel resonance perhaps one did not get enough glue in the joint. Something is not right. Investigation is in order. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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