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Ricci's Skhorn Subwoofer & Files

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On 16-11-2016 at 8:57 PM, Ricci said:

All of these drivers look serviceable to varying degrees. There are more I'm sure but I didn't simulate everything on the market.

 

B&C 18PZB100

B&C 18NW100

B&C 18RBX100

Faital 18XL1600

18 Sound 18LW2500

B&C 18SW115

18 Sound 18NLW9601 / 9600 / 9600C

TC Sounds Pro-5100

B&C 21DS115

18 Sound 21NLW9601 /9600 / 9000C

B&C 21SW152

B&C 21SW150

18Sound 21ID

B&C 21IPAL

Funk TSAD-21v2 & UH21 :o

How would the cheaper drivers (like the B&C 18PZB100) change the response? I'm guessing it will probably affect the lower end the most? 

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The 18PZB100 doesnt look bad at all in the Skhorn. It rolls off earlier than the 21SW152 but only a few hz. But is very flat similar to the 21SW152. The 21/18TSAD and 18GUJ are all very peaky. I dont think they look that good but I guess could be EQ'd to suit. Still wish the 5100 was available. These drivers look good also.

FP 18HW1070

Beyma 18SW1600Nd

BC 18TBW100 looks ok also. Rolls off a bit earlier but not a LOT different then the PZB. I have been simulating almost every driver for this design. I looked at trying to build a single driver version also for my living room. Tried to see if I could get the design to not get too big but perform similar to the 21DS115 in 350l 15hz. 

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37 minutes ago, chrapladm said:

The 18PZB100 doesnt look bad at all in the Skhorn. It rolls off earlier than the 21SW152 but only a few hz. But is very flat similar to the 21SW152. The 21/18TSAD does not look very good at all in this design. BUT all the rest of the BL monsters that Ricci mentioned do look good.

Oh, great! In the (far / hypothetical) planning stages of building something like the SK-, Gjaller- or Othorn, and a SKhorn with 2x of those ridiculously cheap (240eu) drivers would be a winner I think  (extension, availability and price. Also the option to upgrade the drivers one day would a +). On what do you base this responses? Are there some graphs out there? I can get almost all B&C drivers for very cheap (and with great discounts), so if I could compare them that would be pretty practical. 

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For me the best value is the 21SW152 drivers. If you can get those cheap then there ya go. I have based all my opinions on Hornresp simulations. I tend to simulate a LOT to hopefully one day build something. I will be building my own Skhorn in Aug/Sept using the 21SW152's. Probably have to wait until Xmas to have the SP6000 amp to power the sub though.

 

For BC options I would have to say these are the best option from best budget to the ultimate option.

18TBW100

18NW100

18SW115

21SW150

21DS115

21SW152

21IPAL

If I had 21IPAL money I would see if I could get a pair of 5100's. But thats me. The other option would be to get in touch with Funk and ask if he can make some more powerful (Bl) custom drivers. I asked about this before and he did say it was possible for a good price. I looked at trying to find a 5100 equivalent and it looked like Funk could build me one for around $1000 or less. That is less than a 21IPAL and less than the 5100. 

 

Lots of options though.If you have something specific I will simulate it and show you the comparison to the SW152 if needed.

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2 hours ago, chrapladm said:

 I looked at trying to build a single driver version also for my living room. Tried to see if I could get the design to not get too big but perform similar to the 21DS115 in 350l 15hz. 

Are the plans for the single version out there? Cause that would make moving them a lot easier. 

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No they are not out yet. Probably going to be a while until they are out. Ricci is always busy with a 1000 things. BUT he did say you could just cut the design down the middle and have a single version. SO I have been simulating that and trying to decide between that design and the large ported.

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image.png.5d27f33e0dbaedb4d4f31bc3e1f0f698.png

image.png.8ca3961ffed4b00d51f65a92b47e2e1f.png

Thanks for helping out! These are the prices from the shop I'm buying. They also use a pretty hefty discount when buying several items (so another advantage when buying cheap but more). I do intend to build 2 of them, but budget wont stretch enough yet to allow 4x of the more expensive (SW152 etc) drivers. If I do decide to build them, they would only be used don to 20-25hz tops, they are not intended for HT. 

 

PS know I have you here, what about non-PA drivers? I already have 2x 1hefty 18" subs in my HT, which are sealed so not really appropriate for PA use, but it would be cool to be able to put them in a SKhorn cab when needed (maybe a lot of work but oh well). I have the Sundown Audio ZV4 18D2 drivers. 

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2 minutes ago, chrapladm said:

No they are not out yet. Probably going to be a while until they are out. Ricci is always busy with a 1000 things. BUT he did say you could just cut the design down the middle and have a single version. SO I have been simulating that and trying to decide between that design and the large ported.

Single version would be sweet. Would make it pretty HT appropriate (for me at least)

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8 minutes ago, chrapladm said:

I would buy the PZB100 if budget is tight. It looks good in this design for sure. 

Could you maybe PM/post a screenshot of the modelling? 

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6 minutes ago, chrapladm said:

Here ya go. This is 1watt into 4ohms and 32hz tune.

5ad5f388ab7c7_ScreenShot04-17-18at10_37PM.PNG.5e5e0d34cefd8542328bd93e116baf84.PNG

Thanks! And what about the 1 vent open configuration? And what about the max continuous output in this config? The system list lists this as the setup with best 20hz output. 

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If you use something like the PZB100 drivers you will probably lose around 10-12dB in maximum output when compared to the version I have with the 21Ipal's.

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11 hours ago, Ricci said:

If you use something like the PZB100 drivers you will probably lose around 10-12dB in maximum output when compared to the version I have with the 21Ipal's.

10-12dB! Thats a serious compromise! Equating to half the perceivably volume!

Ricci, how far behind dB wise do you think the 21ds115 and 21sw152 might be compared to the ipal21? Not so simple question i guess..... what amps are you using with he ipal to get results?

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21 minutes ago, Droogne said:

That is indeed a too big compromise for the budget you save. 

Generally speaking yes!

Generally speaking again.... If you made the cabinets with free mdf(like i can get) and your a good craftsman and you wanted to brew something up for CHEAP and FUN then why not?

This designed is fairly serious though and for the CHEAP and FUN enthusiasts maybe something more simple would give greater returns I suspect. CHEAP and FUN guys maybe better served buy a more compromised(and way more simple) bass reflex design I would think.

Horse's for course's I guess!!!

P>S> my "CHEAP and FUN" categorization is not pointed at anybody posting here. Certainly does bring people I know personally to mind in my town that do awesome and amazing things for next to nothing although there creations are not fees-able in the professional realm.

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2 minutes ago, menace said:

Generally speaking yes!

Generally speaking again.... If you made the cabinets with free mdf(like i can get) and your a good craftsman and you wanted to brew something up for CHEAP and FUN then why not?

This designed is fairly serious though and for the CHEAP and FUN enthusiasts maybe something more simple would give greater returns I suspect. CHEAP and FUN guys maybe better served buy a more compromised(and way more simple) bass reflex design I would think.

Horse's for course's I guess!!!

Using 2x very cheap divers like that could maybe a way to directly start with 2x cabs instead of one. But as 2x cheap cabs would have less output than 1 good one, I have a feeling it would not be worth it.

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Depending on what your doing two cabs could be better overall for bass distribution. For me the IPAL's are not worth double the cost of the SW152. They give I believe about 2db here and there more output. If you want to maximise SPL per volume then the IPAL's are worth it. BUT we all have different criteria to work with. Some have more budget than room. And some vice versa.

 

BUT now that I have re-simulated the Skhorn (final sim page updated)with 18PZB, 18NW100, 18DS115 and 18IPAL I have to say the NW100 looks better than the PZB for single vent options. And if wanting more than I would go with the 18DS115. I am very interested in doing a single version for my living room if I can fit it in. I would get the 18NW100 myself simply because I had a need for them for another build. I looked at building a large ported cabinet for the living room using the NW100 and down the road upgrading to 18IPALS. But its always hard to upgrade and spend the money when money comes so slowly. PLUS I think I would be quite happy with single version Skhorns in my living room. Just need to finish up some other projects and then build them.

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29 minutes ago, chrapladm said:

Depending on what your doing two cabs could be better overall for bass distribution. For me the IPAL's are not worth double the cost of the SW152. They give I believe about 2db here and there more output. If you want to maximise SPL per volume then the IPAL's are worth it. BUT we all have different criteria to work with. Some have more budget than room. And some vice versa.

 

BUT now that I have re-simulated the Skhorn (final sim page updated)with 18PZB, 18NW100, 18DS115 and 18IPAL I have to say the NW100 looks better than the PZB for single vent options. And if wanting more than I would go with the 18DS115. I am very interested in doing a single version for my living room if I can fit it in. I would get the 18NW100 myself simply because I had a need for them for another build. I looked at building a large ported cabinet for the living room using the NW100 and down the road upgrading to 18IPALS. But its always hard to upgrade and spend the money when money comes so slowly. PLUS I think I would be quite happy with single version Skhorns in my living room. Just need to finish up some other projects and then build them.

Can you actually use this in your living room?

I only have a small 2kw lab gruppen amplifier in my living room which i can make shut down from trying to pass too much current while driving my speakers nearly till there limits and making my ears ring a "little" too much. Some classic 3 ways and a couple of peerless 12 inch subs.

Sure I could easily accept more more bass but that much?

Maybe i should grab the couple of 21sw152s throw them in a simple sealed box and a couple or lab 64's i have sitting there for "THE PROJECT" and test your method out. But I can't help but think I would break things not least my ears!

Can you REALLY use this stuff in your living room?

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I dont look at stuff like this because I am using it to its max in a HT setting. I use this stuff in order to have more spl but at lower excursions. SO if I wanted to have a large ported cabinet I could do the same. Probably smaller volume but at also a higher distortion. This may not bother some but it does me. I could also just use a large Xmax driver in a ported cabinet and be happy but my experience has shown me that I prefer pro audio drivers from what I have experienced for ULF. For the pair of 18NW100's you only need about 1000watts to max them out. 118db roughly at 18hz. BUT for me and wanting the lower tune for my singles I do prefer the 18DS115. It doesnt have as much max SPL but it does look better for the lower tune in the volume thats available. So here is the 18PB Z verse the 18DS115, one vent hitting Xmax for both. And the below picture is with about 300watts for the PBZ and 2300 watts for the DS115.

 

But for me these are still a great option for size and low end. And since I will have a pair of DIY SH's eventually above them I think these are great choices. I do like a bit of overkill also. :D

Screen Shot 04-19-18 at 08.15 PM.PNG

 

BUT I do like looking at this sort of thing also because I do eventually want to build something like a pair of BC218's.(outdoors) So for now these should hold me over. :)

 

 

@Ricci did you get a chance to test the 21DS115?

 

I ask because I wonder if the large coil simulation needs to be used at all when simulating this driver. I would think not as BC seem to be always good with lower inductance drivers. I am moons away from building the single driver version of this horn design. I will be building the normal dual Skhorn with SW152's. So I am mainly wondering from a educational standpoint regarding simulations. And if I can manage to fit the single driver version in my living room I am liking the 18IPALS the most.  

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41 minutes ago, chrapladm said:

I dont look at stuff like this because I am using it to its max in a HT setting. I use this stuff in order to have more spl but at lower excursions. SO if I wanted to have a large ported cabinet I could do the same. Probably smaller volume but at also a higher distortion. This may not bother some but it does me. I could also just use a large Xmax driver in a ported cabinet and be happy but my experience has shown me that I prefer pro audio drivers from what I have experienced for ULF. For the pair of 18NW100's you only need about 1000watts to max them out. 118db roughly at 18hz. BUT for me and wanting the lower tune for my singles I do prefer the 18DS115. It doesnt have as much max SPL but it does look better for the lower tune in the volume thats available. So here is the 18PB Z verse the 18DS115, one vent hitting Xmax for both.

 

SO for me these are still a great option for size and low end. And since I will have a pair of DIY SH's eventually above them I think these are great choices. I do like a bit of overkill also. :D

Screen Shot 04-19-18 at 08.15 PM.PNG

 

BUT I do like looking at this sort of thing also because I do eventually want to build something like a pair of BC218's. So for now these should hold me over. :)

Fair enough, headroom and low low distortion never hurt anybody! Still though lol;-)

BC218's sensitivity at 20 hz isnt any greater than those drivers in free air? Is there reasonable plans around for those?

How constrained are you for space? Can't you just build a big long simple* horn across the front of your room below the screen? Instead of all these fancy designs?

Don't take me the wrong way I'm just trying to understand a few things I have wondered for a long time with regards to the insane lounge room systems i have been reading about a while now. I've lurked long with out speeking often......

Cheers.

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For me I am building for two different setups. One is for outdoors . I dont mind the size so long as I can afford the drivers.(Maul) So yes a single fold would work but so would many other deigns. Regards to my living room that design is more constrained. So single Skhorn may work but may not just not 100% sure yet. Othorn would almost fit also but I like the extension of this Skhorn design.

 

The BC designs have some extra gain due to their size and boundary loading/gain. I have always like FLH's but cant always fit them. So for me a pair of Skhorn's could work just fine for my outdoor setup. And indoors there are many designs that could work. And if needed down the road I could always drag the living room setup out for extra SPL.

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2 minutes ago, chrapladm said:

For me I am building for two different setups. One is for outdoors . I dont mind the size so long as I can afford the drivers.(Maul) So yes a single fold would work but so would many other deigns. Regards to my living room that design is more constrained. So single Skhorn may work but may not just not 100% sure yet.

 

The BC designs have some extra gain due to their size and boundary loading/gain. I have always like FLH's but cant always fit them. So for me a pair of Skhorn's could work just fine for my outdoor setup. And indoors there are many designs that could work. And if needed down the road I could always drag the living room setup out for extra SPL.

OK, BC218 for outdoors, that make sense... Beasts of things they are!!!

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