maxmercy Posted May 5, 2016 Report Share Posted May 5, 2016 http://www.newnewsstories.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1507428-follgott-s-build-18-x-peerless-xxls12-3.html#post24226660 JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted May 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 Next time Mike is over we'll see if he can tell the difference between these two settings: The verdict is in, and for the first time ever I was able to stump Mike. Neither of us could tell any difference between the two curves in my room. I played Lone Survivor at reference twice, and then switched EQ and played it again twice. I then bumped the sub trim by +10db and played the scene twice again with each setting. I repeated this experiment with Carbon Prevails. Since my floor, furniture, and riser don't resonate much below 20hz, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. SUBWOOFER RISER!! Take that, Scott!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgage Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 Flat to sub 5-Hz, is that all 24,000w and a gagillion subs gets you? And you still complain about a lack of tactile feel. Riser indeed!!! Just kidding! That looks incredibly impressive and I hope you are really happy with the results. If I ever get up to your neck of the woods, I'd definitely like to experience your system. I'm sure it's amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted May 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 Flat to sub 5-Hz, is that all 24,000w and a gagillion subs gets you? And you still complain about a lack of tactile feel. Riser indeed!!! Just kidding! That looks incredibly impressive and I hope you are really happy with the results. If I ever get up to your neck of the woods, I'd definitely like to experience your system. I'm sure it's amazing. You're welcome any time man!! I'm happy with the change because flat to 10hz does make a noticeable difference. It's not nearly as dramatic of a difference as I was hoping for, but there are some things I'm planning with the riser to address that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatshaft Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 Luke, I'm looking forward to seeing what you will do re: the riser...really, really looking forward! I have the exact same problem as you I have a 10hz bw48 slope on my subs! Being on concrete really sucks the bag! As you I'm flat to 5hz but it's all upstairs that's felt the most! My eye is big time following what you're going to do Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 This is a very interesting data point. Thus far, any assessments I've seen concerning the audibility of content < 10 Hz have been compromised by the inability to rule out secondary mechanisms of perception like feeling a floor vibrate or hearing the walls of the room shake. I imagine the walls of your room were shaking below 10 Hz, but I guess it wasn't enough for you or Mike to notice a difference with or without the curve flattened. While it would be good to have more data like this before making an overall judgement, the implication is that it might be best to aim for 10 Hz+ with subs and use tactile transducers to cover the very bottom of the spectrum. Maybe I should consider going ported and investing more money into Crowsons? Though I'm not sure I can build big enough ported boxes to reach to 10 Hz. FWIW, I'm also on a suspended floor, so sticking with sealed is probably still worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted May 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 This is a very interesting data point. Thus far, any assessments I've seen concerning the audibility of content < 10 Hz have been compromised by the inability to rule out secondary mechanisms of perception like feeling a floor vibrate or hearing the walls of the room shake. I imagine the walls of your room were shaking below 10 Hz, but I guess it wasn't enough for you or Mike to notice a difference with or without the curve flattened. While it would be good to have more data like this before making an overall judgement, the implication is that it might be best to aim for 10 Hz+ with subs and use tactile transducers to cover the very bottom of the spectrum. Maybe I should consider going ported and investing more money into Crowsons? Though I'm not sure I can build big enough ported boxes to reach to 10 Hz. FWIW, I'm also on a suspended floor, so sticking with sealed is probably still worthwhile. For me the take away is how much the room, mostly whether you're on concrete or a suspended floor, impacts perceivable feedback. Another factor is the furniture being sat on, as I've had some pieces of furniture really resonate nicely while others don't at all. I tested Mike with a few scenes but I've personally run each EQ setting against almost a dozen movie clips with content below 10hz and I didn't detect even the slightest difference on any of them. To rule out "me" as the problem I like to blind test a few other folks. If you're on a suspended floor I'd definitely give sealed a try first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan611 Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 Like we talked about last night, I preferred the non EQed version of Lone Survivor vs the EQed version. Can't explain it. Also, if the walls were shaking I didn't hear them. I still think that your room sounds so good, I'm not sure I'd chase the white rabbit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgage Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 My tag line is you don't listen to our subs, you EXPERIENCE them, An early question I ask when someone mentions wanting more tactile feel is are they on concrete or a suspended floor. If on concrete I mention they won't get near the tactile feel as if on a suspended floor. I just try to manage those expectations from the beginning. Or in the case of a recent test on different construction of risers, I try to give advice on constructing a riser if that is a possibility. Also, I talked to Nyal last week and he doesn't like going with 1x4s sideways as he doesn't like the potential resonances small cavities can sometimes have. And he also always suggests two layers of 21/32" OSB with a layer of Green Glue between them. And he says it takes about 30 days for the Green Glue to dry to its effective and stiffer form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted May 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Some compression sweeps with just the 21s and their typical 22hz LPF (xo point to the Othorns): There was a 24db increase in volume from the first sweep to the last. The last sweep resulted in this: Going off the data, here's the actual volume increase at each frequency: 5hz: 23.7db 10hz: 23.2db 15hz: 24.6db 20hz: 23.8db The most compression in the mic was at 10hz, which makes sense since that's where the signal is actually boosted the most. This also shows me that there's zero compression from the subs yet, which isn't surprising since excursion looked to be just below 1.5" peak to peak at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgage Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 VERY IMPRESSIVE!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan611 Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Holy smokes Luke!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted May 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Holy smokes Luke!!! Here's what we're testing next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted May 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Here's what we're testing next! One of the scenes we'll test this on is from Kon Tiki where the whale shark makes its first pass under their raft: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SME Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Bah! Luke, none of this means anything cuz you used car audio subs. Heheheh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan611 Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Bah! Luke, none of this means anything cuz you used car audio subs. Heheheh. Lol, nice. Looking forward to it. I replied on AVS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatshaft Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 My prediction is you'll see squat diddily doo between the 2 That's cement for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted May 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 Bah! Luke, none of this means anything cuz you used car audio subs. Heheheh. Yeah I obviously have no idea what I'm doing. Sealed subs crossing over to tapped horns crossing over to ported mids crossing over to coaxial compression drivers...my whole system is a joke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted May 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 It appears these aren't fully broken in yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Well looks like someone has some more fun awaiting them in a week or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted July 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Well looks like someone has some more fun awaiting them in a week or so. Dragon Blade certain gives the 21s a workout! Fatshaft sent me a clip of the movie. This is at reference, and for my subs to be flat to 10hz they have +10db of PEQ applied at 10hz. In addition to that, this was played with the sub trim bumped +15db!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted September 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 The last few weeks I've done a ton of measuring and tweaking to the integration of the sealed and horns. Instead of sharper crossovers with the sealed beginning to drop off quickly at ~25z, I raised the crossover points and switched from BW4 to BW3 filters. Here's what the sum (red) and individual sweeps look like between the sealed and horns at the moment: Now instead of the Othorns being almost completely solo from 30hz+, the sealed setup augments the response up until about 50hz. From 30-40hz I added about 6db of additional headroom. I pushed things to pretty close to the limit last night: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan611 Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 I can't wait to get over there and experience the new integration man. You mentioned changing the crossover points; looks awesome man!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeamdman Posted December 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Had Mike over for a movie last night but first I had a little test prepared for him. A subjective preference test between two options:1. Sealed subs flat to 10hz WITHOUT the Crowsons2. No subs with the mains running full range WITH the CrowsonsAll scenes were run at reference, and here's how the two systems measured: Both me and Mike preferred option #2! Gotta love concrete floors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndersShadow Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Wish I had "Crowson money" myself for the same reason lol. I just cant afford as many as I'd need, and with my wife wanting a sectional soon I'd need even more lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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