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radulescu_paul_mircea

Questions about othorn,keystone, Xoc1 th18, DSL118 and others

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Hello guys,

I was triyng to build a pair of Othorns before Christma2s but my plans didn't go that well because it seems I can't find nowhere to buy ( for now) a pair of 21's fron B&C or 18sounds.

So, now i still want to build a pair of subs and I was looking in other projects. First I saw the Xoc's Th18 and then the Keystone which I like it more because it is easier to build and it kinda looks cool ;)

When I compared the Spl results from Walter's measurements I saw it can reach around 130 dB/1m GP and has a FR down to 35Hz.same with Th18. Othorn on the other hand goes 8Hz lower and it reached a max Spl of around 137 dB/1 m. Also, on the specs of TH118 from Danley they say it has 137 dB cont. Taking into acount the compression for the driver in the Keystone, at 1800 watts as Walter measured that seems to be a very real, easy to verify value. Also I trust Ricci's measurements so if he says his sub gives that Spl, it does.

So, now, the questions:

1. Is the 21sw152 driver that much more powerfull to gain 6 dB more at higher freq than the 18sw115, even if it is tuned 8Hz lower

2.where does Danley take their nubers from? Because from what i see, the xoc1 design is preety much the same and it has around 6 dB less continous output

3. Is there a company that takes into account power compressio? Because I can't find any

4. Which should be better in a small space af around 300sqm beetwen 2 Keystone or 2 Othorn both with 18sw115.

 

 

Paul

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Which is better is up to you. Some like to have four subs per side under a SH96 for instance. Some like two have a pair of subs. Not many have a single sub unless this is just for fun at normal levels. Not PA.

 

I dont ever really pay attention do Danley's max numbers. So when it comes down to it is is mainly a question of what music are you playing and how low do you need to go. The Xoc1 is a great sub option if you dont need anything lower than 35hz as such. BUT the Xoc1 was design from a need for a flat to 35hz with four subwoofers.  Ricci's design would be more like flat to 27/8hz with four.

 

Take a look at simulations and see which you like best. If I wanted to only have 35hz and use an 18" I would pick the Xoc1's design. If I wanted to go much lower I would use the Othorn. Use the adapter plate on the Othorn for the 18 and then when you can find a 21" buy one.

 

Always hard to say what is best to one person verse another.

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I know it is imposible to say what one wants. Now lets think. I will use 2 subs with 2 tops made with 2 B&C 15 coax with mostly dance music indoors in a small place. I will build for sure a pair of Othorns until summer but for now I have to build something that i will use with one INuke 6000. So I am mostly inclined to do a pair of keystones.

But, for start, I am curious about how come the Othorn got 7 dB more than the Keystone. AND 8 hz extension.

I will also instal in a small Pub next month a pair of TH118 with 4 SH 100 with their branded Crest amps and I should see what they are made of.

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Also, I am playing with HR and I want to see what could I get from using a 21SW152 in a TH the size of Gh. In fact it will be 48*48*24 inches made for permanent instals And I was thinking at a simple layout, like the KS. I was thinking for it to have the same extension as Othorn or less at around 30 Hz.

But I am just staring to learn to use HR so it is hard for me to really get it done.

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So, I've built a pair of Xoc's TH18 with 18Sw115 and damn, they are cool. I installed them for two months in a bar where I will finally put a pair of Danley Th118 so I will be able to compare them directly in the same positions.

I have already the wood for one Othorn but I dont have the time and also I have to wait 1.5 months for the 21Sw152 driver to be available here.

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Next will be the Othorn and then (at least a year from now) I will try one of my own, an extremely big one(60*60*32), 29 hz tune, with 2 21Ipal and one M-Drive, two alluminum heathsinks for the divers chambers. I hope I will get the funds for this one.

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Yes, it really is the going thing. Modifiing the parameters of the drivers, I managed to squeeze some serious SPL from a single enclosure and a devastating power from 4.

I hope I will get this project approved, because the client want's either 16 QSC GP218 with 8 PL380 (around 55000 Euros incl. taxes) or 4 of mine active which will cost him a little more than half of that and will need a much smaller power generator for them, also.

Single large FLH with 34 hz, 3 order BW at xmax with around 8KW/driver

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4 pieces 31hz, 24dB/oct BW at x-max, around 7Kw/driver

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16 QSC GP-218 with 1400 watt/ driver at xmax

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Single dual driver or single with one driver? 2pi?

 

Funny because I had done the very same thing with my dual driver and single driver designs. IPAL was a monster but 152 still looked great also in the same cabinet. SW152 could use a smaller mouth while the IPAL looked better with a larger mouth. I think I was also some where around a similar SPL. Figured I would build a single dual driver FLH or Hyrbid design. This would just be for outdoors and just creating something plain crazy. Hybrid needed much less wattage per driver than the FLH. Hybrid being a FLH with a ported rear chamber.

 

BUT anyways I look forward to hearing more about your design.

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Single with dual 21Ipal. I am a Powersoft dealer so with some effort I could get the Ipal at the same price as the MRSP od the 21SW152. But i had to slightly twitch the Re of the driver to get a more linear response.I have to learn Akabak to sim this box because it will be expensive and I don't want to funk it up ;)plus the DPC from Powersoft . I have to learn a lot ...

I've just compared the two th18 with 2 nexo ps15 and i can say that they really sound the same. Mine were used on a btidged powersoft K6 in paralel 4 Ohms and the nexos with NXamp4*4, one per ch. Mine seemed to have more directivity and was shakind things more at 31 hz. I couldn't take measurements at high SPLs vecause mi mic starts clipping at 112 dB...:(

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Yes that would be eight Ipal's and what ever for amps. EXPENSIVE. LOL

 

An Ipal cost me about 1150 each and 152 $700. SO for now I just try and design for both drivers to work in the same design. But unfortunately for me wood is the most costly thing here. Wood sheets cost about 100 per sheet or more. So thats why I have never gotten started on any of my larger horn designs yet.

 

I do find it fascinating that your design has very similar SPL as mine. I was hoping for 140db out of one driver using the IPAL but the downside is you need a monster amp to power this driver. SO no go yet.

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 But unfortunately for me wood is the most costly thing here. Wood sheets cost about 100 per sheet or more. So thats why I have never gotten started on any of my larger horn designs yet.

 

I do find it fascinating that your design has very similar SPL as mine. I was hoping for 140db out of one driver using the IPAL but the downside is you need a monster amp to power this driver. SO no go yet.

Yes, the I was thinking to use the M-drive module for both drivers. 

The wood is a bit expensive here to but I managed to find a guy who knows a guy who knows another..you Know ;) so I can get a 5*5 BB/CP ply for 30$. As for starting to build the Giant Sub, I will wayt until someone take's the bait and gives me the funds to try this sort of projects.

 

Now I will post some measurements I made with REW for the subs

This are the two subs with 2 Arcline 6 from void at 4 meters on axis (near the bar where most people stay)

post-3306-0-52171300-1455360916_thumb.jpg

 

Xoc1 left side 1 meter

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Xoc 1 right side 1 meter

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Sub has 29 hz 18dB/oct HP BW and 48dB/oct 100 hz LP 

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Hello,


 


 I am also building some TH18 XOC1 cabinets.  I will be trying the 18IPAL and comparing to the standard 115.  Do you have details of the throat V boards you have made from your throat picture?


Thanks in advance,

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Hello,

I am also building some TH18 XOC1 cabinets. I will be trying the 18IPAL and comparing to the standard 115. Do you have details of the throat V boards you have made from your throat picture?

Thanks in advance,

Hello,

I have a problem with it. Try to put only two pieces instead 3 because I have a big hump at 53 Hz yhat I belive it is from that cone correction.fs at 35Hz and more than 1 dB sensityvity bellow TH118. So it is not that close.. IT IS possible that I made a mistake when building it. I will take some measurements after the Easter camparing the original with this one

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post-3306-0-78100500-1462020903_thumb.jpg

So, after spending some time with both the Danley TH118 and the xoc1 th18, I can say that there is no major difference between them. Only one dB more from Danley before it starts to distort badly, but I couldn't hear the difference.

Here are the measurements taken close mic, in the exactly the same position, on the wall bracket, inside the pub.

 

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Thanks for posting that set of measurements. Is there a high pass engaged on those?

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No, it is all-pass. But the sub is at 3 meters from the ground and there is a glass wall behind the subwoofer. Also, a part of the ceilling is made from drywall so there is a big loss in low frequency but it is a small space so there is lots of headroom to spare. And I found out that the 53 Hz peak is from a vent hole resonance and the thing is that there are two exactly in the same position from both subs.

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Thanks. Looks like they are very close comparatively judging from the measurements and your opinion. That's good news for DIYers.

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attachicon.gifxoc1 vs danley th118.jpg

So, after spending some time with both the Danley TH118 and the xoc1 th18, I can say that there is no major difference between them. Only one dB more from Danley before it starts to distort badly, but I couldn't hear the difference.

Here are the measurements taken close mic, in the exactly the same position, on the wall bracket, inside the pub.

Hello,

That is great results indeed. Nice work.

  So you recommend going with the three board CC as measured with your current design?  Is that with the B&C-115?

Kind Regards,

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Hello,

That is great results indeed. Nice work.

So you recommend going with the three board CC as measured with your current design? Is that with the B&C-115?

Kind Regards,

Yes, I am glad I built this design and it seems that the cone correction was a good aproximation. But, since the last year I started to improve sound systems in clubs and venues and I used and heard lots of them. And after listening this month subs like Outline Lab21, JBL VTX G28, Coda, Aurasound, The Danley BC218 and this weekend the KV2 VHD 2.21 and 4.21 I realized that when you can go flat to 30 Hz or lower, everything changes and the music is more incisive and enveloping. And more FUN! So now I want to build the Othorn or something larger and more powerfull that can go at least flat to 32hz. And I think the jump from 77 Kg to 100+ kg will not be that much, eapecially when I instal the system.for long periods of time

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With the modern drivers and amplifier available, I don't consider a bass cabinet a "real" subwoofer unless it will produce a powerful and clean 30Hz at minimum. I shoot for honest 25-30Hz output anymore or I consider it a bass bin and not a sub. You do sacrifice sensitivity and loudness by going for deeper extension of course but we've had designs that can do extremely loud 40-60Hz for years to that's old hat.

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Hello,

I agree that having a true subwoofer efficient below 40Hz is needed for todays EDM and such. EDM has signals as low as 20Hz, with harmonics even lower. I was planning on using the TH18 40-150Hz, and building Ricci's Ghorn for 20-40Hz. (to replace reflex) I have found that it is better to keep the <40Hz to its own dedicated sub, as the volume the driver cone needs to displace is double going from 40-30Hz, and double again for 20Hz. So doppler distortion is inevitable if trying to cover that entire range with one sub. I have a 4 way DBX4820 crossed over at 40, 150, 800Hz.

Kind Regards,

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Yes, I am glad I built this design and it seems that the cone correction was a good aproximation. But, since the last year I started to improve sound systems in clubs and venues and I used and heard lots of them. And after listening this month subs like Outline Lab21, JBL VTX G28, Coda, Aurasound, The Danley BC218 and this weekend the KV2 VHD 2.21 and 4.21 I realized that when you can go flat to 30 Hz or lower, everything changes and the music is more incisive and enveloping. And more FUN! So now I want to build the Othorn or something larger and more powerfull that can go at least flat to 32hz. And I think the jump from 77 Kg to 100+ kg will not be that much, eapecially when I instal the system.for long periods of time

How did you like the BC218?

 

Always thought about building one large sub for fun in my garage. Then have it on casters and roll it out when wanting to wake up the neighborhood. LOL. Also looked like it may go low enough for me to be used as a cinema sub for me outdoors also. Havent gotten a chance to hear one but love the specs. Even if they may be inflated. 

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