maxmercy Posted October 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 The Avengers 2 7.1 track peaks at -3dB on LCR and LFE, and slightly lower on the surrounds, with the rear surrounds having the lowest levels. I'll take that ANY DAY over the clipped mess TF4, Godzilla, PacRim and ST2:Into Deafness were. While they could have pushed things up a tad, it is way easier to turn my volume control up than it is to undo a clipped mess. With the -3dB peaks, it's as if they asked us to BEQ. The content down below is there. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKtheater Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 I just watched this again but this time 10 dB louder than Mad Max and the bass really hits hard in my room. To me many Atmos mixes are just louder than others and get lots of credit. Play this movie at the same levels and it delivers. Still not 5 star, I voted 4 stars and buy. I bought this on Vudu and blu and for people on the fence and a big screen, the blu is much better. Anyways, I usually watch movies with my MV set to -7 dB and LOTR is loud at this level, Mad Max has to be played at -10 dB and to get A:AoU to sound similar in Spl I watched it at 0 dB. I never touched any settings except MV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaea Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Ironic, It's usually this forum where everyone says the bass is disappointing on a movie, where on AVS people are saying how it's so awesome cause their 10" ported SVS sub knocked their teeth out. On this flick it's the reverse. The AVS guys are crucifying the audio on this one, and the guys here are saying it's respectable. Ha, I guess the AVS general rank and file are afraid to turn up their MV? I didn't see this one in the theater, and was hoping to watch it at home. I'll probably rent it first at redbox and see how it plays out. I've read people saying the dialogue is muffled, and the surrounds are inactive too (aside from the bass is too light) --- at least on the avsthread. Did you guys notice anything regarding those complaints? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toe Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Ironic, It's usually this forum where everyone says the bass is disappointing on a movie, where on AVS people are saying how it's so awesome cause their 10" ported SVS sub knocked their teeth out. On this flick it's the reverse. The AVS guys are crucifying the audio on this one, and the guys here are saying it's respectable. Ha, I guess the AVS general rank and file are afraid to turn up their MV? I didn't see this one in the theater, and was hoping to watch it at home. I'll probably rent it first at redbox and see how it plays out. I've read people saying the dialogue is muffled, and the surrounds are inactive too (aside from the bass is too light) --- at least on the avsthread. Did you guys notice anything regarding those complaints? In all fairness, a number of guys over there (Ralph, Dave Vaughn and other various members going off the thread posts) DID try bumping the volume and still found the audio inconsistent and the execution spotty. The audio complaints are not strictly bass related. I haven't watched it yet, but curious to check it out and will bump the volume 8-10db from the get-go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan611 Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Ironic, It's usually this forum where everyone says the bass is disappointing on a movie, where on AVS people are saying how it's so awesome cause their 10" ported SVS sub knocked their teeth out. On this flick it's the reverse. The AVS guys are crucifying the audio on this one, and the guys here are saying it's respectable. Ha, I guess the AVS general rank and file are afraid to turn up their MV? I didn't see this one in the theater, and was hoping to watch it at home. I'll probably rent it first at redbox and see how it plays out. I've read people saying the dialogue is muffled, and the surrounds are inactive too (aside from the bass is too light) --- at least on the avsthread. Did you guys notice anything regarding those complaints? Dialogue is clean, not at all muffled. My surrounds were very active. The only thing I've noticed being off is some of the sound effects seem to be not right. But, overall it sounds good with the MV turned up at least +8 over your own personal "normal" listening levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKtheater Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Yes, vocals seem muted because of levels, they recorded this low compared to most and really low compared to atmos movies. Usually I only need to change the MV around 3 dB but not for this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmoney Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 vocals for me were very crsip....it was the effects used sounded muffled (for lack of better term)..and the surround use was great and plentiful...just not very punchy. I watched at -2db (normal level is -10bd)...thoroughly enjoyed the bass...leaps and bounds better than the first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted October 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 The BEQ is even better: JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infrasonic Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Now that looks pretty legit. Glad to hear there is no clipping in this one. That's worth feeling good about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 I was one of those pretty disappointed when I saw the graph that it wasn't full bandwidth. After watching it though, I really enjoyed it and yes, I too bumped the system up a good amount, probably close to the 8dB recommended. It was a still a fun ride, with some of my favorite modern action characters, and I don't feel one bit sad I spent the money to add it to my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossobass Dave Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 Here's a direct comparison of two similar scenes from Avengers and Avengers: Age Of Ultron, with the <20 Hz content boxed: For those who whined that we were being purists or overly critical of A; now that we have A:AoU with an additional octave for A/B comparison... there's a no contest difference in the presentation. Add yet another octave and the movies become world class experiences, end of discussion. Regarding the earlier comment about noting the offset when capping spectrographs, here's my reply to that subject from a over a year ago on the subject: There is no "hot" or "cold" with the color scale. The selection of colors, number of colors and range is infinite. I can leave the offset at '0' and change the scale range to -30 to 0dBFS and get exactly the same result as I do leaving the scale range as-is and increasing the offset. In addition to those choices, I can compress the color scale or expand it. The point of the spectrogram scale is to get as many different colors in the range as possible within the color scheme most members are used to. Why have 10 color bands if you're only going to use 4 of them? I adjust the offset so that it's above the noise floor and there is one color per 5dB, give-or-take. Again, if I set the offset to '0', that will change to around 1/2 the resolution. That's the reasoning I have for my settings; the highest possible frequency resolution and color-to-amplitude resolution. Just had some time this morning and thought I'd post this since I've had it sitting on my desktop for too long. Of course, those who prefer to see SL caps with the settings focused on 0dBFS or time domain resolution may feel free to post those caps to their heart's content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKtheater Posted October 5, 2015 Report Share Posted October 5, 2015 The vocals are very clear and crisp when turned up, the movie really moves me and the seats at levels we expect. I think the peak at 30hz is really throwing this movie off for people because it feels weighty to me. Is that a word? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjrubes Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 I have it ordered from Amazon so I'll be able to give it a spin this weekend. I saw it in the theaters and, even then, I thought it had some good LFE potential. Given what you guys are experiencing I'm looking forward to checking it out even though I have nowhere near the bass capability that many of you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted October 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 I also wanted to mention that this is a memorable occasion for Max, Nube and myself. The original Avengers movie was steeply filtered at 30 Hz. I mentioned in the AVS MWB thread at the time that I would refrain from even renting the flick because it was my only viable response to such a negligent audio production in a 1/4 billion dollar product. We were severely pissed on in that thread for not agreeing with the herd. And, being that we were the top contributors to the actual posted data in the forum thread, we decided that wasting time counter posting against flat out derision from the peanut gallery for posting the facts was a bit much. It was then we decided to move our stuff here. Thanks to Josh & Kyle for their support and great space. I hope it's worked out to their advantage as well. So, the original Avengers soundtrack started it all. Great to see the huge improvement in Avengers Deux, moving the filter down an octave. Even though Gwyneth and Natalie were only mentioned in the script and missing from the flick, and I def missed Tom Hiddleston as Loki who is also MIA in this one, the movie is a classic, 4 stars and a strong buy, IMO. Maybe the next one will arrive in full bandwidth glory. Agreed. If not full bandwidth, then like this one; not clipped and with the ULF only shelved, able to be brought back to a degree. I sincerely hope another TIH soundtrack will be coming from the Marvel crew. The Captain America movies seem to come the closest. Does anyone else notice that in some of the actor's voices, the dialogue mics were being over-driven? I seemed to notice it most on Hawkeye's voice. Anyone else catch that? The main thread is now 3 years old....wow, that flew by. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 So, what are we saying here. Are we saying that the bass is there? It's just that the entire sound track is recorded so low that everything, including the bass that it seems weak and all that's needed is to turn it up? Or are we saying that there are other problems with sound track as well. Just an uneven flow with sounds that seem out of place. It seems some people notice things like surrounds or vocals being off and others don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan611 Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 So, what are we saying here. Are we saying that the bass is there? It's just that the entire sound track is recorded so low that everything, including the bass that it seems weak and all that's needed is to turn it up? Or are we saying that there are other problems with sound track as well. Just an uneven flow with sounds that seem out of place. It seems some people notice things like surrounds or vocals being off and others don't. There is bass, and a pretty decent amount. I noticed no issues with vocals; however, it does seem like some of the special effects are not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKtheater Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 The first thing you notice when watching this movie is the volume is low on all sounds. It is just a low recording. It is pretty simple, play a recent loud movie like Mad Max and then right after play this movie without touching any settings and it will be muted in comparison. You then keep turning the Master Volume up and notice the effects and vocals never seem too loud so keep cranking until it matches Mad Max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 There is bass, and a pretty decent amount. I noticed no issues with vocals; however, it does seem like some of the special effects are not right. Well, it will be interesting when I watch it. I may wait on the purchase though. It's just odd. How can something like this pass the final cut. I am curious to hear what special effects are not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastAudio Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Well, it will be interesting when I watch it. I may wait on the purchase though. It's just odd. How can something like this pass the final cut. I am curious to hear what special effects are not right. It likely passed due to the fact that they recorded it low and as a result there is no evident clipping in any channel. You have the headroom now to crank it yourself, as opposed to dealing with a severely jacked up mess the likes of Star Trek into Darkness or TF4, which neither should have EVER passed final cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 It likely passed due to the fact that they recorded it low and as a result there is no evident clipping in any channel. You have the headroom now to crank it yourself, as opposed to dealing with a severely jacked up mess the likes of Star Trek into Darkness or TF4, which neither should have EVER passed final cut. TBH, this is what I kind of asked for before when STiD and others came out so I am not that upset. As long as most of the bass is there and it's a good soundtrack over all. I can live with turning up the volume if I have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted October 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 The bass is there if you turn it up +4 to +7dB. I am nit-picking about the voices. The surround work is great. The track is filtered, so some effects that would have a lot of heft are robbed and seem 'out of place', no different than the first Avengers film. If you do not like the film and the series, I would rent it first. If this were a stand-alone film without ties to a larger universe, it would not get this much attention, and a month from now nube and I would be asking people to vote. I like the movie, and it shows you a little more every time you watch, more layers present than just the visuals and throwaway jokes. It is no bass monster, but I really like the sound design for the enhanced and Ultron. It feels very much like a comic book with a little more 'cred'. Marvel did a good job with this series. Grounding it in technology with Iron Man, and then moving forward to the magic and and other unbelievable stuff once they got buy-in, you can give most of that credit to Kenneth Branagh and Louis Leterrier, who did great jobs with Thor and TIH. Thor was the big leap off Earth, and people bought in. I also like that the film makes fun of itself at the same time for some of the ridiculousness that is onscreen. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Thanks. I was sort of OK with the first Avengers movie and first Thor movie. I enjoy the entire Marvel Universe so I will probably pick this up if all I have to do is turn the volume louder. I still don't know why they do this kind of thing. I don't want to get on a rant so I will just leave right now . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted October 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 By all means, rant away. I think that with these world-wide blockbusters, the sound team has to sometimes make the soundtrack for the 'least common denominator'. Rarely can any cinema monitor under 25Hz, most cut off at 30Hz or higher, and many movie houses overseas are not even that. So you get big effects at 30-40Hz. There is content below, but it is much easier to simply throw a filter on it and know your equipment will not fail than leave the ULF in and roll the dice, knowing that you are paying thousands of dollars an hour to use a mixing facility. You would think that the ported subs have HPFs built into the amps, but most of us have all head blown subs in theaters. I listened to the BEQ version at the equivalent of -7dBRef, and it sounded just right, with thunderous hits. I usually listen to films at -10dBRef. The BEQ version easily makes this film 4 Star if not higher. I'll post the filters needed on the BEQ thread. JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDuke Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I just don't understand the louder is better and let's just cut the bottom out completely argument. I am not in the industry so I may be talking out of my ass, but I refuse to believe that doing things this way is easier. We have other examples of when it is done right. WOTW, EOT, Elysium, Oblivion. Plus others like OHF, just to name a few. And I am not just talking bass with those movies. All of the sound great throughout the film. Why the hell then can't these other movies get it right for crying out loud. I mean how come there isn't a damn standard for level(to avoid clipping) and extension(so it goes below 30hz). I would really like all these films to be great. What get's me is, and I may be wrong here, is the stringent standards for video. With 4k, there are more standards and acronyms then I can keep up with, They seem to add new ones every week and all video has to follow all of them other wise they are not considered %100 of what the standard is. Why the F can't audio get their ass in gear and do the same thing. Movies are typically made with a theatrical audio mix and a home mix right? Why can't they make a full range mix(i.e 5-10hz-30kh) for a movie. If the theater can't handle that, then just shelve the low stuff so you don't blow the speaker and take out the shelf for the home version. If the home speakers can't reproduce it, oh well, you will just miss it and never know it was there. Just don't make it so loud that it destroys everything in it's path. Have a set SPL for every movie, A STANDARD. I don't know what that would be but I refuse to believe that it can't be done. But having all these sound mixers just doing what they please is not helping. With clipping and steep filters killing movies, how can that be good? As I mentioned before, the video has to be a certain color palette, brightness etc.. It is always measured in that Triangle(which I still don't know how to read). How come audio is getting the short end of the stick. I know about giving directors and sound mixers leeway on certain things, but there needs to be some checks and balances that says to them, "you know what, this is going to sound like crap of we do it this way. Let's try this." I just don't understand how there can be so much difference in this regard. I guess that's enough of a rant. Sorry but I had to get that off my chest. And Max said I could do it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmercy Posted October 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 One of our members thought the audio on Interstellar was harsh and actually went to see some of the film at a reference IMAX theater, where the presentation was the same. When asked why it was so harsh, he was told 'director's intent'. While older, this article addresses it: http://filmsound.org/randythom/loud-movies.htm Here's a newer conversation from mixers themselves: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-production-forum/768373-cinema-playback-levels-mixing-again.html When they talk about mixing at 'Fader 7', that is what we call 'Reference Level'. There are hardly any theaters that playback this loud due to customer complaints. So the mixers, KNOWING their content will be played back at a lower level, sometimes mix at this lower level. To compensate, the sound team and director make the mix hotter, knowing it will be played back lower. If the theater owners/managers get complaints, they lower the volume again. You can see the vicious cycle play out. Now we get a BD with a horribly clipped and compressed soundtrack, that if we play at Reference, it sound like screaming. Here's some talk about fader settings: http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f1/t007403.html A few years ago, IMAX/LieMAX calibrated many of their auditoriums to the same standard for playback, using a version of Audyssey MultEQ-XT as their correction algorithm. I saw 'Skyfall', in one of those auditoriums. It was simply painful. There used to be a list of the IMAX theaters that were Audyssey enabled, and sure enough, the one I saw it in had been calibrated with Audyssey. IMAX must not just 'set and forget' levels anymore, as other presentations I have been to have been much more reasonable dB-wise, as I saw the first Avengers at a LieMAX. The simple fact is that directors and exhibitors have to get on the same page. The director gets the final word on the sound and level in production, the exhibitor get the final word on sound and level in the theater. Some directors like their films loud. Most exhibitors know that could destroy revenue. It only takes one bad, loud experience to make a customer choose another theater for good. We are at the very end of that chain, but we have something theater-goers don't. A volume control. It is also interesting to note that lower budget films often have better, unclipped, full-range sound. Most of these films have 'unproven' directors who may actually listen to their sound team, as opposed to telling their sound team what to do. Some directors cannot keep their hands off the knobs, and that's how we got Tron:Legacy's every-channel-but-LFE-clipped presentation, but only for BluRay. GREAT READING: http://www.filmsound.org/randythom/ http://www.cinematechnologymagazine.com/pdf/movie%20loudness_Cinema%20June%2000.pdf JSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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